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7:00 PM
well I mean I could manually enumerate the imports from Hate.Graphics.Types, but...
that seems tedious because then I can't just add a new type to that module, I have to add it to that import list
I could probably put InternalGraphicsState in Common.Types directly, but then it means I'm mixing stuff that's actually really relevant to the Graphics module in the common module
it's the same problem all over again: I can't create a stateful abstract interface.
 
class HateImpl : Hate
 
@Puppy IDGI
 
I always forget what that one means
 
Do you mean OOP inheritance?
I am not using OOP and OOP classes.
 
yes, I was merely rubbing salt in the wound
I probably wouldn't do that myself.
 
7:04 PM
there has to be a reasonable way to use opaque stateful components
 
Typeclasses are bad for closed abstractions
 
@CatPlusPlus gimme alternatives.
what's good for closed abstractions in Haskell
 
Dunno, existentials are probably closest
 
frankly, it's a bit similar to OOP in the way that the stateful functions have an opaque state type
 
like I said :P
 
7:08 PM
welp I don't actually need internals of that type
I just need... well, a name for it
that's an existential as cat pointed out
but existentials need a lot of proofs for equality
 
18,462 dumbasses conned
comments are SCROLLING IN REAL TIME
 
oh and also that, nearly forgot
src\Hate\Graphics\Internal.hs:32:22-34:
    Cannot use record selector `graphicsState' as a function due to escaped type
 variables
    Probable fix: use pattern-matching syntax instead
    In the first argument of `(<$>)', namely `graphicsState'
    In the second argument of `($)', namely
      `graphicsState <$> gets libraryState'
    In the expression: HateDraw $ graphicsState <$> gets libraryState
FUCK. YOU. RECORDS.
I hate you with passion
you're the most broken feature I've ever seen in a programming language
 
your struggles to achieve simple things amuses me
 
@Puppy different tradeoffs vOv
that's nothing surprising really.
 
yeah like the tradeoff here is the feature is shit but it provides us with plenty of Braket-shaped entertainment
 
7:12 PM
Some things, like that in particular, would be easier in another language than in Haskell
it's about net gain.
 
oh god wow so you mean use the right tool for the job?
 
well here's one thing you certainly gain
fuckin' VS can't even find references to a C++ function
the results are full of other unrelated functions with the same name.
 
love that
 
might just remove the overload and see where shit breaks
 
well in this case the thing has a point
I'm in MonadState LibraryState, and graphicsState is a existential selector
The damn thing can't prove the type is ok
 
7:16 PM
lol
 
Would you rather save the life of a kid that you will never meet or have an actual lightsaber?
 
please tell me it's just a simple mistake I'm making
 
Haskell might just be worse than C++ at hiding implementation details
 
it's some dumb extension I need to turn on
@Borgleader what
FFS
 
user1804599
7:17 PM
I wrote a simple memory leak detector in AWK.
 
> Notice: This domain name expired on 03/17/15 and is pending renewal or deletion
 
@CatPlusPlus What do I do then :|
 
@Borgleader Noooooooooooooooooooooooo.
 
Dunno, I don't use it
 
Looks like I'll actually have to buy a book :(
 
7:17 PM
FUCKING
 
I can tell you how to solve this in C# if you want :v
 
@Nooble use the web time machine thing and pray
 
I'm asking on SO
and putting a +500 bounty on it
fuck this shit
 
Haskell?
Lounge<C++> => Lounge<Haskell>?
 
7:18 PM
I don see it!
 
yeah put a bounty on it that'll help
 
@Cinch it's been Lounge<Haskell> forever
 
Man if I can get that bounty.
 
@Nooble I'd obviously rather have an actual lightsaber. The number of lives that could be saved with that kind of technology would be far greater.
 
user1804599
build/mill ../examples/proc.millo 2> >(awk '/CREATE/ { c += 1 } /DESTROY/ { d += 1} END { print c, d }') :)
 
7:19 PM
imagine emergency rescue teams with lightsabers.
 
user1804599
Output is 825 825 so I win motherfucker.
 
@Puppy Good point.
 
@Borgleader what was it?
 
@Borgleader Thanks :)
 
7:20 PM
@Puppy Yes you can save many people with a lightsabre.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Nicol Bolas' website
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit He can also kill many people.
 
boy
I should look into PCHs or someshit
Wide takes forever to compile.
 
user1804599
Mill also takes too long.
 
user1804599
7:25 PM
Although moving things into .cpp files is on my todo list.
 
ITT dumb noobs
 
I already moved practically all of Wide into .cpp files.
 
user1804599
JIT compiler and interpreter take the longest to compile, but unfortunately those are templates.
 
@Puppy how long?
 
@Borgleader Did the owner of the website say anything about closing it?
 
7:28 PM
@JohanLarsson A few minutes.
 
@Puppy holy smokes
 
@CatPlusPlus TIL Bill Gates is a number.
@Puppy Must be a pain to debug, having to wait minutes to see the output.
 
Wide compiler, eh?
 
@Nooble Incremental rebuild can sometimes cut the time down if it's not a core header being changed.
but having to run LLVM and Clang in debug mode is a serious pain.
Clang can take 1-2 minutes to load a Standard header in debug mode.
 
7:30 PM
@Borgleader man arcsynthesis was great
 
@Nooble IIRC someone in here thought said author is dead. his bitbucket account, and SO account have had no activity in years
 
so the Wide integration tests take forever to run on Windows.
 
> seen Sep 5 '13 at 10:33
 
on Linux the ABI is stable so you can run them in release which is way faster.
 
@Borgleader Sad.
 
7:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Turns out it was dead code anyway, so it had no references.
of course VS couldn't figure this out.
 
I just surpassed 16k rep
 
@Borgleader seems like he's okay
 
0
Q: How to create an interface for a stateful component where the state type is opaque?

Bartek Banachewicz-- InternalComponent.hs data ComponentState = ComponentState ... instance Default ComponentState where ... componentFunction :: (MonadState InternalComponentState m) => a -> m a -- Program.hs data ProgramState = forall cs. ProgramState { componentState :: cs, ... } newtype MyMonad a = ...

 
Please RT: Has anyone seen Jason McKesson (aka Alfonse) online lately? We haven't seen him since September 2013. Is he okay? #OpenGL
 
amazing. woo. fuckign yay
 
7:32 PM
@Cinch I depend on both LLVM and Clang, which are very heavy dependencies with meaty headers. Including some LLVM or Clang headers can really suck it up.
 
@BartekBanachewicz gratz
 
@Pris holy fuck
I wasn't the only one that was looking for him
@leokolln Jason re-surfaced a couple of months ago. Thanks.
 
Who was he?
 
a god, basically
 
user1804599
Implement a stack in terms of a queue.
 
user1804599
7:33 PM
Imagine a call queue.
 
which is nice because that function was going to have to have some fairly nasty error handling.
and now it doesn't need to.
 
he had a bunch of awesome answers for opengl questions on SO and some other SE sites... also had an opengl function loader thingy and had a tutorial site on arcsynthesis
 
@BartekBanachewicz thats good news, i had actually started porting glloadgen to python ...
 
Also he used to answer questions on the OpenGL forums iirc
 
@Puppy Hm.
 
7:34 PM
guess i dont need to do that anymore
 
Your language looks interesting
 
really? ISTR you saying it was clearly derivative shit.
 
@Pris Nicol Bolas?
 
@Rapptz Yeah
 
@Rapptz yes
 
7:35 PM
that might have been some other dude I was busy spanking at the time, though.
 
@Rapptz yep
 
user1804599
<chandlerc> C++ ftw
 
user1804599
Can't say I disagree.
 
lol
 
@Puppy Uh no.
 
7:35 PM
He's so good they were worried about him?
 
@Rapptz yep
 
I think it looks interesting.
 
I think he's at the level of Crassin really
 
@Rapptz hes one of their biggest contributor (said one of the tweets)
 
well
 
7:36 PM
The only problem I have with the examples is that cplusplus.std.cout is a bit too long to write out
 
@Cinch You don't actually need to. Keep reading.
 
that's it
 
@Borgleader Yeah Nicol Bolas is cool.
 
I'm done
until someone answers this question
I've no idea how to proceed
it's banging my head on the same wall again and again
 
7:38 PM
-Wall
 
I think C++ is pretty convoluted and complicated to remain backward-compatible with.
 
and you don't even know the language
imagine what the people who do think
 
Well, what do you think?
 
@Puppy Do you find it easy or doable?
 
7:40 PM
so what to do in the meantime
 
@BartekBanachewicz Lounge VCS.
 
heh
that would mean we're stealing the project from the poor guy
 
Oh right.
 
well I forked it yesterday
 
Pretty sure the code scared him off.
 
7:41 PM
you know it's going to be useless right
 
Yeah :D
 
k let's do this
I need that fileCopy thing
 
I made it already.
 
you could at least use Boost.Filesystem.
 
@Rapptz no.
fuck boost.
 
7:42 PM
Boost.Filesystem is the best boost library
 
How many megabytes of code do I have to copy in order to use it
 
@Cinch Maintaining compatibility with C++?
 
@Puppy complete.
 
it would be a lot easier if Clang had a better design.
 
What makes it hard?
 
7:43 PM
they didn't exactly foresee my use case.
 
Hm.
 
@Nooble You introduced code duplication. Refactor the parts that don't change into Filesystem.cpp
 
@BartekBanachewicz Don't know. It's not header-only.
 
another thing that makes it hard
compiler resources in general are shite.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, right.
 
7:45 PM
everybody talks about the easy bits only.
 
@Puppy Isn't the rest on mailing lists and issues trackers?
 
no.
the Wide compiler design I had to create from scratch because there are basically zero resources about how to create an effective compiler pipeline, particularly semantic analysis.
 
> visited 1001 days, 960 consecutive
 
Sigh.
Programming languages...
I'm kind of sad because I just added a pull request to the project and it seems wildly inactive.
It's dead.
 
what project?
 
7:50 PM
libRocket.
 
@Rapptz who?
 
librocket is a terrible library iirc
 
@BartekBanachewicz Fixed it.
 
I just pushed some minor changes to the Samples source files because they weren't compiling because of a wrong function call to a Windows-specific thing.
@Puppy What's so bad about it?
 
well
a) there was a bunch of global mutable state
and b) even if it works and everything is great, you then have... HTML and JS, lol.
 
7:52 PM
@Cinch doesn't it use singletons
 
@Puppy What else could we use?
 
anything.
anything, at all, ever.
 
Example?
 
that means nothing
 
write your own
 
7:52 PM
he doesn't know
 
@Puppy I sort of did write my own GUI slightly in SDL
 
you don't need to use an existing technology to render some buttons.
 
he can't use or write anything even remotely comparable to what HTML and JS offers
 
@JohanLarsson me
 
you're right
 
7:53 PM
but he likes to bitch, so we're now going to hear how writing your own gui library is good
 
I can't write anything like the terrible pile of crap which is JavaScript
 
Wide is worse than JS HTH
 
It was also scriptable from Lua but it was really ugly with a factory-function
 
ah I see
 
user1804599
Mill master race.
 
7:53 PM
so actually it's you that's just feeling a need to bitch right now
 
JS defense force has come in
 
JS has better APIs than C++ to pretty much everything nowadays
 
has a Flow typechecker that actually has reasonable inference
and has reasonable debugging tools
 
It went something like this: addWindow(x,y,w,h,visible, pinnable, minimizeable)
Horrible but whatever. It was one of my earlier projects
 
7:55 PM
well I actually use TS rather than JS
 
Wide is light years behind in every regard
 
Never thought I'd see static typing advocate Bartek "Haskell" Banachewicz defend JavaScript.
 
which is somewhat better
 
there's no bitching, it's fucking reality
 
A new era.
 
7:55 PM
the only reality you've pointed out is that there's way more people working on libraries for JS.
 
irrelevant
 
I do have to admit that JS is quite easy to use.
 
it's easy to put out crap in JS.
 
I recently spent a week teaching kids to script in JS in Minecraft with no prior experience and they picked it up.
 
> static types is like riding a unicorn with a gun in your hand. -- Scott Wlaschin I think
 
7:55 PM
that's not the same as being easy to use.
 
I don't care what you say, C++ wouldn't fit that bill.
 
neither would Wide
 
I do care what you say, and it still wouldn't.
 
the bill of spewing out a giant pile of crap when you don't know it?
pretty sure every programming language can do that.
 
JS in Minecraft?
What
 
7:56 PM
@Puppy The bill of being professional-grade and so easy to use a 10-year old can do it.
 
@Cinch JS is so professional-grade, everybody who uses it is trying to replace it with something else, like TypeScript.
 
@Rapptz Yes, a person named Walter Higgins came up with a mod to a mod to allow people to script JS in Minecraft.
 
@Puppy that giant pile of crap is better than most of things you've managed to write in your life
@Puppy bullshit
 
the only thing professional about JS is that we're basically stuck with it because nobody has finished agreeing about what should replace it.
much like C++, really.
 
beginner JS devs can write better software that people with years of experience in C++
 
7:57 PM
It's ScriptCraft, and it can either bind to CraftBukkit and CanaryMod.
 
I wasn't going to go out tonight
but
fuck it
 
@Cinch Does "professional-grade" actually mean anything? If so, what?
 
@JerryCoffin It means that it shortens the amount of time to start actually producing real code.
 
@Cinch That depends on how you define "real code".
 
Imagine if everyone had to learn Fortran, then BASIC, then Lisp before they got to Python or C++ or JS or PHP.
It's better to just learn what language you need.
 
7:58 PM
You guys have become fucking insane.
 
I and some other people have managed to get kids to basically program in Minecraft and immediately see results.
 
@Rapptz "become"
 
it's not "you guys", it's Bartek and Cinch, both of which were fairly insane beforehand really.
 
We got 10 years old kids to stay interested in programming!
 
@Cinch See, here's the thing: there's a VAST gulf of difference between "see results" and "professional-grade".
 
7:59 PM
ITT Puppy accusing other people of being insane
 
@JerryCoffin maybe it is the same as production code. Only used negated: 'This is not actual production code...'
 
@Puppy Huh? Usually in the professional world, it's all about results.
 

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