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15:00
that's about the only useful use case for certificates that I can think of
@AlexM. like we said, bad managers
mainly because if you apply to an actual job and the employer's view of you is swayed by the fact that you don't have another useless piece of paper in your portfolio of diplomas
then you probably don't want to work there anyway
73
Q: Are certifications worth it?

HoLyVieRI am finishing my college degree in programming soon and I'm exploring the next steps to take to further my career. One option I've been considering is getting a certification or a series of certifications in the area of development I want to work in. Are these certifications worth the time and ...

user1804599
@FredOverflow checked exceptions
I think my University offers one-day Scrum master course certificates. One fucking day. Hilarious :)
15:02
lol
I guess the course professor is very...
... agile
YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
> Congratulations, after 8 hours of listening to some guy who likes agile, you are now a CERTIFIED SCRUM MASTER!
holy shit it worked at first run
The Haskell Effect?
yep
fetchEvents :: HateInner us [Event]
fetchEvents = fetchEvents' []
    where
        fetchEvents' :: [Event] -> HateInner us [Event]
        fetchEvents' xs = do
            tc <- (eventsState . libraryState) <$> get
            me <- liftIO $ atomically $ tryReadTQueue tc
            case me of
              Just e -> fetchEvents' (e:xs)
              Nothing -> return xs
look at that beauty
should I use monadwriter?
HateInner? lol
Xeo
Xeo
15:04
@BartekBanachewicz gets
@Xeo derp I forgot I can compose for gets too
Xeo
Xeo
lol
don't look at me like that I was thinking about queues okay
Xeo
Xeo
jiii
I think it kinda works
15:06
> For those with advanced skills in Java, you might be interested in Oracle Certified Master Java SE Developer. You would need to be a Sun Certified Programmer to take this test, but a Java Associate certification is not required. The exam costs $575. The Master Java certification combines a written certification exam and a practical programming task.
Wow, an exam where you actually have to write code?
printing out events/seconds gives correct info i think
god my toe hurts so bad
it will be a bitch to walk home
@AlexM. whouch
@FredOverflow Salesforce's advanced Developer cert has a programming assignment too
@AlexM. What did you do? Put your toe in a template?
15:10
no
7 hours ago, by Alex M.
I always forget to cut my toenails :(
7 hours ago, by Alex M.
but when I remember, it's because one of them sliced through my toe and when I take my shoes off it's all bloody
Nah. The (awesome) author of Tarsnap (also awesome), Colin Percival (of FreeBSD-security-office and Putnam Prize fame) has very politely explained that the requester is looking for a feature Tarsnap doesn't offer.

"OP" has the balls to ask him what he'd suggest instead of using his business.
I mean, it's clear that Colin doesn't want to take that as an offence, but I still think it's a lack of sensibilities to ask that
@FredOverflow I wonder if it's enough to like agile in order to teach that course, or if you have to get the one-day Scrum master course certificate first
@MartinJames lol
I managed to somehow press my rightmost toe into the one next to it while walking
so...
15:11
@AndyProwl You probably have to get a two-day Scrum Master Teacher certficiate or something. But who teaches those courses?!?
profs that also work at companies
@AlexM. Ouch! You should probably avoid Scrums, then.
profs sometimes work at companies
usually in roles that fit them, where they don't write code
like the guy I had an exam with, he's an architect god knows where
yes it was the exam where I spent 100% of the time drawing diagrams for everything
lovely
so hm
type UpdateFn us = [Event] -> Hate us ()
@FredOverflow lol
15:14
I suppose full FRP would also stamp time on those
Oh, I found the Scrum course. It's not a whole day, just 4 hours :-D
ahahaha
I also suppose I'm reinventing FRP basically
Is "Anna Logica" the teacher?
I have a Get a
15:16
Getting?
And I want a Get [a]
or Binary.Get
I have this weird need in every competition to see the least favorite team win
Actually it seems there's a hot blonde sitting in Anna Logica cafe
I don't know why
15:16
Can I lift replicate or will I end up with the same element?
@Mr.kbok Try traverse.g?
I just like seeing favorites lose
@Mr.kbok replicateM
user784668
Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
@LucDanton Oh it's Binary.Get
15:17
replicateM        :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
replicateM n x    = sequence (replicate n x)
@AndyProwl No, it's a... I don't know exactly what it is, some project to promote women or something.
@BartekBanachewicz Cool, thanks
Was it right, though? Is replicateM == liftM replicate?
@Mr.kbok No.
well replicate would give you [Get a]
but lifted... hmhm
user784668
@Mr.kbok lrn2sequence
15:19
^
8
A: Are certifications worth it?

RoundTowerSomething that hasn't really been made clear in the answers is that certification is very helpful if you're not a good programmer. Forget working for "Microsoft, Google, Amazon, or startups run by folks from companies like those": what if your ambitions are lower and you want to work in (just an...

lol sad
ergh... number of test combinations is exploding... this is not fun :S
@Mr.kbok Oh right, I mixed it up with Getters.
need to come up with a smarter way of doing this...
15:20
@BartekBanachewicz What code formatter does this? :)
@FredOverflow no idea, but looks fun
shows how freaking useless the parens/semicolons really are
Yeah, I didn't notice them missing at first.
@BartekBanachewicz IMO braces are better than whitespace
@thecoshman they're better for cluttering your code with useless symbols yes
see the example above?
Do the parens help in anything?
if you cut off the rightmost part noone would care.
@BartekBanachewicz pythonizer for java!
15:22
I'm not as 'anti significant white space' as I once was
@BartekBanachewicz They make life easier for the compiler writer ;)
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@FredOverflow meh. textual representation is for people, not computers.
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz actually looks kinda decent tbf
@Mr.kbok Yes, liftM/fmap+replicate means you run the action only once.
15:23
@Fanael What?
@Fanael IKR
also why isn't the image starred yet
user784668
@Mr.kbok sequence :: Monad m => [m a] -> m [a]
@BartekBanachewicz I'll admit that picture is a compelling argument in favour of indentation based languages
though I would like some line breaks in there, especially after a function
@thecoshman not a problem
@Fanael Did not know about this one
user784668
15:25
@Mr.kbok Which is why you should learn it.
@Mr.kbok oh come on I've posted the implementation of replicateM a while ago :S
@Fanael All in good time :)
8 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
replicateM        :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
replicateM n x    = sequence (replicate n x)
I'm also not sure if I like C++ style blocks of private/public or Java style per 'thing'
@BartekBanachewicz I know, and it's better. Still sequence might be useful later
15:26
@thecoshman I strongly don't care about that in particular
This should be a feature. Oh wait. :cnoreabbrev sepll spell - done
@Mr.kbok another fun thing to learn is foldl (>>=)
:sepples
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@thecoshman The blocks are clearly superior.
15:27
@BartekBanachewicz lol, strongly don't care. I think both are good... per thing is probably the better, you don't have to go hunt around.
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz meh foldl
@Puppy well, at least with C++ you can have as many blocks as you want, so you could do per thing
Nov 13 '14 at 12:08, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@BartekBanachewicz ITT Bartek humiliates himself by openly admitting lack of understanding of fundamental Haskell principles.
relevant
@thecoshman There is that.
user784668
There's like no reason to use foldl ever.
15:28
Nov 13 '14 at 12:25, by Bartek Banachewicz
changeRandomTilesToWater m = foldl (>>=) (return m) (replicate 10 changeRandomTileToWater)
but then it becomes some sort of state thing and you can't just move a variable around with out taking some care
@Fanael foldr (=<<)? :P
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz well-typed.com/blog/90
@Puppy it's not very logical from the "editing code objects" POV (refactoring tools should not really have to mind about your particular preference of grouping things in declarations). Also, forward declarations sometimes impose a particular ordering, so you'll end up mixing access-modified blocks for technical reasons.
@BartekBanachewicz that's a sublime plugin right? I wonder if that would pass C++...
15:29
No it doesn't :-(
That said, I do prefer to separate publics and privates in blocks.
@Fanael whenever I fold I flip a coin and pick either foldl or foldr
@sehe Declarations are indeed shit, but personally that's an orthogonal problem.
I suppose I should stop
@thecoshman no idea. found on twatter
user784668
15:30
@BartekBanachewicz tl;dr use foldl' instead of foldl
you're being too strict on me
@BartekBanachewicz foldl is tail-recursive, so I would always prefer that.
> Thanks for connecting. I'm currently recruiting for a big client in Austria, looking for a 3D expert to join their team working on in-car graphics.
Austria could be cool
user784668
@FredOverflow Not really relevant in Haskell where foldl thunks will kill the stack anyway.
Snack overflow
15:33
@Fanael Sure, foldl' it is then.
Wait, Haskell has a stack?
I thought is was all just abstractions and values and Unicorns?
user784668
@FredOverflow Which is exactly my point.
@thecoshman also FWIW Haskell fully supports braced and semicoloned syntax
oh right, I totally forgot
well
I'm reading that blog about foldl and I'm just feeling like it's just a giant pile of fail.
@Puppy it kinda is
15:36
it seems to summarize as "We apologize for our implementation being shit and this whole lazy-evaluation thing not actually working whatsoever, so we kindly need you to rewrite your function now to give us a helping hand"
That is what it would look like if you had no idea what is going on, yes.
3
> When Haskell 1.0 was published on this day 24 years ago there was no seq function at all, so there was no choice but to define foldl in the “classic” way.
> The dry technical difference is that foldl' evaluates the call to f before making the next recursive call.
there's no explanation as for why the compiler can't just do the same with foldl.
@Puppy because it's told to do something else?
well if f is pure and all that crap, then the compiler can evaluate the call whenever it chooses, no?
15:39
It can as part of an optimization, but it has to make sure it doesn’t affect the semantics. foldl really is a different function from foldl'. There are several foldl', too.
the blog doesn't explain why the semantics are different.
@BartekBanachewicz they are comforting :)
Well I didn’t write it.
@Puppy that means you simply don't know enough and the blog assumes some previous knowledge
user784668
15:40
@BartekBanachewicz But he knows Wide!
well then kindly don't be sarcastic about what other people read in the blog if in fact that guy simply didn't write half of what's necessary to actually understand the situation.
@Fanael ... right
@Puppy No.
@Puppy right, clearly everybody should explain everything down to the absolute basics every time
@Puppy this
15:41
lol I love how you'll do everything just not to have to admit you don't know something
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Every programming post should start with an assembly manual.
@BartekBanachewicz expected prior knowledge should be clear(er than this seems to be_
What about infinite lists? Or do they fail with both foldl' and foldl?
@thecoshman Some people outline expected knowledge, some don't bother. vOv
@FredOverflow What about them?
15:42
@Fanael No, with boolean algebra.
@Puppy You can't fold infinite lists eagerly, or you'll get into an infinite loop.
I know
user784668
@Griwes With principia mathematica.
But I'm not sure if you can fold them lazily either :)
with "how do I tie my shoelaces"
15:43
you can only fold an infinite list if at some point you can prove that the fold will always return the same result regardless of subsequent elements.
Xeo
Xeo
@FredOverflow Sure, if you never use the fold result. You can even fold them eagerly! :P
like, I dunno, && where the iteration is already false.
(or if you just don't need the result of the fold I guess)
Xeo
Xeo
@FredOverflow But yeah, you can lazily fold and use infinite lists
-5
Q: Advanced sizeof() operator use

Anas AyubiThis question refers to both C and C++. int buffer = 80; cout << sizeof(char)*buffer The answer that gets printed to the screen is 80. Not 4. Why is that?

@BartekBanachewicz He does go into some effort to describe the behaviour of foldl and foldl'. If it's required prior knowledge why bother even demonstrating the difference or showing their implementations?
15:45
@Fanael With English Literature.
@Puppy because you can still learn something new.
> Advanced
well, no, you can't because you're an ignoramus
but someone else could
That must be a troll
oh no, I did learn something new
user784668
15:46
@Puppy That you're basically shittier @LightnessRacesinOrbit?
I learned that in Haskell, it actually just doesn't seem to actually work because the compiler can't actually figure out when to evaluate things, so the whole purity/laziness thing doesn't seem to actually work, so you have to drop it and hold the compiler's hand anyway.
lol
Why didn't I discover Dilbert earlier?
dunno, Dilberts are popular links in here
and across the entire rest of our industry
since 1989
15:48
@FredOverflow There's a first time for everything.
I guess I saw a couple of them which weren't particularly funny.
21
A: Is foldl ever preferable to its strict cousin, foldl'?

hammarfoldl and foldl' are not semantically equivalent. Trivial counterexample: Prelude Data.List> foldl (\x y -> y) 0 [undefined, 1] 1 Prelude Data.List> foldl' (\x y -> y) 0 [undefined, 1] *** Exception: Prelude.undefined In practice, however, you usually want the strict foldl' for the reasons you...

user784668
@FredOverflow So, Dilbert?
@Puppy thank god Wide actually works.
15:49
@EtiennedeMartel Well that's just not true.
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz I heard Torvalds is thinking about rewriting Linux in Wide.
@FredOverflow I love Dilbert
@FredOverflow Well, that's the problem with writing comics every day. Most of them aren't very good. But simetimes you get a few pearls.
user1804599
@AndyProwl lol
15:55
@Fanael Just to keep both C and C++ programmers away, because he figured they're all equally terrible?
Bartek is a sith, because he always deals in absolutes.
@EtiennedeMartel always
(that's the joke, right)
ITT @Bartek learns that all the sentences about Siths are autoironic
emphasizing (perhaps unnecessarily)
also build succeeded so my program works
15:56
Holy tits
What to do with a guy that can't follow
I've been explaining python classes to this guy.
He says he understands and everything is fine.
Then when we have to write methods for some class, he always goes with self.<something> = <something>.
user784668
@Jefffrey Use lead.
Every single time
EventCursorPos (Window {unWindow = 0x000000000012ef70}) 828.0 135.0
EventChar (Window {unWindow = 0x000000000012ef70}) 'f'
EventKey (Window {unWindow = 0x000000000012ef70}) Key'F 33 KeyState'Pressed (ModifierKeys {modifierKeysShift = False, mo
difierKeysControl = False, modifierKeysAlt = False, modifierKeysSuper = False})
EventKey (Window {unWindow = 0x000000000012ef70}) Key'F 33 KeyState'Released (ModifierKeys {modifierKeysShift = False, m
odifierKeysControl = False, modifierKeysAlt = False, modifierKeysSuper = False})
TIL my code has an unWindow
Like I said, "Ok, so in self.x_list we have a bunch of "x"s. Now we want to return that list".
would be fit for an unframework
15:59
And he goes: "self.x_list = x_list" and modifies the get_xs method to take x_list.
Why
It's like he sees programming as writing setters all day.
I've got a horrible feeling that I have been drip-feeding a vampire who is writing a dissertation:(
oh fuck wait
lol I almost commited such a bug
@MartinJames I hope he liked your Kiev chicken fueled blood
wanna play a post-mortem bughunt? ;)
        evts <- fetchEvents

        when (tDiff > desiredSPF) $ do
            runHate $ (updateFn gs) evts
            modify $ \x -> x { lastUpdateTime = t }
@Mr.kbok I suppose I get what you meant :P
Xeo
Xeo
Are you throwing away events?
16:01
@Xeo only sometimes, heh.
@Rerito lol, more garlic later. I got some rep, but I'm not answering any more such questions.
Xeo
Xeo
"Oh, I do murder people. But only sometimes, heh."
:P
@Xeo thankfully noticed that in time
this is the kind of bug that's pretty much impossible to find with static analysis
hmm I don't think the user should get the window that the event appeared in
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz That part seems to make the ticking run behind after a while - or do you take tDiff - desiredSPF into account at another point?
@BartekBanachewicz About throwing stuff away?
16:04
@Mr.kbok yea
yeah.
@Xeo I suppose I'm not. I should probably accumulate that in another field or something
    when (tDiff < desiredSPF) $ liftIO $
        threadDelay (floor $ 1000000 * (desiredSPF - tDiff))
that's not going to be accurate, obviously.
Does simply having more than one program counter at an instance create multiple threads?
@Xeo I find it exhausting. I'm not much of thrill seeker I guess
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz awesome!
Xeo
Xeo
16:09
@BartekBanachewicz Also prolly relevant: twitter.com/arialdomartini/status/569806380363866112
@Xeo :)
I suppose I have to feed you reasonably-sized chunks
> In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake. Sayre's Law
Ok so
Dilbert 2.0: 20 Years of Dilbert is a 576-page special edition collection of Dilbert cartoons released on October 21, 2008. The actual book contains about 4,000 strips selected by Dilbert's creator Scott Adams over the course of the strip's history. The collection also includes Adams' commentary on selected strips and a CD-ROM including the full collection of cartoons up to May 2008....
576 pages? What a beautiful number!
16:12
I have x -> y -> IO z, an IO x and an IO y
f :: x -> y -> IO z
g :: IO x
h :: IO y

f <$> g <*> h
alternatively
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I responded!
do
     a <- g
     b <- h
     f a b
@FredOverflow Why? It's not even prime.
f <$> x <*> y or do { a <- x; b <- y; return $ f a b }
16:14
@райтфолд oh cool
nanana luc is wrong f is IO
nanana
I'm right luc's wrong
Come on whip that cock around.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz banananachewicz
@EtiennedeMartel It's the number of lines on a PAL DVD.
@FredOverflow Yeah but nobody uses PAL except cavemen.
user784668
@FredOverflow Pal, what's PAL?
16:16
NTSC best standard.
10 respondents in the poll, 10 up for a game jam
woah
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel Never Twice the Same Color?
user1804599
A Permissive Action Link (PAL) is a security device for nuclear weapons. Its purpose is to prevent unauthorized arming or detonation of the nuclear weapon. The United States Department of Defense definition is: A device included in or attached to a nuclear weapon system to preclude arming and/or launching until the insertion of a prescribed discrete code or combination. It may include equipment and cabling external to the weapon or weapon system to activate components within the weapon or weapon system. The earliest PALs were little more than locks introduced into the control and firing systems...
@Fanael Yeah, well. At least it wasn't as bad as PAL.
user1804599
16:16
I mean, who the fuck thought 50 Hz was a good idea?
@BartekBanachewicz But then I get an IO (IO z)
@райтфолд certainly not required, but I don't think forbidden either.
user784668
@Mr.kbok join
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz no definitely not forbidden
16:18
@Mr.kbok shit right. Either join (spooooooooky) or just do
oo I didn’t pay attention
I'm not as reckless as @Fanael
user784668
do join
I like to break speed limits twofold without a licence but I don't join monads.
@EtiennedeMartel It lined up nicely with European power outlets or something.
16:21
Right, Urope.
@BartekBanachewicz join it is. I like the lack of commas
lol clocking the screen by power outlet
let cds = join $ readCDs <$> eocd <*> hfile
user784668
what
user784668
join (,) 5(5, 5)
16:21
look, my code too can be elegant yet unreadable
10
@Fanael wut
@Mr.kbok I don't consider it unreadable
Applicative style is perfectly fine
it's better than moving the lifts to the front or someshit
If only we had f =<<$> x <*> y
I think it reads nicely but good luck to edit it
16:23
well I wouldn't lift the thing into IO (IO a)) no way
yeah we definitely need more operators in haskell
=<<$>
Where will it end?
@Mr.kbok I use that for constructors and it's not really a problem
now I understand sampleLoad = SampleState <$> loadSprite "samples/image.png" <*> generateSehes
16:24
jesus luc
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz It turns out that for functions, join f x is f x x.
@Griwes <<&?! ?
@Fanael dude using monad instance of functions makes you toenails curl
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz I know!
@Mr.kbok generateSehes best function ever
@LucDanton nice
OTOH I don't think I compose contextfully often
so <$> is typically enough
for those rare cases join does the trick
@Jefffrey operators are functions, duh.
instead of spelt out words they use mnemonics oh no
As if join was so obvious in meaning if you haven't seen its sig before
user784668
16:27
x >=> y is better than x `kleisliFish` y.
ahahah
@Fanael a `ekmettApply` x `lensSet` 5
@AlexM. Depends on your budget. Take a look at the Corsair K70 MX Blue
damnit dependent types
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz What have dependent types ever done to you?
@Fanael they aren't here when I need em
user784668
16:39
@BartekBanachewicz Use a Better Language™.
yay mouse support
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, why would you ever use set x a 5 or whatever is the order
And of course I was referring to the lens library, not to the (=<<$>) thingy
@Jefffrey no idea, I like the infix version much more
I am wondering if I can get rid of the monad in the update too
But it's not really that big of a problem right now I suppose
16:56
7
A: Java is pure object oriented or not?

Arun KumarThere are lot of arguments around whether Java is purely object oriented or not. According to me, Java is now a purely object oriented language as it has wrapper classes. So you can use Integer, Float etc. instead of int, float etc. (there are a total of eight primitive types). But since Java ha...

> Java is now a purely object oriented language as it has wrapper classes.
lol
Xeo
Xeo
yay, time to go home
lucky you
> According to me
I love that phrase
i never left
-1. Can somebuddy correct me please?? — Arun Kumar Oct 11 '12 at 9:48
that too
16:58
@райтфолд tar -xzf foobar.tar where xzf stands for eXtract Ze Files.
3
seriously, this is how I remember it
5
Q: What are some good mnemonics for common Unix commands?

Damien WilsonThere are a lot of common commands we use on the command line whose names or standard arguments can be difficult to remember. What are some good mnemonics that can be used to remedy this problem? Example: a good mnemonic I've found for decompressing tarballs (tar xzf) is extract ze files!

yes i can correct you. yes java has wrappers. but it has primitives as well. dont say.. that now java has wrappers.. so we can express integer,float etc as objects so java is now pure oo. thing is , yes wrappers are there.. but we can stil have int, float as primitives. so java is not purely object oriented. refer to update to my answer below. java isnt pure oo #fact.. if u feel otherwise , thats another story. — Mukul Goel Oct 11 '12 at 16:21
It gets better
@Mr.kbok That guy seems very confused.

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