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user1804599
10:01 PM
Well prisms should be possible I suppose.
 
user1804599
Per field instead of per variant.
 
user1804599
Haskell lens makePrisms does it per variant, so in this case you'd have _Human and _Tree prisms.
 
I don't prisms ftr
 
user1804599
But that's probably because non-record fields in Haskell aren't named.
 
@райтфолд unless it converts fuel into motion
 
10:04 PM
@Griwes wtf?
 
@Nooble pro tip: don't put it on top of the amplifier circuit
 
user1804599
And to avoid record fiasco, the generated lenses are polymorphic!
 
@Nooble that used to be common around all audio equipment. Might just be when the phone is seeking connection from another tower, though (I think it's worse when the connection is low)
 
user1804599
Generics are hard.
 
@sehe Interesting :D I only have 1 bar of connection.
 
10:11 PM
Hey guys
I'm getting close to finished.
 
You are getting finished? Good.
Maybe a finished version of @Cinch will have a clue.
 
user1804599
Suppose you could say union Option(T: covariant) { Some(x: T); None }.
 
user1804599
Then the type of Some(x) would depend on the type of x.
 
user1804599
Well, should be fine I guess.
 
user1804599
And None would be of type Option(Bottom) because Option is covariant in T and T doesn't appear in None.
 
user1804599
10:14 PM
If it were contravariant then None would be of type Option(Top).
 
Is passing in a friend class as a template argument stupid
template<typename T, typename Friend> class Thing { friend class Friend; };
 
user1804599
Still can't choose between Any/Nothing vs Anything/Nothing vs Top/Bottom.
 
user1804599
I like the latter except that "top" is an ugly word.
 
lol
 
user1804599
10:17 PM
How about and . :D
 
lol
Is your target for the language "be as hard as possible to input without a specialized editor"?
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
Everything outside comments, character literals and string literals must be in ASCII.
 
Meh.
 
user1804599
Where character literals include code point literals and so forth.
 
10:21 PM
Here we go.
This is my write-up for why you want a dynamic game system.
This is also how a flexible event system can make things like this possible.
 
@Cinch tl;dr
And probably doesn't make much sense either.
 
@Griwes Every time I want to push the boundaries of the system I set up, I need to refactor.
 
user1804599
@Griwes It complicates tooling (everything is terrible at non-ASCII) and I don't see any particular benefit of supporting it.
 
Therefore, let's create a system that can become more immune to refactoring:
Generic data structures
Decoupling of systems
Exposing interfaces between systems.
 
user1804599
Especially since all code ever is written in English, and English rarely needs such shenanigans.
 
10:27 PM
@райтфолд Well, assume UTF-8, decode it once, be a happy person. :P
 
Generic messaging for generic messages
 
user1804599
@Griwes Source files must be UTF-8-encoded.
 
@райтфолд what a naïve point of view
 
@Griwes You didn't even read it, did ya?
 
2 mins ago, by Griwes
@Cinch tl;dr
 
10:28 PM
@Cinch That's what tl;dr means
 
that... kinda says exactly that
lol
 
Yeah obviously if you're going to dismiss me, tell me why.
 
@райтфолд whereäs a real programmer would tackle the problem
 
It pisses me off when people dismiss others because of their own biases and what they tell themselves. Some even do it to themselves.
 
@Cinch ...because it's too long.
That's what I said. Literally.
 
10:29 PM
Then respond to my tl;dr.
 
tl;dr = Too Long; Didn't Read.
a.k.a.
 
user1804599
func id(x: Any): typeof(x)
ensure out is x
throw Bottom
{ x }
 
I didn't read it, because it was too long.
 
user1804599
Identity function is 4 LoC!
 
That's terrible.
 
10:30 PM
The write-up is supposed to illustrate the pitfalls of refactoring.
 
function id(x) => x;
There, done.
@Cinch It's too long.
Hence I didn't read it.
 
I'm doing the tl;dr now.I
 
user1804599
@Griwes func id(x: Any): Any { x }!
 
Or, let id = λ(x) => x;
 
user1804599
let id = $($0)
 
10:32 PM
Also lol "ensure out is x".
 
tl;dr = Refactoring is bad. Static data structures often require refactoring. You cannot forsee design decisions early. Facilitate that with a generic data structure system and decoupling of subsystems. To have complexity within design (game design, especially), first create building blocks out of your many attributes or objects and then use them to build complex relationships. Couple generics with a generic messaging system to make smooth transitions and it's all good.
 
That's literally written in the braces below, dummy.
 
user1804599
Yeah but just to illustrate. :P
 
user1804599
Postconditions are also quoted in API docs.
 
@Cinch I have literally no idea what "static data structures" means.
 
10:33 PM
@Griwes Data structures that define a specific structure that is inflexible to formatting changes.
 
@райтфолд Why ensure, and not something like postcondition?
@Cinch I do not understand what you are saying.
Or, to put it differently: you are speaking tautologies.
 
user1804599
No particular reason; require and ensure are used by Eiffel, Scala and Spec#.
 
i.e. Array is a static data structure. It is always of one format and rigid. A Boost.Any linked list is not, as you can change the position and composition of its types.
 
user1804599
precondition and postcondition are rather long.
 
@райтфолд Oh. That makes sense, then, I guess.
 
10:34 PM
Hello!! Has someone an idea for the following??
-1
Q: Properties of the Knapsack versions

Mary StarThere are two versions of the Knapsack problem, the integer and the fractional one. The difference between the integer and the fractional version of the Knapsack problem is the following: At the integer version we want to pick each item either fully or we don't pick it. At the fractional versio...

 
@Cinch So... you reject static typing because it is not trivial.
And venture into "dynamic typing" that's nothing else than a bag of worms for no reason other than not understanding why type safety is the greatest thing ever. Interesting.
 
@Griwes I reject it because adding onto it requires either messy concatenation or refactoring of the structure and organization of.
@Griwes No, you can still do this with static typing.
 
(Sure, you need type erasure at some point - but best have it at the lowest level, hidden deep.)
@Cinch I have no idea what that means.
 
@Griwes Say I have a fireball spell.
I make a data structure to hold such a spell.
 
@Cinch I'm still perplexed why do you disregard refactoring.
 
10:37 PM
Spell = name, element, caster, target, damage
 
You made a data structure especially for a fireball spell?
 
But, now I want to make an AoE spell.
 
...okay...
 
Thus, we need to refactor because the design was short-sighted.
 
No.
lol
 
10:37 PM
Spell = name, element, caster, target_list, damage.
 
struct AoE : Spell { ... }
Done.
Next!
 
You can do the inheritance thing, but let's keep going.
 
No.
 
Now I want to apply Burn statuses
 
It makes no sense to add stuff that will not be used to a class to make it a "fit all sizes" thing.
 
10:38 PM
Now do that?
 
You're doing that again?
 
How would you allow an AoE to add a buff/debuff to target units?
My answer: let's add a function pointer or std::function to point to the function I want to use.
 
that's terrible
 
We can extend this to scripting.
 
on all levels possible
 
10:40 PM
This way, our scripts become the functions and we can simply script our design in.
Therefore, Spells now call a script.
 
Spell<AoE, Debuff<FireballBurn>> fireball = { ... };
 
@Griwes Okay.
 
Done. Next!
 
Now let's say I have a Oil debuff.
let's create a spell to make the target go on fire if they have the debuff.
That's easy.
But now our spell needs to check state of the unit.
 
Yes. Spell<AoE, Debuff<BurnIfOnOil>>.
 
10:41 PM
Now, let's create a new Spell.
 
It's all in the types.
 
It will soak up Oil and remove it and increase its power based on the presense of the buff.
 
Don't make types be able to do more than necessary.
 
Let's continue.
 
Yes. Let's continue
because I will be giving the same answer over and over.
 
10:42 PM
> Cultivate the feeling that everything is predictable, that life holds no excitement, no possibility for adventure, that an inherently fascinating person like yourself has been deposited into a completely tedious and pointless life through no fault of your own. Complain a lot about how bored you are. Make it the main subject of conversation with everyone you know so they’ll get the distinct feeling that you think they’re boring.
 
Create a Burn spell which has its strength hampered based on a single Environment constant.
i.e. RAINY.
 
That's... trivial?
 
Sure.
Now let's create a Spell that needs two users to cast.
Both users must cast it within the same time frame.
There are many different solutions for this.
 
DualCastable<Spell<...>>, whatever.
 
how do you pronounce operator->?
 
10:44 PM
@Blob Arrow operator
 
k
 
Now let's create a Spell which applies a stacking buff.
 
@Blob I'm not sure if I ever did, but I'd go for arrow.
@Cinch That's the same case as applying a non-stacking buff.
 
i.e. Spell applies Curse, all other damage increases if Curse is there.
 
That's the same case all over again.
 
10:45 PM
Now do we modify the receiving function that is handled by the Unit or the spells?
The unit, most likely, because it is one case.
 
Now, I've identified your problem, I think. You designed a thing, think it's great, but do not believe when people tell you it's overcomplicated, because you designed it.
Give it a rest for a few days and you'll probably see for yourself.
 
@Griwes It's overcomplicated, but game designers love relationships.
 
Who the fuck cares.
 
@Griwes Sorry... what?
 
Don't write overly complicated code, ???, profit.
 
10:47 PM
@Griwes The code is not the problem here.
The designer wants a certain interaction.
 
Who the fuck cares what game designers love.
 
If you tell him he cannot do it, the game is limited by design of the CODE, not the designer.
@Griwes The company does, that's why.
Management does. Other people do.
 
They are usually shitty coders and have no actual clue about programming.
 
@Griwes And who's fault is it gonna be if you keep telling them they cannot do A B C D E F G H I....
 
Game designers design the game. Not code it. They don't have to (actually, shouldn't) know how the game is implemented.
 
10:48 PM
Yeah, probably the programmer's....
 
@Cinch Erm.
In your overly complicated system, you'll hit that barrier sooner.
 
Or will I?
Tell me why.
 
Because fighting against yagni will kill you.
You'll spend weeks designing something no-one will use in the end.
But you thought someone will, so you wasted your time.
 
@Griwes The point is make it so that expansion is easy, but YAGNI can still apply in design principle.
@Griwes And this is wrong. Example: Windows and Unicode
 
The expansion is easy when you follow yagni.
Not when you violate it.
 
10:50 PM
YAGNI is good for the programmer, not for the designer. And design > programming many times to many people because people use designs, not concepts in code.
 
I know, I've been there.
@Cinch lol
 
@milleniumbug Right.
 
Again: if you care about designers more, your code will be shit.
 
operator->* is a thing
w0t
 
Yes.
 
10:51 PM
@Cinch Teach a man to make a game, he'll make a game. Teach a man to make a game engine, and he'll never make neither an engine nor a game in his lifetime.
2
 
It is.
 
@milleniumbug But I think the system is not too hard to implement, in my book.
Maybe I should think about this mentality:
State should never be enumerated in design.
 
user1804599
Alright, 47 keywords.
 
user1804599
Not too bad I guess.
 
I feel miserable today
 
10:53 PM
why can't operator->* just be operator-> and operator*? :|
 
Maybe I'm just tired.
@Blob Too simple.
 
*(a->b) rather than a->*b?
 
@Blob Because PTMF are shit.
 
How about I just make a dummy program and see what people think?
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Review my documentation.
 
10:54 PM
> PTMF: Palm to my face
 
@райтфолд Hey, you were supposed to make him less miserable.
 
user1804599
Then he should vote for political parties that want to get rid of DST.
 
AAS
 
Also, fuck. I compiled the code in Niebler's range library, and then I read it's header-only.
 
i wosh i culd star from mobile ffs
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What do you think?
 
> wosh
brap brap
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit use desktop view crap
 
user1804599
I'm going to sleep as well. It's super late.
 
about wot m8
 
10:56 PM
YAGNI in design, flexibility in framework
 
deaktop virw on mobile screen is infeasible
 
Are you drunk again?
 
maybe
mostly just cba with mobile keybord
bakspce is for morons
4
 
@MartinJames would like it here
 
woahhhhhh mobile got nick complete
robot wtf happened to your avatar
 
I can make medicine with my telescope!
 
the thumvnail is all fucky
 
looks the same here
 
10:59 PM
YP
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can prove the author's momma is a supermassive black hole.
 

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