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20:00
@Cinch The only way I can see it doing that would be by convincing you very quickly that it's worthless, and you should use something else.
the only thing that "see results" means is that some dude already implemented all the hard stuff for you.
Why do you still not ignore Puppy, @Cinch?
copy > paste > commit
@Cinch You're not part of the professional world.
which you can do easily for pretty much anything that's already implemented in the language of choice.
20:00
edit > continue > commit
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because I consider Puppy a part of the programming world, and so I consider him important like anybody else.
@Rapptz Doesn't mean he can't be aware of facts about it.
@Rapptz neither are you
@Cinch Results are not "seen", at least not the vast majority of them. It's maintained for fifteen years.
Nobody should be ignored.
20:00
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You shouldn't generalise.
@Rapptz I'm not part of the Christian world yet I know more about the Bible and its history than most Christians.
@Rapptz Ever? :)
Yeah ever.
@BartekBanachewicz sick burn m8
I have a degree in getting results.
@Puppy That's not inherently a programming problem though. That's a management problem which has forced programmers to adapt and create durable code that needs to stand the test of time.
@Cinch That feeling will pass eventually, don't worry.
20:02
no, it's definitely a programming problem.
the problem is that you have to write programs that aren't shit.
k started shitstorm time to bail out
@Puppy And yes, very true as well. it is also a programming problem.
@BartekBanachewicz Wait!
@Puppy You're not a part of the "writing programs that aren't shit" world.
@BartekBanachewicz u troll lol
Why do we need to call anybody's stuff just "shit" and actually just tell them why to help everyone improve?
take this conversation elsewhere
like the JavaScript room
20:02
cos some people can't be helped
@Rapptz 1. Engage in conversation 2. Order people to take it elsewhere
Um.
well, their code isn't actually presented, so it's kinda difficult to be specific.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit :)
So I was going to rewrite my light-weight GUI system.
20:03
pub time bye
see ya m8
@LightnessRacesinOrbit bye
My Lua script looked something like this:
addWindow(name,x,y,w,h,prop1, prop2, prop3)
addButton(window, x,y,w,h)
addList(window,x,y,w,h)
I think this is ugly but it does work...
do you know what a data structure is?
it is stupendously ugly.
Lua provides a much nicer syntax you could support.
@BartekBanachewicz Uh... yes? Stacks, lists, classes, etc.?
20:05
Window {
     Button {5,3}
}
@Cinch Fail, x and y being separate arguments.
@Cinch no, just plain structures
@BartekBanachewicz That does actually look nicer.
It's just I'm unsure about how to do it.
Also, w and h. double fail;
I could go the JSON or XML way.
20:06
define a function called Window that takes a table.
@Cinch It's the same as Window({Button({5,3})}) in Lua
Don't do that.
Lua permits T { } as shorthand for T({})
Worst syntax.
for exactly this reason.
20:06
premake abuses the fuck out of it
Hm.
it's pretty shit in general but if you're trying to go declarative
@Rapptz shaddup
@Rapptz What's this?
@Rapptz The problem with Premake isn't that it does this, it's that it does it incorrectly.
20:06
I'm unsure about how to expose a nice API.
Hence 'abuse'.
wait wasn't Rapptz an advocate of YAML
@Cinch A Lua library that utterly failed to use this correctly.
I do feel like I should allow the user to do the x,y,w,h, thing.
But there needs to be a better way...
use named arguments in the table.
20:07
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
do you know what a data structure is?
Window {
     x = 5,
     y = 10
}
@Rapptz oh terribly sorry.
YAML hate high 5
lol I incidentally capitalized "Hate"
incidentally
Why the hell does Lua start tables with 1?
wtf.
20:08
this isn't too dissimilar to React.
@Cinch why don't you google that
thinking about it.
@Cinch Numeric argument lists suck anyway. Use named ones.
@Cinch Because Lua is shit
@Puppy ["one" = 1, "two" = 2, "three" = 4]
yay
Bah but Lua is too easy to use to call it bad.
20:09
lol
@Cinch Ease of use, and goodness, are completely different things.
Good quality metric
something is only really good if it's easy to produce good code in.
I like Lua.
I like trains.
But it does have issues.
user1804599
20:10
I like contract programming.
Lua avoids a lot of the crap JS has whilst retaining a lot of similarities I think
Not enough to say it sucks imo but they're there
the issues aren't terrible in small projects
Lua: JS but vastly less shitty (not that that's hard)
in bigger projects lack of static typing and proper libraries hurts
20:11
Interesting
for specific small scenarios it's fine
Lua could use more work, of course.
I'll have to read up on Data structures later.
JS has better implementations and a larger ecosystem
So there's that
ISTR that the official release still doesn't offer continue or something.
20:11
People have been making games in Love2D for a long time.
Maybe I'll just switch to a JS parser.
@CatPlusPlus [citation-needed] for better implementations
user1804599
Write Lua to JS compiler! :D
@CatPlusPlus The better JS implementations are literally based on LuaJIT.
Those are fairly big projects.
20:11
I don't care what they're based on
also JS is much more shit to embed properly
and the VMs are vastly bigger and harder to port
and it uses more RAM
well there are parts of Lua that I don't really like, like debugging.
@BartekBanachewicz not really
Check out duktape
Lua API is lol
@Puppy hey, ZeroBrane debugger is pretty nice
20:12
then again I don't recall if that was just a limitation of the environment that I was using it in
Such a sexy project duktape.org
JS engine in C, you can embed it in your project with two files
> Duktape is easy to integrate into a C/C++ project
> Duktape is easy to integrate into a C/C++ project:
shit
closed the tab.
user1804599
Alright.
20:13
same here
API isn't even that good.
Brought back some Lua API PTSD
oh gawd
the Lua API is such a tremendously huge amount of shit
20:13
THE PURITY OF C++ NAME MUST BE UPHELD
3
who thought that would be good? :(
how's your hobby game development @Cat
user1804599
Should CompareIntForEq instruction throw or UB when the operands aren't integers?
@CatPlusPlus AS IS TRADITION
when are we going to see a playable thing
20:14
@райтфолд IR validation failure?
user1804599
No, dynamic typing.
Around 2046
Ugh.
user1804599
But in some cases the compiler knows with certainty the type.
Fuck it, I'm staying with Lua.
20:14
you're p much good at this progamming thing then
Sol is too nice.
then you should obviously throw.
user1804599
And in that case it could generate other instructions.
you should educate others in programming chatrooms
Hm...
user1804599
20:14
So that comparing integers doesn't have to do a hash table lookup to find the correct overload of infix== first.
Yes yes you gotta make open projects because blah blah blah
hmmm
The problem is that I do want a nice declaration scheme, but I also want the option to close windows dynamically as well.
apparently throw std::runtime_error("fuck") is surprisingly common in the Wide codebase.
I'd probably not embed JS at all, but if I did I'd just go with V8
20:15
@Cinch You can just return a Window object from Window {}
user1804599
I'll make it UB.
user1804599
That way I can always transform it into a throw later.
@CatPlusPlus s/open/functioning/
@Puppy See, the problem is that the arguments go directly from Lua to C++
It's a very very thin interface.
I make them for work, a thing I'm being paid for
20:16
then you clearly need to thicken it
that's such a fuckign lame excuse
user1804599
I should write a function that does dynamic_cast with assert in debug mode and static_cast in release mode.
What excuse
I need alcohol
damn it
Oh hey CoreCLR builds on Linux and OSX
I just don't care very much to work outside of work
20:17
Yeah so...
What's lame is bringing that up constantly
I pretty much want to just create the framework in C++ and then allow Lua to script both logic and callbacks.
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus Does that include BCL?
Make projects or you can't say anything ;_;
Logic, callbacks, as well as define the stuff.
20:18
@райтфолд Only what's in mscorlib afaik
It's just I'm unsure about how to support UTF-8.
Is there a Boost lib for that?
CoreFX is the library
just Boost.Locale I guess
I really really want a cross-platform solution.
Or at least an external solution to bind into.
I.e. info goes out, info comes back in.
20:21
I found a public void Get... in our code today.
I think one guy writes 100% void ~returning~ stuff.
out params?
nope, dumb name
side effects is the only way he mutates state
don't you c# devs have fancy-schmancy property setters and getters
@JohanLarsson lmao
@CatPlusPlus yeah, that.
Stupid bullshit
20:25
@BartekBanachewicz I can show you things that you would wish you had not seen :)
user1804599
@Pris lol setters
@CatPlusPlus rant all you want
@JohanLarsson I'll pass
too busy existentially quantifying things
Do any of you use Geany as a general purpose text editor?
what's that
20:28
@Cinch Lua doesn't really support Unicode strings- from memory you can roundtrip UTF8 but none of their string functions actually understand it. Furthermore, there's basically no good solution to Unicode in C++.
@Pris I do.
@Puppy they added UTF-8 in 5.3
I like it... its nice and fast
I do because it came with Ubuntu and I find no reason to do anything else?
Yummm Pastrami.
20:28
@BartekBanachewicz That's not my problem though.
My problem is that I cannot grab Unicode input
or store it.
Text editors are Emacs, Vim, ST and maybe Atom
anything else is devils creation and you can't use it or you'll offend gods
@Puppy Lua strings are UTF-8 now.
@BartekBanachewicz Ah, I haven't been keeping up.
Lua 5.3 fixed a lot of issues with Lua imo.
@BartekBanachewicz I'd better stop using Sublime Text then, wouldn't want to get cursed by more gods.
20:30
There's a 64-bit integer now.
And 32-bit integers too
@Rapptz Do you plan to switch?
user1804599
@Rapptz Only one?
@Nooble what do you think ST means
@Cinch Sol already works on 5.3 out of the box.
Or well, it should.
@Rapptz Ah, good.
20:31
@BartekBanachewicz Something?
I'm in a mood to annoy people
my code doesn't work
I might switch to Atom for a bit
@BartekBanachewicz Emacs is not an editor - an editor is the one thing Emacs is not :P
@Nooble ...
> Perhaps you intended to use RankNTypes or Rank2Types
Perhaps fuck you
Super Terrible?
20:32
lol
of course I intended to do that
@Rapptz The changes seem fairly nice. No __pairs still though?
Isn't atom that god awful editor written in JS
@Bartek eat a snickers
ah it does finally have __pairs, it's just not in the main list.
20:32
@Griwes fix my code for me
I feel like I remember trying it and thing was slow as hell. Like, intolerably so
@BartekBanachewicz I can't, I'm building Boost and cursing at its build system.
Or rather, at the joke that pretends to be a build system.
why is software so crappy
Boost's build system is god-awful I believe
Haskell is the best language I've ever used
20:34
@BartekBanachewicz because most of people writing it are utter morons
and even it is painfully obviously meh
@Griwes Pffft Boost.Build rocks :D
Also, hi.
@Tuntuni Heretic.
@BartekBanachewicz Because there's just too much need for it and not enough people or money to fix everything.
Haha :D
20:34
Is there a better language than Haskell on this planet
csharppe
Wide
something I can use to write software in a non shitty way
@Puppy The funny thing is, wherever money is involved, the software gets even crappier.
@CatPlusPlus no ADTs and annoying verbosity
20:35
@BartekBanachewicz Vapor, but it's vaporware so far.
Everything that has potential to be better than Haskell is experimental and crappy
(Hence the name.)
like say Roy
or Agda
@BartekBanachewicz Brainfuck.
Mill hides
20:36
lmao
good one
@Griwes Probably because it actually gets finished.
@Puppy :D
ITT finished software is worse than unfinished
src\Hate\Common\Types.hs:54:25:
    A newtype constructor cannot have existential type variables
YOU FUCKING TWAT
3
Let's see if this joke-kind-of-a-build-system did what I asked it to do this time.
oh god someone hold me
20:37
it didn't
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz of course not.
fucking hell
surprise surprise
@Griwes Hahah oh man.
user1804599
20:38
That's like saying template<typename T> struct x { T x; }; x<typeid(a)> o;.
Except replace art with software.
@Nooble This quote is awesome.
Great idea for a game.
Oh man oh man.
> Deleted code is debugged code. - Jeff Sickel
2
Let's try with a cleaned repo.
oh wow.
i didn't realize C++ strings had iterators
2
silly Cinch
20:43
we already knew that
why are you using iterators again
iterators are indeed shit
@BartekBanachewicz SFML demands you use iterators for its Unicode features, I think.
then SFML is even more shitty than I remember
iterators are fine
20:45
Why are iterators bad again?
you are literally the only person I know who thinks that
I'm not the only one.
@Cinch Pick practically any aspect of iterators and it's bad.
user1804599
@Puppy wrong
user1804599
unless you don't know me
20:45
nobody would admit to knowing badfold
@Cinch They don't compose very well.
s/very well/at all/
> 22286504
@Rapptz sorry, compose?
@Cinch h(g(f(x)))
Oh.
20:46
In mathematics, function composition is the pointwise application of one function to the result of another to produce a third function. For instance, the functions f : X → Y and g : Y → Z can be composed to yield a function which maps x in X to g(f(x)) in Z. Intuitively, if z is a function of y, and y is a function of x, then z is a function of x. The resulting composite function is denoted g ∘ f : X → Z, defined by (g ∘ f )(x) = g(f(x)) for all x in X. The notation g ∘ f is read as "g circle f ", or "g round f ", or "g composed with f ", "g after f ", "g following f ", or "g of f ". Intuitively...
Oh that's what you mean.
Yeah.
Well I still don't really see a problem with them.
End iterators are pretty bad too.
@Cinch They're fine for what they do.
They're not great.
They're not total shit.
They're just fine.
@Rapptz Exactly. They're just standard quality.
20:47
@Cinch write map (+1) . filter (> 3) . take 10 in C++
@BartekBanachewicz If that's Haskell, sorry.
I'm still uninitiated.
@BartekBanachewicz Been done before.
multiple times
thousands of times?
maybe millions in 2015.
user1804599
I prefer take 10 >>> filter (> 3) >>> map (+1). :)
Wait a minute.
never not upvote arrows
Isn't map basically foreach on a matrix?
and then write to another?
user1804599
No, map is foreach constructing and returning a new collection.
Xeo
Xeo
20:49
map is expression-foreach
Yeah, that's what I meant.
let's see
Like Input -> function -> output
it's almost like functions can be functions you see
20:49
they're slow, they don't compose, they're hard to create, they're not very generic or flexible
user1804599
function map(f, xs):
    result = []
    foreach x in xs:
        result.append(f(x))
    return result
They're pretty generic.
they're verbose as fuck to use
CS is obfuscation to me. Simple things sounds hard when expressed in high cs.
what more is there to hate about a design?
20:50
whatever.stream().map((x) -> x+1).filter((x) -> x > 3).limit(10).collect(Collectors.toList()) :)
@JohanLarsson because of genericity
@райтфолд Ah, I see.
oh yeah
I don't see how they're "slow".
they're awkward as fuck to use as well
20:50
@Puppy How so?...
@BartekBanachewicz could be that I don't have a cs background.
@Rapptz O(2^n) storage and time for some kinds of iterator
I mean, I think they're easy to read if you know what you're doing.
@Cinch std::accumulate(myVector.begin(), myVector.end(), ...)?
@Puppy How would you reduce that?
20:51
please, ffs.
@Cinch Drop end iterators.
I just want to sum things in my vector
why do I have to specify "begin" and "end"
if I wanted something that's not from begin to end I'd tell you
user1804599
@milleniumbug In Scala: whatever.take(10) collect { case x if x > 2 => x + 1 }. :D
when I say "paint that fence" I'm not saying "paint that fence from begin to end"
@Puppy Uh... what does that do?
20:52
@Cinch A lot.
@райтфолд +1
void guy had an interesting implementation of stddev. The api was call Add n times and keep count. Then read the result out of a property. Had convenience stuff like clearing when reading out the result :)
user1804599
collect combines map and filter by taking a partial function as argument.
it means that you no longer need two objects of the same type so if you need state it doesn't balloon out of proportion like your momma's weight
@JohanLarsson convenience
20:53
it means they can compose
user1804599
And the function { case x if x > 2 => x + 1 } is defined only at inputs greater than two.
I still don't understand.
I guess I'd need an example. Oh well.
I thought people using C# were smart
well, going over the intricacies of exactly why iterators suck could take all night.
20:54
just take my word for it: iterators are shit, long live ranges
he's not here so I can say nice things about him
@BartekBanachewicz I was sarcastic, can't design it dumber even if given a lot of time. It was void perfection.
That's what she said
@BartekBanachewicz Then again, if you speak of the devil..
lol
"can't design it dumber even if given a lot of time" is going to become a useful phrase of mine
20:55
sure you could
@Puppy shit now I have to be mean again
just make it a stddev server and the Add call is synchronous networked call
but I have beer so situation is under control
@Puppy make it COM
you could make it both.
call via SOAP
oh boi oh boi
20:56
@Puppy What are ranges?
@Puppy What's that? Standard deviation server?
you could make it return the result as an HTML document.
the range-based for loops?
of course you could also enterprise it a bit. StdvHandlerManegerProxy
not really.
20:56
didn't think of that before
range-based for is the Committee observing that iterators are shit and then fixing it in one tiny corner case by implementing a special language feature.
@Cinch basically pair<iterator, iterator> for a lot of purposes
instead of just fixing the problem that iterators are shit.
user1804599
Alright, I should implement setting globals.
user1804599
As well as implementing sigils in the compiler.
20:57
range-based for is an abomination that should not exist.
@Puppy you're saying things that make surprising lot of sense today
it's proof positive that the Committee is staffed by morons.
@BartekBanachewicz I've been espousing this position for years.
unsuccessfully
@Puppy y u so angry
user1804599
Including dynamic variables.
20:57
ned downward dog?
@Cinch Because it would be nice if they weren't staffed by morons.
user1804599
Then I can implement the %_ magic variable. :D
and then we could have nice things.
Sigils IIRC were the one feature of Perl I was neutral towards
I'm so happy that the C++ committee morons are as dumb as they are. Imagine what would happen if they were anywhere like, you know, Objective-C or Java morons
20:58
instead of ranged-for.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz And Ruby! :>
@sehe you want a star for that right?
user1804599
CoffeeScript and LiveScript also have sigils.
@sehe I dunno, I think that ranged-for is Java-level stupid
20:59
> > > > Google, padawan?
I don't know enough
Is Boost.Range usable?
@райтфолд lemme guess, PureScript doesn't
What the hell. Why do boost shared objects, built with and for gcc, reference libc++ (and therefore require me to link whatever uses them with libc++abi)? What.
@milleniumbug use Niebler's Range-v3
user1804599
20:59
I don't know anything about PureScript, so don't ask me!
user1804599
Sigils in Mill represent mutability.
@Griwes Because they're C++???
@BartekBanachewicz I only used sigils in DarkBASIC but they were just "Types, but we're too shit to actually express the type or offer inference so we'll indicate it with an unreadable sigil"

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