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08:00
i.e. make it linkable to the standard library if desired.
That’s not an answer to what I asked.
Because it would help make C++ be more generalized and "friendly"
I’m not asking the details of what you want. But whatever it is you want, why should it fall within the SC’s lap?
It would increase it's competitiveness
C++ is not a product, the SC is not a company.
08:01
And yet they still try to take cues from other programming languages
@LucDanton The guy himself in the video said that they want to remain relevant and competitve
It’s one guy. Not the whole of the SC. (Not to mention the ISO, national bodies etc..)
Although I don't think C++ should have an absolutely standard graphics library, I think it would be helpful to have a standard graphical I/O library or something
And isn't that guy chair of...
08:03
He can’t overrule the votes.
But he's also chair of one of the 4 major groups
19 secs ago, by Luc Danton
He can’t overrule the votes.
he only gets one vote
@LucDanton They had a vote on this right?
Where is it?...
nowhere because it's in a study group
it hasn't been formally proposed AFAIK
08:05
@Rapptz Oh, but there IS a study group then...
not particularly special to have one
I never said that it needs to be.
It wasn't an attack.
Wonder when the next meeting is
@Rapptz Next month
Kansas.
Perhaps they could find a way to wrap Vulkan or something.
meh.
Perhaps that belongs in languages like Java
This is exactly what I mean.
yeah we know
That's Herb's crazy proposal.
That's the SG I'm talking about.
SG13.
08:12
@Rapptz It's pretty rational though
No it isn't.
Why?
It's a waste of committee time.
@Rapptz That's not a reason.
Alright I'll bite.
The proposal is based on Cairo, a C library.
It hopes to magically make an OOP based interface for this library.
Something that anyone and their mother can do themselves without the committee spoonfeeding this.
No one has implemented this magical OOP based interface as far as I'm aware.
For all I know, Cairo itself has been updated to a different version than referenced from the proposal since it has been made.
It's a waste of time.
08:14
@Rapptz ...
Your argument is disjointed; you make no direct connection to the original statement:
C++/Graphics is bad because _____
I'm not going to entertain this much longer.
4 mins ago, by Cinch
This is exactly what I mean.
Standardisation has massive implications and has a lot of political aspects involved.
There are a lot of things that would be nice to have but shouldn't be standardised.
@Rapptz Why don't you directly answer the question?
I am answering the question.
08:16
C++/Graphics shouldn't be standardized because ___
You're asking the wrong question.
You're asking "Why is a C++ graphic library bad?"
I'm answering "Why is a standard C++ graphic library bad?"
@Rapptz So it's bad because ____
Fucking. Read.
I'm done replying.
All you basically said is that "oh, it's bad because it has massive political implications and shouldn't be done and it's easy anyways so why do it"
@Cinch Nope.
08:18
And then "Cairo might be outdated so it's not worth looking at anymore"
@Cinch You might want to reread... like everything @Rapptz said.
>
Standardisation has massive implications and has a lot of political aspects involved.
There are a lot of things that would be nice to have but shouldn't be standardised.
Right?
> everything
Not a fragment picked specifically to ridicule what he said.
Also known as cherry picking, quote mining, etc.
gah mysticial you and your global lookup table
08:23
Bah.
bookmark?
Trying to bookmark the range.
While thinking about SG13 I was wondering if we have anything standardised that's based on an existing cross platform C library.
Closest thing is those interfaces that kinda use Posix as a lowest common denominator, no? (More API than library though.)

C++

30 mins ago, 29 minutes total – 93 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 12 secs ago by Cinch

Right?
@LucDanton Sure but POSIX stuff (e.g. pthread) has a non-POSIX alternative like Windows thread.
Why 'but'?
08:26
All I'm saying is that having a standard graphical basic I/O library would probably be great for the future for the language if it is both minimal and not essential
well I'm just restating your parenthesised statement I suppose
it's more of an API than a library
@Rapptz But the C++ standard is basically an API
and different platforms (in this case Windows) has a different API
@Cinch It is not C however.
@LucDanton How is that relevant?
08:27
Read everything.
2 mins ago, by Cinch

C++

30 mins ago, 29 minutes total – 93 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 12 secs ago by Cinch

4 mins ago, by Rapptz
While thinking about SG13 I was wondering if we have anything standardised that's based on an existing cross platform C library.
The proposal is based on Cairo. I'm just arguing about the idea.
I don't care about the Cairo part.
All I care is about is Section III: Motivation and Scope
you can have the best rationale in the world but if your proposal sucks then it sucks
@Rapptz That doesn't disprove the rationale
08:29
and the "proposal" means everything
not just the fancy marketing
The proposal can always be replaced by another.
The politician's syllogism, also known as the politician's logic or the politician's fallacy, is a logical fallacy of the form: We must do something This is something Therefore, we must do this. The politician's fallacy was identified in a 1988 episode of the BBC television political sitcom Yes, Prime Minister titled "Power to the People", and has taken added life on the Internet. The syllogism, invented by fictional British civil servants, has been quoted in the real British Parliament. The syllogism has also been quoted in American political discussion. In Yes, Prime Minister, the term is discussed...
@LucDanton "This something" isn't arbitrary
There is a rationale for a basic graphical I/O library for C++
"basic graphical I/O library for C++" being the thing
@Cinch So something must be done, right?
I understand that C++ should be a very light language with a focus on minimal BS.
@LucDanton It's not a must but why not do it?
If you were to ask me, I'd give reasons like:
08:31
Because we don’t want just anything.
@LucDanton Apply the analogy harder
I don't see it yet
There is no analogy.
I can give you a scenario.
@Rapptz k
shoot:---
But I won't because I'm not a spoonfeeder
08:33
I don't understand what's with the stuff about spoonfeeding.
I know that programmers want to be independent but you sacrifice much progress by making it hard for people to be proficient in something.
You never do anything for yourself (including reading). Everything has to be spoonfed to you.
@LucDanton Why do anything for yourself if all the hard work has been done and there is an easier way to do something?
@Cinch Who are you referring to when you say 'you'?
Is reading comprehension that hard
@Cinch Because I don’t owe you anything. I don’t have to explain anything to you.
08:35
@LucDanton 'you' being the general second-person used in colloquial public speaking and argumentative discussion
Does the general public owe you anything?
@LucDanton as in.
As in what?
@Cinch Alright alright. Whatever. I'm bored anyway.
'Anything' meaning 'anything'.
08:36
Fine if you want me to speak more formally then let's do this
Suppose you want an XML library to be added to the standard library.
What do you do?
"Why must one try to solve problems of critical importance when those problems have already been solved?"
@Rapptz I do not.
smh
@Cinch I don’t know. That’s your prerogative. All the same I still have no incentive to spoonfeed you. And I won’t.
@Rapptz But if I play along with the hypothetical situation
@LucDanton "You" as in me or "you" as in the general case of "you"?
@Rapptz I would create a study case for it and do a survey or something
08:38
btw @LucDanton how would you do 'global' look-up tables (e.g. some cache) in a header only library? The cache is only used internally.
'You' for you and 'I' for me.
@LucDanton You are not arguing over me and my ability to program here.
Right.
We are arguing over the idea of "spoonfeeding and learning"
So don't mention me or you and we're good.
It was about spoonfeeding you, by me. Not anyone else.
08:39
@LucDanton It is indeed my prerogative
However, a standard but impose its methodologies on its recipients no matter how generalized or light it is by nature of the concept of standardization.
A standard implies that it is made to be used in the process of standardization of many different scattered methodlogies
Therefore we must make a clear decision on the philosophy and direction of C++ for further standardization and new proposals
Therefore, I will impose my own exclusive opinion based on the core values of ease of learning and ease of use on C++/Graphics for the betterment of C++ by measurement using the core value.
In summary, we will conclude:
1) We can all have our own opinions but for the "progress" of C++ as a standard, by its nature of a standard, we must impose a certain view, viewpoint, philosophy, methodologies, framework, paradigm, etc. on the users of C++.
You have said nothing useful.
2) This imposing of concepts on C++ users will be based on the core value that we improve the ease of use and ease of learning of C++, which is again, arbitrary and personal, but I believe is a good starting point for a core value to measure what kinds of things will make C++ "better"
@LucDanton This is foundation for the argument.
Henceforth I will engage in the initial proposition of the argument:
@LucDanton proper term is weasel words :p
C++/Graphics will improve the ease of use and ease of learning of C++ because:
@Cinch The chat is not your blog platform. Can you post this somewhere else please?
08:46
my gr8 question got ignored
@Rapptz due to the big walls of text
and the vidya, too, but mostly the walls
> I would create a study group or case and then perform a survey on interest, polling large communities of C++ programmers (i.e. large GitHub projects and large companies that use C++ in their work)
you know where to find it!
the vidya don’t wait yo
08:47
I would also publish a rationale and try to convince others and garner support for it.
it's 4:50 AM
Morning
morning
What's up?
08:49
Something about lookup tables.
I think I know what to do
@AndyProwl C++/Graphics--yes or no and WHY?
@Rapptz What is your reply?
next question?
I am not playing that game anymore
@Cinch Yes in principle, no to the current proposal
@Rapptz Therefore my opponent ratifies and forfeits the argument.
08:50
I'm sure you feel very smart right now.
@Rapptz No it's just I'm making my language very mechanical and clear.
Now back to normal.
user1804599
Good morning.
@AndyProwl I don't know what Cairo is.
You tried too hard and ended up looking worse.
gj
@Rapptz That is your opinion and is not necessarily a consensus.
@AndyProwl But I really really like the idea
08:51
We can have the other person weigh in, @LucDanton and then we will reach a consensus.
seems like there's been some derping or something
always a fun time in lounge cpp
@Rapptz I do not agree that two people agreeing is a "general opinion"
@Rapptz Everything that needs to be in a header but is not public I put in a detail namespace.
what about lookup tables?
08:52
2 out of 3 is a good majority
@AndyProwl What derping.
@LucDanton but muh global
@Rapptz There are 5+ here
mutating* global
Also I'm going to stop being a bitch now.
08:53
Finally.
i started having different names for detail namespaces since i got a collision in detail { ... }
@Rapptz Yeah sorry.
People don't ever debate formally.
true story
That wasn't a formal debate
@Rapptz I guess I stopped at 'look-up tables' :Þ Does it matter though? It’s guarded behind functions right?
08:54
@Rapptz Well I tried.
Have you ever done formal debate competitively?
@gnzlbg I think it's a reference to this
@Cinch Nobody believes that.
@Cinch Yes.
@Rapptz Oh cool!
High school or college?
Latter.
@LucDanton I was thinking I could make it function local static.
08:55
@Rapptz Interesting.
Since it's only used in one place.
I got to compete once and it was so freaking formal it was a bit harsh.
It was pretty funny though
can't you have in the header only library a function with a static variable inside?
@Rapptz I’m not sure what your problem is.
you can put the lookuptable inside
08:56
Nothing now.
My opponent for one round was like "because of X Y Z my opponent's first proposal is invalid, his second proposal is invalid, and his third is invalid and therefore his argument is invalid"
I thought it'd have to be in the detail namespace globally but I could just localise it to a single function so it isn't so bad
@Rapptz Why did you do that btw?
Oh okay. Header vs non-header isn’t too much of a factor on my end. I put things where they have to be. (So, prefer source but sometimes you can’t.)
sol::detail?
08:57
@LucDanton when can't you put it in a source file?
detail namespace is a common namespace for implementation details
it says "don't touch"
@Rapptz Makes sense. Cool.
@gnzlbg Off the top of my head templates and constexpr.
(We said 'mutating' so I guess the latter doesn’t apply here.)
i thought you were talking about global variables
Weren’t we?
08:58
template global variables?
you can instantiate them in a source file tho
doesn’t really work for a library if it’s meant to be used with client types

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