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11:00
You can still do it without competing with others
well I think
the first two had long-running polls to decide their date, themes, and duration.
@AndyProwl it's a part of magic for me
so go with that again
Why don't you do a game jam with a required game library?
because that would be shit.
11:00
@Cinch because imposing technological requirements is meh
No, I mean to give love to some downtrodden project and give it the love it needs to live
(i.e. libRocket)
from memory, libRocket is full of Singletons and can therefore die a terrible death as far as I'm concerned
It looks to be cross-platform, though
meh
so's my arsehole
@Cinch that's not a reason enough to use it
11:02
@BartekBanachewicz I mean, how many cross-platform GUIs can you find that are that flexible?
(for games)
being cross-platform FOSS is nice, but you still need a reason to use it on any platform
Is there a game jam pending?
@Cinch Yeah, but you have to write it in HTML, so...
Ok, turned the data sets I had from friends and you guys and added them to the rest, processed them and now I have this: imgur.com/a/GOWvA
also like I mentioned, Singletons. That's not my idea of flexible at all.
11:03
@sehe @LightnessRacesinOrbit ^
QQ sigh...
@Cinch it's really irrelevant if you're making a game in a few hours
@Puppy let it go the way of the Ariane.
It's just I have a game I wanted to make but I can't find a cross-platform GUI
I'll base the poll on the poll for jam 2
11:04
I was thinking of rolling my own using SDL but that's pointless
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the one with massive variance is your machine, I assume it's a pretty slow machine or had a lot running?
@Mr.kbok maybe
@Cinch Here's the thing: 95% of gamers or whatever it is are on Windows, so cross-platform is nearly useless in terms of games and game UIs.
unless you're also going to publish on consoles but I don't think that HTML was really designed with them in mind.
@orlp needs moar nonius
@Puppy MOBILE
hmm fair enough.
I mean mobile is bigger than any operating system, I believe right now
iOS + Android > all
@Cinch Cross-platform is a totally unreasonable requirement
@sehe does nonius give cycle counts?
@orlp Are you kidding me? It's totally reasonable!
(Not for the game jam, myown project)
11:05
personally I would have liked just one good game UI library, even if it was not FOSS and Windows-only.
I was thinking of creating one using SDL
@Cinch ?
@orlp He clearly misclicked and replied to the wrong message.
oh didn't spot kboks msg
I actually managed to get text input for a GUI but then I tried it in Japanese and then I read up on Unicode and my brain said F IT
11:07
@Cinch That's exactly the point at which I also stopped work on a game I was thinking about.
hey Cinch, how's hiding away your virtual past going?
AHAHAHAHA
I think that if you use DirectWrite on Windows it can be not too bad to handle Unicode
but I'm not sure.
@AlexM. I'm fucked
11:08
@Puppy Honestly I don't care about Windows
If I ever get into a good position in this world I will be supporting the move to Linux
well all I'm saying is that instead of writing one UI library for all platforms, consider having some components just interface to OS-specific ones.
@Puppy Hm, as in have it have interfaces to OS-specific functionality?
yes.
@Puppy Honestly I don't know enough about any OS to do even design it correctly
libRocket does that but I wouldn't be able to do that
sigh... "hey, mind reviewing these test cases, I covered the following... wait... fuck, I still need to add more test cases"
11:10
like you could say that on most OSes you only support ASCII but on Windows you also support Unicode.
and then you can look into specific components for the other systems.
@Puppy Doesn't pygame work with Unicode?
no idea
and I know pygame runs on SDL
I wouldn't want to write anything more than a couple hundred lines in Python
Why not?
11:11
can i modify the this pointer from within a c++ object?
i just had an evil idea
no
@Cinch Because there's no useful structure. By that, I mean, it's pointlessly dynamic.
i wanted to reuse some bits
@BartekBanachewicz Turns out needs around 11 MB of runtime support:
11:12
I would want static typing for any serious program.
 1090 kb   com/redhat/ceylon/typechecker/1.1.0/com.redhat.ceylon.typechecker-1.1.0.jar
  151 kb   org/antlr/stringtemplate/3.2.1/org.antlr.stringtemplate-3.2.1.jar
   28 kb   org/slf4j/api/1.6.1/org.slf4j.api-1.6.1.jar
   54 kb   net/minidev/json-smart/1.1.1/net.minidev.json-smart-1.1.1.jar
 2856 kb   com/redhat/ceylon/compiler/java/1.1.0/com.redhat.ceylon.compiler.java-1.1.0.jar
  344 kb   com/redhat/ceylon/common/1.1.0/com.redhat.ceylon.common-1.1.0.jar
  269 kb   com/redhat/ceylon/compiler/js/1.1.0/com.redhat.ceylon.compiler.js-1.1.0.jar
for e.g. optional or variant to check if it was initialized
@Puppy hm... true that
in 64bit arch, if you are only using 48bit for pointers, you can encode the uninitialized status in the this pointer
or for a variant, the current active type
that is a particularly stupid thing to do
11:13
So uh...
@Puppy otherwise you need to store it in a bool or a char
which might break alignment in an array
oh noes, a whole bool or char!
I think I'll use typeform
it's much more modern and looks nicer
a variant<int, double> + 1 char sucks in an array, without the char, you can still get vectorization
not that one would use a variant for performance
@orlp cute. I think you should add lines between the runs so the 1/2/3 is clearer
11:15
So uh...
Has anyone looked at SFML as a library?
@Cinch yes why?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't want to draw lines between the things you want to compare.
@orlp but they're grouped comparisons
@Cinch yeah most of the people here know it
@gnzlbg Do you think it is good as a whole?
Xeo
Xeo
11:16
@Cinch Currently working with it at home.
I've used it a little bit and got a button working in it
@Cinch it is ok, depends what you want
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't understand?
Cross-platform touch-based game
@orlp I gather that
11:16
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The main point of this is to compare the algorithms, not the distributions.
right, and that's not easy at a glance
or meh, too much hassle
@Cinch has a very low learning curve, and it is pretty fast, so if you are doing something on C++ on your own i would definitely use it.
try 123|123|123|123..
it has so many options and I have the google version ready already
11:17
@Cinch We have over a thousand questions tagged as , so it seems to be quite popular.
Yeah, I've been working with SDL but I know that SFML is simply must easier to use
SFML is written with C++ in mind, isn't it?
It's in C++ basically
I've just been worried because of their formerly weak Android and touch support but since things have change...
SFML supports touch? Cool.
11:18
the alternative is SDL2, it is much more powerful, but no idiomatic C++ and harder to learn for the easy things. Hard things are hard. But with SFML there are things that you just cannot do.

Tradeoffs.. I like SFML.
Is error handling in SDL still an absolute pain?
@FredOverflow idk what you mean but it seems fine
Xeo
Xeo
From what I heard, batch drawing seems to not be directly supported in SFML
@gnzlbg Can you please stop putting empty lines in your messages? :/
Xeo
Xeo
11:19
@FredOverflow It's C, so yes?
Oi! Lounge Game Marmalade (not a jam) might just happen! Voice your opinion.
8
what's wrong with

empty lines?
@BartekBanachewicz heh
@Griwes I can do that, yes.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit They take lots of screen space.
Empty lines give my parser the hiccups.
11:20
SFML seems pretty damn complete though
@BartekBanachewicz I don't understand the purpose of marmelade.
@Xeo / @Fred can has pin?
It even has networking it seems
@Cinch used to have threads too
@Griwes not really
11:21
For any meta-issues with the poll, please plink me.
@BartekBanachewicz yeah what happened to those?
plonk*
@FredOverflow it's delicious
@Cinch they were kicked out and it was the best decision the library author has ever made\
@gnzlbg I think you replied to the wrong message bub
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Speaking of threads... Should I program with them just yet?
Oops wrong reply
11:23
@FredOverflow it's a C library.
also Boost.Thread or C++11 <thread>?
if you don't know that the answer is yes, then it's definitely no.
2
@Cinch you can edit stuff
@Cinch They're both shit. Use something like TBB.
@Puppy Ironclad logic.
11:24
@Puppy But will it blend? (translation: cross-platform?)
3
yes.
So STL works on Android?
JNI?
why would you use STL?
11:25
NDK ships with a C++ standard library
get with the times son
I can actually modify the this pointer of an object from within the object. Nice.
3
other three-letter acronyms probably don't apply
no, you really can't
11:26
Okay good because I was worried it wasn't THE standard library
sorry for all the stars but this place is funny today
well it's probably half-broken
@gnzlbg this is a value, not a variable.
and even if you succeeded in modifying it somehow, that would make no sense and your program would just break.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, seriously, WTF is with Google and Android not having good support for C++? I mean, it all boils down to the same thing, so WTF? (and wrong reply again!)
11:27
what same thing?
And if so, why not just create a REAL interface for C++ and then just have a compiler to Java bytecode?!
@Cinch because if you want to run on a java bytecode there are far better languages than C++ (like Java)
I believe that half the operating system is actually written in Java itself.
And Java is written in C++. Whoop de doo.
@Cinch no, JVM is written in C++. And Android doesn't even have JVM actually, it has Dalvik
11:29
no its value doesn't change :/
True. But regardless, Android itself has C or C++ somewhere and that's how it binds with C or C++ code
@gnzlbg Can you modify 42?
I thought they threw out Dalvik in favour of another thing sometime recently?
I'm not really following that development that much
@LucDanton I can modify a in int a = 42;
11:30
If you want a mobile app compiling to JS is the easiest way anyway
That’s right.
Ugh JavaScript
and here were you espousing librocket, lol
11:30
ikr
you're not supposed to write in JS, you're supposed to compile in it
@FredOverflow Praise glory to Santa instead.
at least that's what I suggested
Still, JavaScript
11:31
I'm just a noob and after going to my first hackathon where they were mobile and web-crazy, I have the feeling that something is wrong with web development
I've been using TypeScript at work a bit
compiling C++ to java bytecode: perfectly fine
compiling C++ to JavaScript: OMG NO WAY
and it's shit but not as shit as JS.
@BartekBanachewicz Go Go Captain Emscripten.
@LucDanton unless the this pointer is just a pointer to this object but which is not stored anywhere. Now that i think more about it, it doesn't make sense to store it anywhere.
@Cinch there's something wrong with software development while we're at it
11:32
@gnzlbg Can you modify nullptr? Where is it stored?
@gnzlbg Just out of curiosity, can you show us the code that made you believe you could change the this pointer?
Theoretically, couldn't C++ compile to Java bytecode?
@Puppy asm.js support announced in IE next
Java bytecode is much like general assembly, right?
@Cinch Yes. I've seen it.
@Cinch No, not really.
11:33
Where is 42 stored?
you need a fairly heavy optimizer to make the difference.
*generalized assembly-ish meh
even then, it's not going to be that simple.
@LucDanton in eax
@BartekBanachewicz Yeppers. Now all we need is a decent LLVM IR interface to the DOM and soon you could be running Wide as your client.
11:34
bah wtf am i doing
i have a calculus iv midterm tomorrow
can we change a topic for a sec
and talk about spritesheet indexing
(Int, Int), Int, or generic?
it's embarassing but for the sake of completeness here it goes:
int *t = reinterpret_cast<int *>(this);
(*t) |= 1 << (sizeof(this) - 1);
lol epic fail
debug-upgrade-utility.cpp:113: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of ‘type name’ with no type
debug-upgrade-utility.cpp:113: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of ‘type name’ with no type
brilliant
can I write all function return type as auto?
11:35
NO
what's your name, Alf?
Why not?
(Yes, you can - though sometimes you will need a trailing return type)
@Cinch You decide for yourself:
$ javap -c Main.class
Compiled from "Main.java"
interface Main {
  public static void main(java.lang.String...);
    Code:
       0: ldc           #8                  // String oh:my:god
       2: astore_1
       3: aload_1
       4: ldc           #10                 // String :
       6: invokevirtual #12                 // Method java/lang/String.split:(Ljava/lang/String;)[Ljava/lang/String;
       9: astore_2
      10: iconst_0
      11: istore_3
      12: aload_2
      13: dup
      14: astore        7
auto main() -> int
{
   std::cerr << "fuck me\n";
}
because the compiler can't deduce the return type across translation units.
so basically, if you're in template-related stuff you can, but otherwise, you can't.
11:36
@FredOverflow ...yeah okay that's not assembly
@Elvisjames yeah, in C++14, for the most part
@Cinch What makes you say that?
@FredOverflow Syntax and terms are different, little bit more abstraction, but it is similar
It's just... different?
I've never done assembly so yeah
it's the more abstraction that's the problem.
@Cinch that makes you an expert I suppose
11:38
JVM bytecode abstracts away a whole bunch of stuff that you can deal with directly in C++.
@BartekBanachewicz snorts
so it's easy to write (especially pointer-manipulating) shit in C++ that JVM can't express.
@Puppy mmm i see.
@Cinch it's annoying crap anyway. everything is an integer
function calling is fun because every variable is global
so small programs can actually be quite easy and entertaining to write
Bah, Java.
11:39
everything is bit(s)
@Puppy You could simulate C++ memory with a huge byte array ;)
Also I want a world where byte has 64 bits
pretty please.
I still think C++ is the master race
@FredOverflow The approach taken by Emscripten and friends.
And there's my cue for more Cup Noodle
11:40
@Cinch it's too annoying to write for my taste
and while I appreciate the explicit ownership semantics, most of the time I don't give a flying fuck
it's the logic I want to focus on, not ownership
@Cinch lol
@Griwes Regardless, any programmer worth hish's salt should understand C or C++. When a majority of the world's code base is still in C, C++, or a language implemented on top one or the other, there's a pattern
C++ > C only because higher-level abstractions and is the perfect medium between high-level and low-level as it is
@Cinch this is as dumb as any "master race" claim really
IOW very dumb
Let's go down the C/C++ list?
lol
> C/C++
11:44
JavaScript? Best engine, V8 = C++
Python = C
Lua = C
Linux = C
Windows = C
Firefox = C++
@Cinch windows is primarily written in C++
@Cinch I like how you completely misuse the equality sign
Yeah, you've listed systems and low lever runtimes. So obviously they are written in a system programming language.
@BartekBanachewicz lol
11:45
No surprise there.
What I don't like is you spamming the room with your preconceived wrong ideas of C or C++ superiority
Photoshop, Acrobat...
Is there an IDE that deduces the type of an auto typed variable when showing a tooltip?
Maya, AppleWorks
Every single one of those things you've listed barring firefox are low-level runtimes or operating systems
11:45
Autodesk
@Cinch What the language you're using is implemented in is irrelevant.
I wouldn't be suprised if all the applications you list use scripting
@Puppy Disagree, otherwise Linux would be written in JavaScript or Python right now
Linux is not a language.
@Cinch since when is Linux a language?
11:46
The kernel
Not a language either.
Is not a language.
Linux is clearly not a language.
linux shell scripts
and also
11:47
@Cinch Linux is the kernel.
the amount of code used in implementing Linux is vastly inferior to the amount of user-mode code that runs on Linux.
the same is true for Python, Lua, Windows, .NET/Mono, etc.
nobody said Linux was a language
not even mentioning microkernels like QNX
he talked about what language Linux is written in
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ty
11:48
And let's not forget, that almost every Linux distro lives and breaths through scripts
@Cinch You're welcome
@Puppy But you cannot deny the fact that when something completely new needs to be implemented, they use C, C++, or a C-derivative
@Cinch So what?
@Cinch They also 100% use Python if they use linux.
there are no C derivatives except C++, possibly D, and Wide, and D and Wide don't have much implementation traction right now.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Let's have a role playing game, 50 shades of grey themed! I will start ... vlad puts you in chains
11:49
@Puppy You're forgetting Objective-C
yes, I suppose I am.
@chmod711telkitty oh god
but I'm still going to deny that fact quite easily.
god I miss SGU
so fucking much
@Cinch You're like arguing that air is the best carpentry tool, because everytime someone uses a carpentry tool they're using air.
11:50
@LightnessRacesinOrbit is that moaning I hear after vlad put you in chains?
@chmod711telkitty OH GOD
I wonder which language community would give me better support.
@FredOverflow I'm arguing that C and C++ are going to be relevant for a long, long time
> better
that is a very distinct argument from "C and C++ master race" up there.
11:52
so noone wanting to bikeshed the spritesheet indexing issue?
most relevant
@Cinch What does that have to do with anything?
definitely not correct.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ok, fine! you put vlad in chains, happy now?
@Puppy Oh, you were already talking about C and C++? Nevermind then.
My Ceylon/Scala catpic had nothing to do with it.
11:52
C and C++ will always be relevant, therefore, they are the most reliable
@chmod711telkitty :(
That's a novel concept when you consider how many programming languages we have gone through already
@Cinch How on earth are C and C++ "reliable" languages?
@chmod711telkitty Why not Alice?
Badum tsss
11:53
@FredOverflow As in, they're been around for a long time and people always go back to them for some reason
hello mister buffer overflow, it's been three nanoseconds since you last checked in
3
@Rerito ? Alice ... and?
@Cinch Ah, I thought you meant "security reliable".
oh fuck n
Alice in chains...
11:54
@Cinch lol "people"
C and C++ suck in many ways but that doesn't mean that they're not important
let me let you in on a little secret
"people" do all sorts of exceedingly crazy shit.
Alice in Chains is an American rock band formed in Seattle, Washington, in 1987 by guitarist and songwriter Jerry Cantrell and original lead vocalist Layne Staley. The initial lineup was rounded out by drummer Sean Kinney and bassist Mike Starr, who was replaced in 1993 by Mike Inez. Although widely associated with grunge music, the band's sound incorporates heavy metal and acoustic elements. Since its formation, Alice in Chains has released five studio albums, three EPs, two live albums, four compilations, and two DVDs. The band is known for its distinctive vocal style, which often included the...
@Cinch Please show me anyone who disagrees with that point.
just because "people" do a thing does not make it good or relevant.
11:54
@Rerito Because LRiO is not locked in a love/hate relationship with Alice that I know of ...
@FredOverflow If no one can disagree, then we can agree than C and C++ are reliable languages, important, and have stood the test of time
which is still very distinct from "C and C++ master race" up there
Therefore, C and C++ are sort of a lingua franca right now
nope
Most programmers who make all programming work must work with C or C++
11:55
Does every C++ programmer know C?
@Cinch bullshit
@Cinch There are hardly any programmers who make all programming work.
@Elvisjames I started with C and moved on to C++
@Cinch C and C++ have gone through what Simon Peyton-Jones calls the "threshold of immortality". That is, there is so much code around written using those languages, it's impossible to allow them to die. But so have many other languages, including Java.
11:56
@chmod711telkitty I know, I was just making a wordplay
@FredOverflow Unless you have Wide.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit My stereo is off.
@FredOverflow TURN IT ON BITCH
@Rerito Which is again yet another reason why C and C++ are #masterrace
11:57
@Cinch Why do you keep mentioning C and C++ in the same sentence?
@Cinch I don't see where my personal experience is relevant to establish that
Java and JavaScript are very important languages, too. But you don't see anybody mention those in the same sentence. Except by clueless morons, maybe.
so is C#
and I'd also suggest perhaps Python.
@Puppy but C is integral to python
and possibly Lua.
11:58
Freddy> you are my stereo baby, lemme turn you on!
@Cinch C is about as integral to Python as my arsehole is.
2
@Puppy Yeah! WoW addons!!!
Any improvements to Python or Lua are done with the base language... which is C
which is irrelevant.
@Cinch can you stop already
11:58
improving Python or Lua is a tiny fraction of Python or Lua.
seriously it's fucking annoying
there's a thousand times more Lua code than Lua implementation code.
@Cinch Please make a comment about Haskell right now just to piss off Bartek even more :D
and probably more for stuff like Python.
@Puppy But uh, Python and Lua are often embedded into applications anyways
most comfortably with C/C++

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