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07:00
Maybe a middle group would be great.
Well, the point is that different schools have different qualities, correct?
Like, one school can be better than another school.
How it works here in the Netherlands is different.
If you want to go to a better school you'll need better grades.
Interesting
Everyone takes the same basic schooling aged 4-12
Then you go to middle school aged 12-16/17/18, of which there are three levels
lowest level is 4 years, middle is 5 years, highest is 6 years
lowest -> job education like cooking, plumbing, etc
middle -> average education like accountant, etc
highest -> academic education
I see
the first couple of years in middle school you can still swap in level if your grades are better/worse than expected
if you finish one level of schooling you are eligible for the next as well
so you can enter academic education with an average education diploma
07:06
I'd go with abolishing schools entirely.
hello guys,may you lend me your ears for a while.i want a help
And have only courses you can attend to and that give you a certificate.
@Jefffrey at what level? surely not aged 4-12
Any age
Age is irrelevant imho.
But
That's absolutely terrible.
07:07
The final score you get defines how much you pay.
Schools are vital for children to learn social contact as well as protect children from bad parents.
There's a reason it's mandatory (at least here in the netherlands)
Like: fixed quota * score to total score ratio.
@orlp I don't think that "protect children from bad parents" is a responsibility of school. The state could spend effort into a specialized field for that.
Also you misunderstood me. You still have school, but you don't have schools. You make your own school, by following your own courses.
The state can enforce a minimum number of courses you can attend to and that's it.
But things should be split into courses, not schools.
Until education is fully digital that's infeasible.
Whether education will become fully digital is something we'll have to see.
Courses are forced to have a certain "score average", so that they don't always give bad scores to get more money.
?
How would they get more money by giving bad scores?
07:12
5 mins ago, by Jefffrey
The final score you get defines how much you pay.
I fail to understand how that works?
You go to the course you want to attend. You attend it and then you make an exam there. And they give you a score (let's say out of 30). If I took 15/30 and the course cost is €100, then I pay 100 - 100 * 15/30 = 100 - 100 * 1/2 = 100 - 50 = €50
And you can put that score in your curriculum.
There, fixed.
Well your example would be unambiguous if you chose 20/30 as your example score
I don't like 2/3
Either way, I still don't like it, and there's serious moral issues.
07:17
@orlp Such as?
Puts pressure on students.
If you're designing a system, never put people in a position where negatively affecting society is in their personal benefit.
And the school profits more if it doesn't succeed.
Oops, looks like everyone failed this class
@orlp How is it the case?
6 mins ago, by Jefffrey
Courses are forced to have a certain "score average", so that they don't always give bad scores to get more money.
07:18
But that's bullshit.
How so?
@Jefffrey But they always give the average.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, they don't.
@Jefffrey Because scores are supposed to be determined by the students, not the school?
(Which would be the case anyway, as no one would go to a school where they always flunk you, so the market would equalize it without policy)
07:19
And the students as a group certainly don't have to and can't adhere to some government set "average"
@Jefffrey Why not?
@R.MartinhoFernandes If the state says you have to have a 60% above 18, 10% above 25 and 2% above 29, then you cannot strive away from that.
There's no incentive to lose money by giving higher grades.
@Jefffrey Which makes no sense.
@R.MartinhoFernandes How so?
@Jefffrey Are you really that stupid?
Sorry
07:20
@Jefffrey What do you do with a class that doesn't fit that distribution?
Are they going to put the students in jail if they don't get those grades?
Fake the grades?
Or how are you going to enforce those grades?
Filling in the exam for the students?
@R.MartinhoFernandes The course adapts grades dynamically.
@Jefffrey Then diplomas are worthless.
07:21
So grades are merely a local ranking in the class.
Yes.
Kinda pointless globally.
Rather pointless locally too.
Anyone can pass any class for a set cost.
It says how you compare to those that you have around you.
Which is just num_of_students * worst_grade_cost * 1.1.
Since you can pay everyone more than it'll cost them to enroll if they promise to get a 0/30.
07:23
@Jefffrey But that's a completely useless metric once you finish the course.
Not at all.
What's the use?
"I'm better than at least seven people!"
It says how much you know more than your collegues in a certain field in your area.
@Jefffrey Your twenty colleagues in the field of studying.
Don't forget jefffrey, that it costs the government nothing in the long term to subsidize studies.
Since higher earning population pay more taxes.
07:24
@R.MartinhoFernandes In the field the course is focused on?
@Jefffrey So, you're basically stuck with no mobility, then?
I don't see what's wrong with the Dutch system, it works.
There's all kinds of flaws with this pay-for-a-course system.
The wrong personal interests in the wrong places.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can go anywhere you want. More prestigious courses will of course be attended more therefore setting a higher level of quality.
The only cost a study should have is opportunity cost.
Here in the netherlands if you study you can't fulltime work - that's your cost.
@Jefffrey No, I mean no mobility after the course.
07:27
Saying I got 20/30 from the PrestigiousCourseA and saying that you got 30/30 in CourseInTheMiddleOfNowhere will mean different things.
Since it tells you something about how you can fare in some few square kilometres in your vicinity.
@R.MartinhoFernandes How so? People can go to attend different courses in different countries
@Jefffrey Pity no one will be able to tell which different things they'll mean, though.
Courses can even move and perform a tour around the world for all I care.
@Jefffrey I'm sure smart teachers are lining up for this already!
07:28
@Jefffrey So what is the meaning of "in your area" with that?
@R.MartinhoFernandes How so?
You're just making it worse.
Writing papers, dealing with students and travelling around the world?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nothing. Forget it.
Why the fuck not?
07:29
@Jefffrey How do you rank the two courses?
@Jefffrey Don't forget that in academic education your professors are active researchers as well.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Someone ranks school. Someone will rank courses.
Someone?
Who says that Cambridge is a better school than University of Napoli?
That is exactly what doesn't work in government systems.
07:30
Those guys.
When "someone" has to do something.
Seriously, ranking is a non-issue.
@Jefffrey It is an issue if you remove metrics.
Even jobs could rank courses.
@Jefffrey No they fucking can't?
@orlp How so?
@Jefffrey No, no, explain how they can.
Please do
Do they hire some extra HR people for that?
@R.MartinhoFernandes "I got 3 very brilliant students for the course of Functional programming in Haskell #X".
07:32
Oh, they rank them after the hires.
That may be a stretch though. In any case, ranking is a solved problem.
2 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Jefffrey It is an issue if you remove metrics.
@Jefffrey Did you mean "I got a statistically insignificant amount of arbitrarily rated employees from course X, annd wait why was I spending time and money on giving you this feedback?"
@R.MartinhoFernandes Before it's hard to know how prepared a person is, yes.
@orlp They don't. They simply hire more people from course X.
@Jefffrey And afterwards the ranking is meaningless, because you already have a much better indicator.
07:34
Which will make people frequent course X more. Which will make it harder, etc...
@Jefffrey How does more people attending a course make it harder?
@Jefffrey No, it won't.
Is there a fight to the death over who gets to enter the classroom?
@orlp You have more competition, given that your vote is dependent on the other students of that same course.
Because if you don't win over your classmates, you pay more.
07:35
@R.MartinhoFernandes More people doesn't mean an higher average?
And it's harder to win over your classmates with bigger classes.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Exactly
@orlp It's easier to beat seven people than it is to beat seventy.
@Jefffrey Exactly what?
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
Which will make people frequent course X more. Which will make it harder, etc...
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's easier to lose as well.
@Jefffrey Exactly "this is a lie"?
07:35
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's only more volatile, not easier/harder.
@R.MartinhoFernandes This is exactly what I'm saying.
And you are too apparently.
@Jefffrey No, I'm not.
The only thing more people in course X does is make the average grade less volatile.
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
And it's harder to win over your classmates with bigger classes.
I'm saying it won't make anyone frequent anything more.
07:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes If more jobs value course X more, you don't want to go to attend course X?
@Jefffrey No, because it will be more expensive.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It will also assure you a better chance of getting the job.
All it will assure is economical stratification of access to education.
And this is what's wrong with privatizing education. It's bad for the economy. It's best for the economy if people have incentive to study that which is in demand with employers.
Rather than be discouraged.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Courses will cost between €0-100, let's say. The minimal courses are payed for you by the state, the rest you do what you want.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It will assure that better students pay less.
Worse students pay more.
07:40
Worse students are in less of a position to pay the better students
Why punish the poor performing in favor of the better performing?
It's a crude system of encouraging performance that only hurts those who are already hurt.
@Jefffrey Yes, and that puts financial pressure on students to do well, which is a terrible incentive.
You're whipping them into good grades.
38 mins ago, by orlp
If you want to go to a better school you'll need better grades.
Again, the only cost with education should be opportunity cost.
@Jefffrey The reason this works is because you wouldn't be able to handle the better schooling if you didn't grasp the previous knowledge.
@R.MartinhoFernandes School, costs. If you do bad you pay more. That problem is not solved anywhere AFAIK.
@Jefffrey And this wasn't about schools per se, but about levels of education.
07:42
"I need to pass this shit or I'll be broke" doesn't lend itself to actually learning.
lol, yeah, miswrote
fuck me
now
@Jefffrey Yes, and if you pay more, you'll study less (because you can't afford it).
You're just widening the gap that all other factors create.
Punishing the poor is always a bad idea.
Poorly performing students need to afford studying.
@orlp Because I'd rather favour those that apply themselves rather that those that don't.
07:44
"You failed your study? Here's some debt to go with that"
@orlp Meritocracy.
They don't need to be kicked out into the gutter as punishment.
You see it as "Punishing the poor performing" I see it as "Favouring those that apply themselves".
:20681958
@Jefffrey Not really. The wealthy can do fine without good grades.
07:45
@Jefffrey You're not favouring anyone.
@orlp I like how we went from "poor performing" to "poor".
@Jefffrey Poor can be financial, social, mental, etc, they're all related.
@R.MartinhoFernandes The wealthy can do fine without school. I don't see how that's a problem with my specific idea.
@Jefffrey We didn't. They're two separate flaws. The poor can't afford to fail.
Meritocracy is fine, but do not seperate subjects.
Failure to educate yourself is punished by failure of getting the diploma.
Not failure by getting hurt financially.
07:47
@R.MartinhoFernandes In this system you have a minimum free number of courses you can attend.
@Jefffrey Why not make it all free?
The current system that you all love favour better performing students with scholarships.
@Jefffrey So the poor get less education?
@Jefffrey I don't love the american system at all.
There are no scholarships here.
Your education is free, period.
@orlp You also could.
This system doesn't stop that.
07:49
Except the only thing you've talked about is the financial aspect and "someone" rating courses and world touring.
If you take out the financial aspect we're only left with "someone" rating courses and world touring, which isn't that much of an idea at all.
@orlp Not at all. You guys were concerned about meritocracy so we talked a lot about it, but that's not all.
@Jefffrey I'm not concerned about meritocracy
Circlejerkracy.
I'm concerned about amplifying it beyond reason
The world is naturally a meritocracy
@orlp You are left with schools split into indipendent courses and course-level meritocracy.
07:50
If you're smart
or hard working
you pass the course
That's your fucking merit right there.
And by course-level meritocracy I mean: If your course is bad, you don't get money.
Which is something state schools lack AFAIK.
What if I told you that your shitty state schools are shitty because of brain drain from the shitty system that privatizes good teachers?
Not because teachers are inherently shitty.
I would ask you to explain your statements, like I've done every time for the past hours or so.
What do you think requires explanation?
1 min ago, by orlp
What if I told you that your shitty state schools are shitty because of brain drain from the shitty system that privatizes good teachers?
07:54
He means that state schools are shitty because of brain drain from the shitty system that privatizes good teachers.
Yes, what's there to explain?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, I see.
@orlp Can you rephrase that? I have no idea what you mean.
words what are those things
Privatized universities concentrate the money and brains into hot spots.
It's a feedback loop.
Employers want to see them on your CV, so people want to go there more, making them more expensive.
This in turn opens more money for the research there, attracting better teachers, and it amplifies.
This might sounds like a good thing, until you realize that all the other places now are left behind.
So you end up with "shitty state schools".
I simplified this concept to what's known in international economy as "brain drain".
IMHO state schools are shitty because there's no quality check. Not as much as private schools.
07:58
@Jefffrey You'd be wrong.
You have the state money backing you up, so you can just live forever as a state school. Private schools can't afford being terrible for a single year.
There are no schools.
There are only teachers.
Bad teachers can't afford terrible years or they'll get fired.
Here in Italy you see this a lot.

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