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10:00 AM
ze parentheses, they do nothing?
 
@StackedCrooked Why would that be an exception?
 
@Pris Yes. Like in Math, x and (x) mean the same thing in C declarations.
 
if(f((())))
 
There truly are no exceptions. The global namespace is not something you can use in scoped manner here and there.
 
@chmod711telkitty That only works if you actually pass an argument, like if (f((((((((((42))))))))))).
 
10:02 AM
@FredOverflow yeah. I use extra parantheses because I never remember the order of operations in if statements and the like lol
 
@Pris That is actually good style!
 
The name is not yours, and you cannot steal it.
 
Apparently, it even works in assignments:
(x) = 42;    // clang accepts this
 
you need an extra 0.2k, then it would be a more round number
 
I always thought parenthesized expressions were rvalues in C.
 
10:08 AM
std::vector<int>(parenthe); // create a parenthe-sized vector of integers
 
...
 
auto griwes = std::vector<Griw>();
Okay I'll stop.
 
lol
This one was actually less terrible.
 
@FredOverflow The first one is nice because function-like macro can't steal the name
 
@BartekBanachewicz LOL
if you wouldn't have told me where it's from, I'd have thought it's from a satire news site like the onion
 
pls suggest sane & usable cmake alternative. thanks in advanced.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ++
 
> it's not him who should be doing merge of your code because it's his code
> go and merge my code properly
 
@BartekBanachewicz hf
 
10:23 AM
hold me
 
@BartekBanachewicz tight or loose
 
or I'll commit a murder at my workplace
with my bare hands
 
git commit murder --bare-hands
3
 
@BartekBanachewicz Someone dissed Haskell yo?
 
10:27 AM
@Rerito why would haskell require dissing?
@Rerito it's obvious it sucks
hurr
 
Huhu
 
> cmake (written in C++) - so huge and bloated, compilation takes longer than compiling GCC
srsly
 
how what
compiling cmake takes longer than gcc?
 
apparently (source) I'm kinda sceptic though
 
the game is awesome btw
just as awesome as the original
(it got released yesterday evening)
 
10:33 AM
@Bartek GNU/Banachewicz have you used premake, the Lua build system?
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Yeah but is there a tool that's better than CMake at what it does?
 
lol
Yes?
 
@ParkYoung-Bae I followed the link on the bottom. Is that site serious or trolling? Because I honestly can't tell.
 
@Griwes yes
 
(I mean this.)
 
10:34 AM
@Pris the ones they also list as sucking, perhaps.
 
@Griwes cat-v is a very serious site
 
Also I've looked through some of kitware's code for vtk... they seemed like good devs
 
@Griwes Yes
 
Because some of those entries in the table actually make sense.
 
Although it is occasionally handy to be correct :/
I couldn't leave well enough alone:
0
A: X greater than 3 with at least 2 difference between X and Y

seheIn response to the (awesome) golfs by orlp: Correctness must come first Most of these break down for some integer types. This includes the version from the OP Interestingly they do work for int16_t - so there is the assumption. Probably the bit shifts would need to +16 for 32 bit ints (that's ...

 
10:35 AM
Also thanks for answering "yes" to an "A or B" question.
 
Yes
 
@jalf Haven't seen any tools that do all the things CMake does except for like... qmake I guess.
 
If someone recommends 9p and C or Go then you can tell they're fucking dinosaur unix nerds not worth listening to though
 
QMake is a) horrible b) discontinued
 
discontinued?
 
10:36 AM
CMake is also horrible.
 
@Pris Every high-level build system does what CMake does
 
No, seriously, stay away from that shit :/
 
@Pris I haven't used it much, but people say that scons is a contender
 
Not all of them go through another engine to actually do the build
 
I used to like Scons but not anymore
 
10:36 AM
@CatPlusPlus how do you define a "high level build system"?
 
But CMake's feature set is not in any way a special snowflake
 
Also: if your build system needs a build system to build your build system, then your build system is broken.
Are there any metameta build systems?
 
I'll try premake since all of you seem to recommend it with such passion
 
@CatPlusPlus it kind of is
 
who is all of us
 
10:37 AM
@jalf Well, I separate build systems into actual build systems and build engines (or dependency graph planners/executors if you want)
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Go with autofools!
 
Premake is shit
 
@Rapptz Nobody, hence the sarcasm
 
no shit
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Only Puppy uses it afaik.
 
10:38 AM
@CatPlusPlus Why pls also what do you use then (please no terrible thing with a custom DSL like cmake)
 
I use python and ninja
 
CMake has good platform support, a GUI front end, and it isn't the nightmare fuel that autotools is
 
I either hand-write Ninja descriptors or use custom generators for those
 
like I can actually read a CMakeLists file without having the urge to throw up
 
ninja is neato
 
10:39 AM
Yeah. Because a gui frontend is what you need :/
 
(Ninja falls into build engine category btw)
 
@Pris I can't.
 
I've been using it ever since @CatPlusPlus recommended it to me ~2 years ago.
 
But ninja is a build tool rite
 
Because it doesn't have fucking assignment.
 
10:39 AM
@Pris No, it's different kind of nightmare fuel
Try to build non-C, non-C++ project with CMake
Or one that uses more than one thing
 
I want a build generator to generate .sln, Makefiles and other shite
 
b-b-but it's called CMake
 
It's absolute shit and the only redeeming feature is that it now can generate Ninja descriptors
 
@CatPlusPlus Haven't had to deal with that. Sounds horrible though.
 
ITT: build systems suck. All of them
 
10:40 AM
@ParkYoung-Bae Ask @Puppy, he uses (used?) it extensively
 
lounge, make me a good build system
 
Ninja does stuff right
 
LoungeMake
 
It doesn't try to do everything at once
 
I have gone down this road and I will not recommend it.
 
10:40 AM
@CatPlusPlus ah, the old "X is best because it does what I need, and features I don't need cannot possibly have any value to anyone" argument.
 
@Rerito someone said my code doesn't work
after he merged it fucking up my changes
 
@jalf Ugh no
 
and I was told that this is my fault, merged everything carefully and now it works
 
Experience shows that you're not better off with CMake generating your shit
And going through Make is just silly
 
@ParkYoung-Bae FWIW you can use ninja to invoke cl.exe.
 
10:42 AM
I used custom VS solution generators, too
 
@BartekBanachewicz It depends on how he says "it doesn't work", anyone should think about a fucked up merge as the reason
 
The only problem I've come across with CMake is weird cache issues when making changes to project options. I have to manually scrub the build dir before regenerating build files
 
@CatPlusPlus My experience says otherwise. But perhaps that's just because I'm not familiar with the all-powerful objectively superior alternative
 
but it's not the same I suppose.
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Please no :/ That bullshit way of doing build systems has to go away :/
 
10:42 AM
So, we use cmake. What should we switch to?
 
Have you guys checked out qbs
 
@Rerito one of the reasons I lost it was that he replaced my code using std::string with strcmp, removing every assert and check I had
 
Its the new Qt build system... declarative syntax. It looks good, I've been meaning to try it out
 
and claimed that "his code did work, and mine didn't"
 
Probably nothing, fuck if I know what you're doing with that shit
 
10:43 AM
idgi. can ninja generate sln and Makefiles or what? I thought it was only a build system, not a generator :confus:
 
Changing build systems is a pain
 
@ParkYoung-Bae it isn't a generator
 
strcmp, isn't it a function from the libc?
 
@CatPlusPlus this deserves 2 stars
 
No, Ninja only executes the graph and has a minimal feature set to do that
 
10:43 AM
@orlp and for the golf aficionados:
 
Oh yes indeed it is, god that's awful
 
Added a "true" golf. No shorter than 9 characters, but the first one to be correct! — sehe 40 secs ago
 
I don't like generators in general though.
 
@Rapptz why?
 
@CatPlusPlus you just said that I'd be better off with cmake not generating my shit. That kind of implies that you know of another tool that should generate my shit instead. What features we depend on didn't seem to be relevant
 
10:43 AM
@Rerito yes
 
Yes, the one you write
 
@Rapptz How do you cross platforms
 
@Rerito yes
 
@ParkYoung-Bae I don't recommend premake.
 
With Ninja backing it up
 
10:44 AM
@ParkYoung-Bae ninja handles both MSVC and GCC/Clang for me.
(with work on my end ofc since I generate the files)
 
woof woof
I'm on it
 
Until we get build systems that talk with compilers, not just invoke them, build systems will be shit.
 
10:45 AM
I just want to git clone whatever.git && cd whatever && build-in-one-step on all OSes
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thank you
 
@ParkYoung-Bae For me it's two steps for the first build, one for subsequent ones.
tools/bootstrap.py once, and then just ninja or ninja target.
 
@CatPlusPlus Sorry I'm having a hard time following the discussion. What would you recommend to build stuff instead of CMake?
 
same here
 
@Rerito Ninja
 
10:47 AM
So here's why I separate build systems and build engines: you need both, but you don't want them to be the same thing
 
I wanna work on sen.py a bit more.
:c
My only python pun btw
 
It's terrible.
 
@Pris I'm a bit depressed that everyone uses different stuff.. wasn't CMake enough for them?
 
@Rapptz I laughed too hard at this...
 
@Griwes I know but I like it.
 
10:48 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, so no .sln is generated
 
nop
 
@sehe you've inspired me
 
Oh noes :)
I'm afraid it was the other way around - ostensibly :(
 
No. Just a pure build.
 
10:49 AM
@sehe I'm gna make a perfect hash function for (x, y) to make the smallest possible lookup table definition combined with lookup code
 
Such a waste of my time
 
@orlp Generate it
 
I wouldn't recommend CMake to anyone ever
 
@sehe ofc
 
10:50 AM
I would recommend it to the people I hate
 
use cabal ~
 
@sehe not useful
 
ooh right, I remember what I was working on yesterday before I got derailed by people asking for code reviews
I was raging about Visual Studio
 
@ParkYoung-Bae I don't use VS at home.
 
10:51 AM
@sehe seeing the hash function will likely be something simple as x^y|x
 
Yeah. I think so too
@orlp I'm p. sure the OP rejects anything that moves the logic off-call-site. I don't care a lot. At least he got the correctness thing on the radar. And x>3&x>y+1 is plenty good (and (x>3) && (x > y+1) is a lot better for real use)
 
Btw robot you don't mind if I annex your MSVC bits later right?
 
No problem.
 
neat
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Would premake be appropriate when I need a .sln?
 
10:52 AM
I guess should put a copynaught notice on that stuff too.
 
Should ask @Puppy about that.
 
@Puppy your Wise advice on premake is requested
 
@ParkYoung-Bae We decided to use it at work, but I regret that.
 
I have no experience with premake, I assume it's bad.
 
Not that I know what an alternative is, but right now I'm too busy to shop around.
 
10:53 AM
talking about build systems
 
That's the thing, AFAIK the pool of build generators is fairly limited
 
I should continue work on github.com/orlp/deps
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Would you have any concrete criticism on what's painful for example?
(I'm supposed to pick a build system for the whole team so uh I'd better get it right)
 
It's extremely primitive
 
10:56 AM
i kinda wish torvalds would make a build system
hehehe, 'make' a build system
 
lol
no
 
reading over robot's message I sense some instant remorse
Sep 9 '13 at 16:07, by R. Martinho Fernandes
So by default premake seems to generate VS project files with incompatible build options (runtime checks on + no debug runtime), and to include in the project some files I explicitly excluded. Wondering if CMake would have been a better choice.
 
tbh I might just use MSBuild everywhere if I had to generate VS solutions right now
 
@CatPlusPlus Its a great idea. After git, the amount of hype and interest that any project that dude starts up would probably make it successful
 
Fuck generating VS solutions though
 
10:57 AM
have any of you used gyp
 
why would you generate .slns anyway?
curious question
 
gyp is terribly undocumented
People like their broken editors or something
 
We develop on Windows but deploy on Linux. I'm not sure I actually have to generate the slns, I just need to transparently build on both OSes with minimal effort.
> minimal effort
 
haha C++
minimal effort
 
cmake therefore ruled out
 
10:59 AM
Spotify lost the ability to minimise itself to an icon
 
@ParkYoung-Bae I left several annoyances strewn through the transcript. Rapptz's search has a few.
 
so far it's .slns + Makefile
 
Great
Good job
Thanks
 

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