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11:00 AM
@thecoshman Meh, like what, hardcoding everything?
 
@AMostMajestuousCapybara you don't have to write the "times dt" everywhere, and it's harder to keep physics stable
 
@BartekBanachewicz do small sleeps, and check each time if it's been long enough
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's a very weak argument
 
@thecoshman that's what I'm doing, duh, but there's a bu
 
@AMostMajestuousCapybara more or less
 
11:00 AM
@AMostMajestuousCapybara um, no, it's not, you just apparently don't understand the significance
 
things like networking can be easier to if you have clear steps in time.
 
You're right I have no idea what I am talking about
 
@AMostMajestuousCapybara it can be a series pita
 
if everyone is doing the steps that are the same you can guarantee that for any number "n" of steps, the state will be the same across networked machines
 
11:01 AM
but, IMO, you physics engine should work with a 'variable' dt that can then control as an input
 
I don't know I have never programmed large scale physics simulations
 
that way you can control easily if you want it to run at what 'updates per second'
 
Anyway baddies
Time to go home!
 
regardless of what it actually runs at
 
@thecoshman a physics engine updates when you tell it to
you should control the rate at which you ask for updates because that's ultimately simulation quality
 
11:02 AM
If I had the time I'd bother writing a decent C++ backend for ANTLR.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, put I mean that when you tell it to update, you tell it over how long to progress the physics
 
not necessarily
a perf hints exist, but otherwise simply doing smallers steps is another thing
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
think of eve, it slows down time, buy calling the update function at as 1 update per second, but each update being for like 1/60th a second
(well... maybe not that extreme)
 
even if you're doing fully continuous simulation
 
user1804599
11:03 AM
If I can detect a function never returns and never throws I can optimize away all stack frames under its.
 
but it's one way of letting it cope with heavy load.
 
it still matters what dts you pass
because of numerical errors and all that
 
user1804599
It'd reduce collection time.
 
@BartekBanachewicz continuous
 
Havok has a funny benchmark when you can test at what speed a ball falls out of a solid box
 
user1804599
11:05 AM
It's like, a hyper tail call.
 
it keeps rotating faster and faster until the simulation destabilizes
 
@BartekBanachewicz Numerical errors will be less prominent with larger steps, not smaller.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but rounding errors are 'less ugly' when consistently wrong :P
 
hehehe. Just had this win conversation:
> Co-worker: I got a drone from my gf for valentine's day. I played with it yesterday.
> Me: ... oh. Well, you may consider your Bits Of Freedom membership canceled, then
> Co-worker: Yeah, I'm with the NSA now!

.... wait what: how did you know I'm a member?
> Me: I have a drone too, you see :)
I correctly sensed his privacy-conservatism somewhere last year :) He's the only one in the office actively blocking cookies in browsers
 
hmpfh why is this thing eating the CPU :|
or maybe it's just windows reporting usage badly
 
11:08 AM
@sehe ... which ironically makes him very easy to track :S
 
lol no kidding after I save sublime the usage drop
 
@thecoshman the typing...
@thecoshman Oh well. To spot != to track
@BartekBanachewicz Go back to eclipse
 
user1804599
Hmm it's a bad idea.
 
user1804599
But I could tell the GC to not consider those stack frames.
 
@sehe maybe not...
 
11:10 AM
Tell it to be even more inconsiderate
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz I've opted to just sleep for the rest of the unused frame
Or rather, let SFML do that for me. Same difference.
 
@Xeo you're still doing that SFML project?
 
I really should find a tolerable games library so I can just start doing some stuff
 
@Xeo I think it's just windows' task manager badness
@thecoshman I can provide support if you want to try out Hate
 
but I just find learning how to use those frameworks/libraries such a chore
@BartekBanachewicz that's you crapskell thing right?
 
Xeo
11:13 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I also had an implementation with std::this_thread::yield until I accumulated enough wait time for a frame, but that only gives up CPU to other apps in need, not to idling.
@BartekBanachewicz ye
 
@thecoshman yes.
 
Xeo
12 hours ago, by Xeo
I've been productive today - a whole three commits!
 
@Xeo what's it about?
 
Xeo
Stuff and stuff :P
Currently just playing around with getting SFML and Box2D to behave
and cooperate
 
well getting SFML to behave isn't an easy thing granted
 
11:14 AM
should we consider questions only tagged with to be questions about c++N, where N is the latest accepted IS?
 
@Xeo what you make of SFML?
@FilipRoséen-refp yes
C++ is the latest C++
 
@thecoshman but then, should we allow questions to be tagged with both and (or whatever)?
 
We should allow whatever makes sense.
 
it will be a mess if it wasn't allowed, but it's also.. somewhat weird
but what makes sense?
 
11:17 AM
@FilipRoséen-refp yes, some problems are only applicable to a certain version and can't just change version. still makes sense as some people might only look at that tag and still want to help those stuck on specific versions.
 
it's really pretty minimal
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz I'm getting along fine with SFML so far
 
It makes sense to stir your coffee after you put the coffee powder in it.
 
To get the underlying type of an enum class: use std::underlying_type<>
 
With this analogy it becomes evident Knuth has never had to do his own cleaning: http://t.co/6tqbMoQyWK
 
11:18 AM
man they really think of everything eh
 
Xeo
Box2D is the bad child
 
@Xeo do you really need a full-blown physics engine?
 
Xeo
I figured that'd be the easiest
 
any of you all check qt 3d? It uses... an entity-component-system, coupled with a scenegraph ('frame' graph) and signals and slots
 
11:19 AM
@Pris no
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know Haskell enough to understand that properly.
 
Xeo
lunch
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know Haskell enough to understand that properly.
 
@thecoshman it produces a pulsating circle. User state is just circle radius here. Update step increases the radius, and if it goes over predefined value, resets it. Draw produces a list of "draw requests", in this case the list has one element - a circle with the stored radius, translated by a fixed position vector.
Framework takes care of calling the load function at the beginning, opening the window, and then calling update and draw when appropriate.
 
11:23 AM
they even have std::is_unsigned! neato
 
> JSON Voorhees puts the focus more on the resulting C++ than any "modern" feature set.
read: "I use malloc and I don't care who knows" ?
 
user1804599
Holy shit, TIL:
 
@BartekBanachewicz thing is, if I want to write a game, I want to writ a game; I don't want to learn a language.
 
user1804599
% echo 'abcdefgh' | perl -pe 's/ab/cd/+s/ef/gh/'
cdcdghgh
 
user1804599
11:26 AM
You can combine substitutions with +.
 
@райтфолд :O awesome!
 
which is strange because his code looks pretty "modern" to me
 
static_assert(std::is_unsigned<
    std::underlying_type<EnumClass>>::value,
    "FlagSet: enum class type must be an "
    "unsigned integral");
tasty
 
@thecoshman how many games have you written in the last year?
 
@BartekBanachewicz forget mocking the lack of games, apart from work, I've done more or less fuck all 'fun' programming.
I just can't bring myself to care to get past the first problem. Even the most trivial of things stops me.
A big factor is that I need to be able to spend time working away on it, like hours, and I just don't get that time.
 
11:30 AM
@thecoshman I call that friction.
and by far, Love2D is the way to make games with the least amount of friction I know
 
call it what you want, it fucking sucks ass
 
it's because C++ is a shit overcomplicated language when it comes to making simple games
 
@BartekBanachewicz I got stuck trying to think about how to make a thing move towards another thing.
 
:|
 
dude, it has fuck all to do with the language
 
11:31 AM
@thecoshman well if you have problems expressing logic I am not sure if you should be a programmer at all
 
That sounds like an issue that you'd have on any language.
 
my typical problems are drawing stuff and project setup
 
I have a problem expressing care
 
That's not a problem that can be solved with code.
 
no shit
 
11:32 AM
Engineering.
 
I'm making Hate to make making games more fun.
but if you don't want to make games, then welp.
 
I want to, I just don't
2
 
I still agree on the fact that the language isn't the real problem.
 
@E_net4 maybe not for him
it is for me
Love2D gets annoying when the projects grow
 
Yes, exactly. I meant in this context.
 
11:36 AM
I have no problems with translating what I want to happen into code.
 
5 mins ago, by thecoshman
@BartekBanachewicz I got stuck trying to think about how to make a thing move towards another thing.
 
maybe you all should just use unity or UE4
 
@Pris ... that was with unity
 
@Pris UE4 means C++ and overbloat of features, and learning unity is boring to me
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, if I could think for long enough to come up with what I want to happen, getting it into code would be easy.
 
11:38 AM
this is the most safest answer — slier Jul 3 '14 at 3:03
lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz hurry up and write the perfect engine then, so I can ditch my 3d stuff
 
@BartekBanachewicz unity is... odd
alos a PITA that it doesn't have a linux dev environment, so I had to use a vm
 
@Pris I'm not writing a 3D engine
2D games are funnier and typically more manageable in short timespans with limited teams or alone
 
2d games are pretty funny
 
I deffinately used to be a lot better at thinking through these problems
maybe I should just go back to what I used to do, C++ and low level OpenGL
slow, yes, but I got shit done and distracted myself well enough.
 
11:42 AM
@thecoshman Sometimes I feel like I was a way better programmer when I was starting out. I feel like... my brain and thinking patterns have been altered by writing software and I'm not that good at it anymore
 
@thecoshman OGL 4.5 is much more pleasant admittedly
if you start at 4.5 you get DSA and all that
It still becomes a pita when you try to use it for anything serious though
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think one of the problems is like with Duke Nuken, I get stuck trying to chase down great features.
 
Bah, that's why I'm trying to get someone to use my thing
 
whens the GDC talk on OpenGL Next?
 
I should just write a game for myself, so screw cross platform, screw fancy code, screw re-usability. Just something derpy for myself to play with.
 
11:45 AM
to actually narrow down the feature set
@thecoshman that's a good idea certainly
@Pris who cares, it becomes unusable crap anyway
 
what if we get a farenheit-like high level API too alongside the refreshed low level API? how dope would that be?
 
4.5 will be probably the last OpenGL that hobbyists can really use
@Pris I doubt anyone will care enough to keep the high-level API working
 
@BartekBanachewicz why do you say that?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
 
@BartekBanachewicz what does that even mean? OpenGL next is a complete rewrite; if anything it'll be nicer to use than everything before it
 
11:46 AM
because the next one will be more low-level?
@Pris and how much do you know about opengl next?
 
@BartekBanachewicz what?
 
I don't think this is secret information anymore, uh?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know that its a complete rewrite and will probably offer some low level features after the hype that Mantle and Metal created
 
It's not about "offering some low-level features", everyone blabbers about how it's going to compete with the other modern APIs
 
erm... opengl next? wtf is this? i've been out the loop :S
 
11:48 AM
And I don't know why you assume offering more low-level apis will hurt usability. Have you used Mantle or Metal? Are they harder to use than OpenGL?
 
@Pris of course they are.
 
@thecoshman next version of OpenGL, major rewrite
 
If something's more low-level than OpenGL I am not sure what do you expect in terms of usability
 
@BartekBanachewicz have you used them?
 
No, but I've read the specs.
anyway, low-level APIs are targetted mostly at engine creators like Epic Games or Crytek
 
11:50 AM
@Pris call 'OpenGL Next'?
 
They need raw power and don't care about the high-level details in the slightest
 
@thecoshman no official name yet. They'll probably reveal the name at GDC
 
OpenGL has always been 'low level'... don't see how you can get more so
@Pris inb4 '5'
 
@thecoshman then look at Mantle
Reduction of command buffers submissions
Explicit control of resource compression, expands and synchronizations
Asynchronous DMA queue for data uploads independent from the graphics engine
Asynchronous compute queue for overlapping of compute and graphics workloads
Data formats optimizations via flexible buffer/image access
Advanced Anti-Aliasing features for MSAA/EQAA optimizations[4][9]
Native multi-GPU support[4]
 
@sehe how do I make qi::alpha >> *qi::alnum be attributed as std::string? Do I have to construct the string manually, or is there a shortcut?
 
11:53 AM
@thecoshman They might get rid of the name "OpenGL" altogether. You can get more low level by defining memory access patterns that don't force you to create and upload buffers and textures how OpenGL currently forces you to.
 
you basically just push arbitrary bytes and then do arbitrary computations on them
 
Still... I can't see this OpenGL just disaperriang
 
that sounds very arbitrary
 
@BartekBanachewicz That doesn't sound too different from the current OpenGL feature set.
 
disaperriang.
 
11:54 AM
@thecoshman Oh come on, "disaperriang" is just too much.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes except ogl can do more...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes there's still the division between texture dimensionality and cubemaps and whatnot
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes o_0
oh
 
@BartekBanachewicz Those are just data access patterns used in the arbitrary computations.
 
not slept well in a long while
 
11:55 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes also shader stages have fixed steps in between
like TCS -> blob -> TES
 
@thecoshman It's always been how I thought of OpenGL since shaders were introduced.
 
lel, first vertex shaders weren't really that "arbitrary"
which every consecutive generation of shaders painfully showcased
 
What wasn't arbitrary about them?
 
say, the inability to filter out vertices like geometry shaders can
 
I hope OpenGL Next has EGL as mandatory, or something like it. And somehow makes context creation and function pointer loading and all that nastiness far nicer.
 
11:57 AM
@Pris it's not like I've ever done those manually
 
@Pris context creation isn't really a OpenGL thing though IMO
 
@Pris If something you never ever ever need to do is your biggest gripe with OpenGL, then OpenGL is the best thing ever.
 
What do you mean by 'never ever need to do'
 
Exactly what it says on the tin.
 
dunno, use GLFW and the problem disappears?
"I want that context" - ok.
 
11:58 AM
Because GLFW is so cross platform
 
it is enough for me vOv
use a different library if you're on an unsupported platform
that still doesn't mean doing this manually
 
it's really not that much to it
 
If you're dealing with that stuff, you're doing it wrong. If you're dealing with that stuff to the point that it is a chore, you're too far gone.
 
it's a fair bit of boiler plat though I grant you
 
what robot said
if instead of making i.e. a game your problem is loading function pointers for OGL, you're doing it wrong
 
12:01 PM
that lovely feeling when you are refactoring code, and start to think it was never right in the first place...
 
I have other problems with OpenGL that I hope next fixes... like the cost of draw call submission and having to batch client side. But the 'boiler plate' is still a chore
 
"cost of draw call" lol
how many millions of polys are you rendering
 
The issue isn't poly count, its the number of draw calls
 
@Pris It's never or once in a lifetime, twenty-line boilerplate. It's not a chore.
 
@Pris how many drawcalls/frame are you doing?
are you using instanced rendering?
 
12:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes that is different for every lib you use, with special 'gotchas' and ifdefs everywhere for different platforms.
 
Are you using NV_bindless_texture?
> We have some sad news to share with you today: Helpouts will be shutting down on April 20th, 2015.
lol
 
@Pris Also, it's completely outside the scope of OpenGL.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm working on map stuff, where you have to draw a lot of things. Draw calls can easily go into the hundreds
 
@BartekBanachewicz Typical Google.
 
@Pris hundreds is nothing.
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
are you using instanced rendering?
 
12:05 PM
@BartekBanachewicz on desktop sure, on mobile its a problem.
 
wow so graphics very 3d
 
^ that scene looks pretty simple, but absolutely everything in it batched
 
you know that you'll have to batch to prepare proper commandbuffers anyway right
 
It becomes unusable if I don't aggressively batch to get drawcalls down.
 
using mantle just because an overhead of a drawcall is lower is a meh solution imho
 
12:08 PM
@BartekBanachewicz By 'batch' I mean literally merge vertex buffers. Preparing command buffers doesn't affect total draw call count, it reduces state changes
 
do you know what AZDO is?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sorry - support team was out for lunch
Yes there's qi::as_string (though in your sample it's not required)
 
Pretty sure AZDO was nearly irrelevant for OpenGL ES
 
um ES3 has pretty much everything you need
instanced rendering and UBOs being the most prominent I think
 
@sehe Why is it not required? The synthetic attribute is tuple<char, vector<char>>.
 
12:10 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Only in compound-attribute rules do you need to "atomically assign" (more like "correspond" or "propagate") to a container attribute. The general template for this is qi::as<> (and as_string is just as<std::string>() I think)
 
I'm writing against ES2. Even if I had ES3, UBOs would help... I don't get how instancing would do anything.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, if the exposed attribute is std::string (or any other standard-ish container of char) then qi::alpha >> *qi::alnum and similar will just all push back into the receiving attribute.
Things like this are subtly convenient, but I can see how they are subtly confusing if you have a learning mind that tracks details well (hence: you get surprised)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Most people learn spirit with the "Oh, nice this works" mindset. And they only learn about as<>, attr_cast<> and friends when somehow the default attribute compatibility rules don't work (e.g. in semantic actions unless non-default BOOST_SPIRIT_ACTIONS_ALLOW_ATTR_COMPAT mode is used)
@R.MartinhoFernandes I realize I'm dumping the condensed advanced Spirit course on you in 12 messages, so let me know if you don't want that kind of deep dive
Meanwhile, I enjoy dumping that experience on someone who can probably absorb it :)
 
12:30 PM
Dayum. Yavide looks kinda nice However, it already manages to impress as an IDE (overwriting my makefile without warning; taking 25s to close; using Win-style ^C,^V,^Z,^A bindings). Still looks worth the time to at least play with to get inspiration for my favourite Vim setup
 
user1804599
I should register pork.halal as soon as .halal gets available.
 
user1804599
> Numbers generation bad value
 
user1804599
Nice question title.
 
Don't forget .helal as otherwise none of the target audience will find you
 
user1804599
> Trek je lolbroek aan en laat zien hoe grappig je bent! Een grapjurk is natuurlijk ook prima. Lach je suf met alles wat je ziet op .lol domeinnamen!
 
12:32 PM
@райтфолд Kids of the numbers generation provide bad value to employers, this everybody knows
 
user1804599
Please demonstrate well-formatted code and reduce the example to the part that goes wrong. Stack Overflow is not a debugging service. — райтфолд 12 mins ago
 
Ell
surely it should be pork.haram
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I don't have just basic jump and "stand on platform" mechanics. I've got a bit more than that in mind.
 
@sehe WTF it's vim-based and uses <C-c>, <C-v>, etc?
 
Firefox feels all wrong without my countless open tabs :(
 
12:48 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah. Many other things seem quite ok out of the box. I suppose it's geared to IDE lovers on all platforms (and then it might make sense...?)
 
Ell
I prefer C-c, C-v, etc.
 
I miss my M-w, C-w, C-y when I do not have it.
 
Good chap. You can use Yavide!
@wilx no clue what that'd do (inb4 emacs)
 
Ell
I'm fine with Atom & terminal for now
 
@sehe Indeed. :)
 
12:54 PM
Quick guide to learning Java: Step 1: Reconsider.
 
WTH
 
Okay. You win. Your onebox is larger. Again.
 
Ell
@FredOverflow still struggling along? :P
 
12:58 PM
@FredOverflow more than a little ironic that the tone of this reminds me most of Linus Torvalds
 
user1804599
@sehe he better move to NL ASAP
 
Well I could laugh if I didn't have to cry
 
> No, he/she is thinking correctly. Git is a productivity killer. The mass cult-like worship of it stems from something endemic to the development world, that is, the ( often macho ) need to find tools that are difficult for the sake of being so
 
user1804599
Dan kan hij schoffelen in plaats van uitzitten.
 
I like that, I wonder whether anyone tried to cry while laughing ... I mean if you laugh until you have tears in your eyes, would that be laughing & crying at the same time?
 
12:59 PM
@райтфолд Nee hoor. Dan hebben we al tuigdorpen
 
user1804599
Of brommen.
 
I want to go back to Mercurial
The only thing sorta keeping me with git (work aside) is GitHub
 

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