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08:00
@bAbhinavKumar Looks serious, see a expert.
There's no difference between "invtry[i].item" and "invtry[i].item".
There's good experts on experts-exchange.
State postal system? 20 employers doing nothing, 1 active at any moment, which means infinite queues. The state doesn't care about firing because it has infinite money (basically). State employers get a bunch of benefits too, including the fact that unless they kill someone they can't be fired. And there you go.
It's rude to interrupt some strangers's conversation to discuss your "serious" problems, especially if there's a legion of strangers not in the middle of a conversation eager to help with your "serious" problems in the Questions part of the site.
1 message moved to bin
@Jefffrey Italy has serious corruption issues, so your view is clouded.
The solution to corruption is not capitalism.
It's designing systems where there are no mixed interests.
08:02
@R.MartinhoFernandes .sorry difference between "invtry[i].item" and "*invtry[i].item".
Private postal system? No queue whatsoever. They lay down a red carpet every time you enter. They are all smiling and they are cordial and professional.
I'm being trolled.
Because guess what? A client complains? You are fired.
@Jefffrey You are fired and go to work on the public system.
The private system pays more, so those that are good go there.
Yup.
08:04
Well, that's exactly the problem @orlp was talking about.
The bad people are left in the public system because the private one steals all the good ones.
I get it.
I don't think so.
With the system I proposed above you have basically public free courses (if you have the state finance it, like you want) while still maintaining the natural teacher meritocracy (if you have a shitty course you don't live much).
So you take the teacher selection of private schools and the availability of public schools.
Public schools have the exact same teacher selection as private schools.
What makes you think otherwise?
There's no need for this system because it solves a problem that doesn't exist.
There are more academic teachers than there are positions.
As I said, public schools care much less about efficiency and quality than private schools do. Because they get the same amount of money from the state anyway.
08:12
That's bullshit.
Not here, that's for sure.
More efficiency and quality = more money for research.
And that has nothing to do with corruption either.
It's all about the state doing the less it can while maintaining a good face towards the citizens.
There is nothing inherently good about the state doing less.
"Oh, you want public schools for everybody? I see. There we go. (Yeah, I don't want to spend too much money on it though. The minimum necessary to make everybody happy)."
08:14
It's about what is best done by what system.
"Public schools? I want to spend as much as I can fit in my budget, because it'll get back more taxes."
Everytime the Dutch government has a bigger budget than expected it goes into education.
The state is a machine that tries to keep everybody happy enough to avoid resurrection while making tons of money.
No, it doesn't make money.
You mean that those in power don't make money?
Are you for real?
@orlp He's begging the question.
They have a set salary.
08:16
What question?
It doesn't change.
There's no question. It's an idiom.
It means you're assuming your conclusion in the premises.
I've said this before.
@orlp How is this relevant.
I think your view is clouded thanks to being in Italy.
Italy has massive corruption problems.
08:17
If I constantly make €1M per month, am I making tons of money?
The Netherlands doesn't have these problems.
@Jefffrey How is their salary relevant to how much money they make?
@orlp You mean the Netherlands don't have corruption?
ahahah
@Jefffrey No one in the government makes more than 130% of a minister
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH
08:18
Meritocracy
woops wrong clipboard
AHAHAHAHA
De balkenendenorm (ook JP-norm, minister-presidentnorm of premiernorm) is een vrijwillige norm uit 2006 volgens welke openbare bestuurders in Nederland niet meer zouden mogen verdienen dan 130 procent van een ministerssalaris. De balkendenorm is per 1 januari 2013 geformaliseerd in de Wet normering topinkomens met daaraan gekoppeld de WNT-norm. De balkenendenorm is vernoemd naar Jan Peter Balkenende, minister-president van Nederland van 2002–2010. De norm is tot stand gekomen nadat er in de voorafgaande jaren een toenemende maatschappelijke verontwaardiging was ontstaan over de hoge salarissen...
@Jefffrey Not in the same scale as Italy.
morning
getting out of this joint in 22 minutes to hop on a train back to civilization
with civilized software and computing power.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So you are correcting orlp?
@Jefffrey if you are in the government or in a public infrastructure company you're not allowed to make more money than 130% of a general government position.
I'm just preventing you from arguing strawmen.
Period.
This includes gifts, etc, and is checked by the tax system.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, Netherlands have no corruption problems or they don't have as much as other countries?
@Jefffrey We don't have corruption problems.
08:20
Which one?
Of course it still exists in small forms, it's unavoidable.
3 mins ago, by orlp
Italy has massive corruption problems.
But it doesn't form problems.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not a fact, but it's definitely possible.
It could also be that Italy is terrible at hiding it.
@orlp That you know of.*
@Jefffrey The problems?
How does the Netherlands hide the problems?
08:21
Listen.
If the problems are hidden.
Are they really a problem?
@orlp lol
It's indistinguishable from a solution.
Can you make it a single message so that I can star that?
If the corruption is hidden well enough that the people don't notice, there is no problem.
08:22
Too true...
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a good reference xkcd.
It explains what I mean.
When I walk into a public post office to post a mailing, people aren't rude or lazy and there are no massive queues.
Is there still some corruption going on? Probably.
Do I notice it? Nope.
You have a system with corruption problems but their noticeable effects are things actually working? Who cares about the corruption "problems", then?
I still don't see how corruption has anything to do with the postal office things.
08:24
@Jefffrey Corruption is a result of mixed interests.
@Jefffrey Not doing your job because you get the money anyway is corruption.
You have people in power that want to stay in power by making the citizes as happy as possible while keeping some money.
@Jefffrey Maybe in Italy.
@Jefffrey In the Netherlands a politician is a job like any other.
There's no "let's do good for free" kind of naive thinking, anywhere.
that's fine- it's when they're keeping the money for themselves and keeping the citizens happy by hiding the problems that result that's a problem.
@Jefffrey Boost.
Oh. Dealing in cynic absolutes again.
08:26
They're not doing good.
I'm a sith, cry me a river.
They're doing their job.
I'm happy that you think it that way. I really am.
Yes, I'm being a condescending dick.
10 mins ago, by orlp
I think your view is clouded thanks to being in Italy.
I thought Jefffrey was Murican.
08:28
You're not a dick, you just have a different point of view that you can not snap out of.
or maybe I'm remembering someone else.
I just googled "corruption index"
picked first result
The Netherlands is 8th, Italy is 69th
lol
"corruption index"es
"perceived* corruption index"
yeah, that is a very useful metric
user1804599
08:29
Ugh, fucking PEBKAC.
Corruption that is not perceived is not a problem.
it is for me
@Jefffrey It's the one that measures the actual effects of it.
How is it a problem if you can not perceive it?
user1804599
They checked "prevent this page from showing any more dialogs" and now they complain they don't get any more dialogs.
user1804599
08:30
Fuck users.
I'm honestly interested.
What problems do you have that you can not perceive?
How do you know you have those problems, if you didn't perceive them?
"You can't see bad thing X" != "X is good"
user1804599
@sehe No; I ate all cookies.
Unless you want to argue that people in the Netherlands are dumber or something and just can't see the problems, corruption without noticeable effects is harmless.
"You can't see bad thing X" == "X is good enough that you can't see bad things"
user1804599
08:31
Only Belgians are dumb.
I can't perceive criminality, but it's terrible anyway.
@Jefffrey What about 'bad thing' X has no negative effects?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you trying to put words in my mouth?
@Jefffrey He's trying to show you that you're logic is inconsistent.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you saying that corruption has no negative effects, given that in this case X=corruption?
08:32
@Jefffrey Ok, let's go ELI5.
You don't like pink cars.
@orlp No, he is trying to shove racist comments down my mouth to destroy my credibility.
I give you a car.
It looks blue.
@Jefffrey No. I'm saying that measuring the negative effects of corruption is the only valid starting point for considering it a problem.
user1804599
@Jefffrey The Dutch is not a race.
If it's secretly a pink car, but everyone sees it as a blue car, is it really a problem that it's pink?
08:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes People perceive what they want to perceive. It's not an indication of anything, except what the people think. And what the people think has no correlation with what actually happens.
People think god exists, that doesn't make it any more real to me.
@Jefffrey Go back to reading the link and work from more than three words.
@Jefffrey No, people perceive exactly what they perceive.
@orlp Yes, apples are exactly apples.
Verb: perceive (third-person singular simple present perceives, present participle perceiving, simple past and past participle perceived)
  1. To see, to be aware of, to understand.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why don't you quote the things you think I haven't read?
08:35
If you're not aware of the pink car, is it a problem?
No, because you're not fucking aware of it.
You can not have a problem with things you aren't even aware of in the first place.
you are terrible at analogies
Because your logical inconsistency makes them weird.
of course
@orlp I can have a moral problem with things even if I don't perceive them where I'm looking.
@Jefffrey No one was talking about moral problems.
I was talking about actual fucking problems.
Save me your morals.
3 mins ago, by Jefffrey
People think god exists, that doesn't make it any more real to me.
08:37
I have a problem with it racist groups going around making black people disappear. Indipendently from the fact that I can perceive it or not happening somewhere.
Someone stole $1000 so now I can't buy that car = problem
It's immoral to steal, but I've never seen someone steal, but I think it happens = not a fucking problem
@Jefffrey See, how does it matter that you perceive it?
Yeah, it doesn't.
@Jefffrey How do you know these racist groups are doing that if you never perceived it?
@Jefffrey Why do you keep bringing it up?
08:38
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have a problem with it, independently from the fact that I perceive it or not.
@Jefffrey No, you don't understand this index.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't keep bringing anything up. I'm telling you you read my message wrong.
It's not "perceived by Jefffrey"
It's "perceived"
by people
If no one is perceiving it, it's not a problem.
08:39
lol
@Jefffrey What am I reading wrong about it, then?
You know what, I'm going to make laws to solve my moral problems
There's alternate universes where everyone kills kittens
@orlp yet
No one perceives those alternate universes, but that doesn't matter
@Jefffrey So what. It's not, it's not.
08:41
If you start robbing my bank account of €10 a day, I may not perceive it. But it's a problem. And is going to bite me in the ass soon.
If it bites you in the ass.
You fucking perceive it.
If it doesn't.
@Jefffrey You'll perceive it when it bites you in the ass.
You fucking don't.
@orlp Then it's too late to do anything about it.
@Jefffrey that's irrelevant to the index
08:42
Are you arguing that the Netherlands somehow has spent years with some trickling corruption that lets everything work just fine and will be insurmontable in the future?
@R.MartinhoFernandes That wouldn't be the first time that happens AFAIK.
@Jefffrey Like?
user1804599
Everything is full of corruption.
If I spend the time of researching this and come up with an evident example, will you suck my cock?
@Jefffrey How big is it?
user1804599
08:43
I will always suck your cock.
AFAIWR = As far as I will research.
ugh
that's too pointy a cock for me
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's something I vaguely remember.
user1804599
@orlp It's merely a ballsack.
08:44
I might be wrong.
@rightføld < is the shaft
@orlp Tiny
@Jefffrey Well, it's irrelevant either way: if that's the model you want to work on, Italy is on the end of the line and the Netherlands isn't, which is the reason @orlp mentioned the corruption problems in Italy.
The fact that we might have problems in the future is only mildly relevant.
I'll be right back. I really want that blowjob.
08:45
Fact is, right now, we don't have problems.
I can't english.
I think I have a cancer problem guis
I don't have problems right now but in the future i might
help
That's short-sighted.
@rightføld you meanie
@sehe I have a cookie for you if you want it.
user1804599
@sehe I got cookies now.
Also, whatever. Your argument is ridiculous.
user1804599
08:48
But due to some silly laws I first have to ask you for permission to give you cookies.
See you physician
Welp, apparently the Greek crisis has nothing to do with corruption.
Basically, you're arguing from prophecy.
user1804599
My cookies have GPS trackers in them.
user1804599
08:48
They're tracking cookies.
I'll pass
Oh well.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why would anyone in power do better than the strict necessary to remain in power?
Things work in the Netherlands but I can assure you that at some point in the future they'll have massive corruption problems so there's no point in considering its current status. It's only Italy's status that is useful because they already have the corruption problems.
@Jefffrey You can never see the true level of corruption, but if nationwide no one indicates having problems due to corruption, it's as good as an indicator as you can get.
user1804599
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
08:51
@Jefffrey The crux lies in making the strict necessary a lot.
@orlp That doesn't answer the question.
Furthermore, make sure no one is "in power".
That's the crux of a democracy.
@Jefffrey I could explain to you the entire Dutch political system, but then we'd be sitting here tomorrow still discussing it.
@rightføld no it's a condition. ..
user1804599
It's a master of puppets.
2
user1804599
It's the Illuminati.
08:53
@orlp My question has nothing to do with the Dutch system. Is a question about wether or not, one at the highest level of power, would want to do anything better than the minimum necessary to keep it that way.
@rightføld Omg, you wrote 2 lines that are starred. Star has 5 points, 5 - 2 = 3, HL3 confirmed.
@Jefffrey I'm not willing to argue cynicism with you.
@Jefffrey The question is irrelevant because it assumes there is a "highest level of power".
@orlp Oh, there's not?
@Jefffrey Welcome to a fucking democracy.
user1804599
08:55
Democrazy.
The president of the united state is not the highest level of power in USA?
There are too many assumptions in that question that I would tacitly accept if I answered it, and I don't want to accept any of them.
@Jefffrey The US is not a democracy.
user1804599
@Jefffrey No, Goldman Sachs is.
At least not in my book.
08:55
@orlp Senators, whatever.
I'm not saying there must be 1 guy, I'm saying "when one reaches the top level of power". There's always a top level of power for any person.
Well, for a dictator, the answer to your question is probably yes.
But as you democrationalise your system, the answer slowly fades to no.
As I said, 1 guy in power, 10 guys in power, 1000 guys in power don't make any difference.
@Jefffrey But I will answer it from a purely strategical point of view.
A true democratic system where everyone has an equal voice it's 100% no.
lol
that system doesn't exist mate
not yet
08:57
It existed.
@Jefffrey There is direct democracy in Switzerland, mate.
The Swiss system is close.
@Jefffrey You want to do better than the minimum necessary because the minimum necessary is not easy to quantify, so you should hedge your bets.
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, sure
Either way, it's existence is irrelevant.
08:58
@Jefffrey Why do you disagree?
If there is one system where the answer is a resounding yes, and another is a resounding no, is it that hard to understand there are middle forms?
If I told you that the highest position in the netherlands is "politician" that earns a maximum set salary of 1.3x that of a regular government worker?
user1804599
You only have power if you have a lot of money.
@rightføld You only have power if people give you that power.
user1804599
And they do if you give them money or you threaten hip hip hurray.
Money is only worth something only exactly as long as they view it as something valuable.
09:01
I lost any will to discuss this any further. From the point you insulted me, this has become a "who wins competition" and not a "let's discuss it for the sake of having fun and being constructive" discussion. You are in 2 (or maybe 3 at some point) vs 1, so whatever I say will always mean minority and therefore loss.
I insulted you?
Who insulted you?
user1804599
Especially if you make them have debts with you.
2 hours ago, by orlp
@Jefffrey Are you really that stupid?
Holy shit, 2 hours ago.
2 hours ago, by orlp
Sorry
user1804599
09:02
And money is a very effective debt in that regard.
@orlp Oh, so it's all fine.
That's a statement of incredulity.
The tone went downhill from there.
It did?
Where did it get worse?
It seemed quite civil to me.
When I finally responded to the insults.
09:03
@Jefffrey No offense, but I replied to you suggesting the government could magically determine the exact grades students will get.
Which, unless they perfect mind control, is impossible.
2 hours ago, by Jefffrey
@R.MartinhoFernandes If the state says you have to have a 60% above 18, 10% above 25 and 2% above 29, then you cannot strive away from that.
Then it came the mocking about the world tour thing.
2 hours ago, by orlp
@Jefffrey No they fucking can't?
@Jefffrey "Are you really that stupid?" is a way of stating that he actually thinks you're smarter than that...
Now, you're just being silly.
I am being blunt.
I am stupid. I have no problem admitting that.
I am at times not even being civil in my word choices.
But at no times did I intend to insult anyone.
I might have insulted your ideas, but that's what discussion is for.
At no point was I trying to take personal jabs at you.
09:07
There's constructive insults and insults only. You almost never gave a constructive insult at first shot, I had to ask you to explain and then it became constructive.
user1804599
You are a moron!
Explain what insult? WTF.
I know baby.
And no, there are no constructive insults.
2 hours ago, by orlp
That's absolutely terrible.
09:09
That's not an insult.
It's blunt disagreeing with your idea.
user1804599
Easter is nice.
Only because you have emotional attachment with your ideas you view it as an insult.
user1804599
jefffrey y u no nihilism
That's actually an instance of a constructive insult to the idea, so discard that.
It's not an insult.
It's not disrespectful in any way.
user1804599
09:10
I laugh at all three of you.
@rightføld Fuck off.
"The philosophy of insults" by The C++ Lounge
It's hard to go trough 2 hours of transcript searching for specific instances in a time when I can expect you to wait me.
It's harder if there are none.
09:12
Of course you would say that.
@Jefffrey just let it be man, you'll feel better
I like how you always try to manipulate things, though. I seriously respect that.
That's a completely different style from most people I know.
user1804599
Can you laugh asynchronously?
I hope you're trolling.
I hope you're rolling
09:13
@chmod711telkitty I hope you're lolling
@R.MartinhoFernandes I really am not.
I'll leave and I'll be back when people are not attacking my character any more, then.
lol
are you offended?
@orlp I hope so too ^_^
user1804599
goodbye robor
@Jefffrey now look what you've done! are you happy with yourself?
Actually I am.
user1804599
In Gallo-Roman religion, Robor or Roboris was a god invoked alongside the genius loci on a single inscription found in Angoulême. == External links == Robur in celtnet == References... ==
user1804599
TIL
09:15
@AlexPana (he is not really offended btw)
user1804599
Nice. 20 degrees in Spain at the end of this week.
user1804599
I can't wait.
nothing beats the sight of pale nerds on the beach
@Jefffrey Yes, I was.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No you weren't.
09:24
Well, fuck off. I'll be in the snow outside.
user1804599
!important :(
Typicons (webfont icons) are cool.
user1804599
Bleh.
user1804599
09:39
> 
Morning
you already said morning
Not whilst on the train to civilization
Did you arrive?
09:45
@Puppy I thought you worked in Bristol?
That's why I'm going bad there
user1804599
user1804599
Does it also look like that to you? It's really silly.
It can look like anything.
That source is outdated btw.
There are two entire planes of private use characters, which means some orders of magnitude more than 6400.
It's 18 years outdated.
user1804599
Nice.

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