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21:02
Right now, you need to pre-define a traits class, and (in a typical case) provide a specialization for that traits class for any type to which you might want to apply it. With concepts built into the language, you should be able to do quite a bit more to put together a query about (for example) a class' capabilities on an ad hoc basis, without having to implement so much framework to support doing so (because most of it is just retrieving information the compiler already has).
user3010322
@Xeo Do you think that maybe clang's failure to properly resolve overload resolution for the argument-only lists is a defect in Clang and not just non-standard GCC behavior?
Xeo
Xeo
dunno, duncare
user3010322
The more I think about it, the more I think that g++ has the right idea and its clang just not working.
user3010322
Maybe I should ask an SO question...
user3010322
... Meh, whatever, I gave the user workarounds.
user3010322
21:10
@Xeo What've you been up to these days anyways?
Xeo
Xeo
gaaaaames
sleeeeep
Xeo
Xeo
37 mins ago, by Xeo
Games > Sleep
user3010322
@Xeo Which games? :o
Dreams > Games
Sleep ~ Dreams
Sleep > Games
user3010322
21:11
@Jefffrey Games > Nightmares
Xeo
Xeo
@ThePhD Minecraft, Terraria, VNs, and soon some other stuff
Nightmares are non-boring dreams.
user3010322
Yeah, they're not boring because they're terrifying.
Yeah, guess why people love thrillers or horrors.
Ell
Ell
@JerryCoffin Ahh I see
thank you :)
21:12
Because we love to feel our heart pumping.
user3010322
In a controlled environment in which you can opt-out or stop the horror anytime.
You can stop your nightmares anytime.
user3010322
Maybe you can.
In fact, your subconscious will opt-out automagically when it feels like it is going out of hand.
user3010322
A little harder to do that with nightmares invented by your own brain preying upon your deepest fears and weaknesses. Since it knows this stuff since it is, indeed, your own brain.
21:14
You subconscious is just testing your abilities under pressure in a totally safe and controlled environment.
user3010322
:l
It's just not controlled by your conscious you.
I think I've read somewhere that some nightmares are way to test possible future bad outcomes; so that you'll be prepared if they happen.
Xeo
Xeo
@Jefffrey I hate horror movies.
My imagination is too vivid.
That lead to an interesting digression on the possibility that deja-vus are just the projection of what we experienced in some of this "let's test this outcome" dreams.
That was an interesting article.
@Xeo Sleep well tonight. :>
welp
RIP DeadMG's headphone cable.
user3010322
21:21
Did you trip over it?
be sure to give it a proper burial
nah just frayed
sbi
sbi
@Puppy Actually, this was mostly prompted by you denying reality. Sorry if I offended you, but, as @Jerry said, I was just in the mood to be harshly realistic.
say hello to cheaper-than-chips ipod headphones
sbi
sbi
Also, there's this nagging feeling I have that the puppy needs a serious whack on the head in order to get things sorted. :)
21:25
@sbi Unless you're a time traveller, then I'm pretty sure that's after you decided to be unnecessarily unpleasant.
sbi
sbi
@Puppy Except for this (which I'd defend as realistic, too), I have no idea what you might be referring to.
so, can I just say that while I don't believe for a second that Wide will ever become a production quality language, or really something that anyone other than Puppy will use, you have come a heck of a lot farther with it than I ever thought you would. Regardless of everything else, I'm kind of impressed by that. :)
sbi
sbi
Ok, to give this a positive turn: I can absolutely relate to that surprise. :)
for a hobby "I'm gonna make the language to end all languages" kind of project, you've gotten further than most.
13
Q: How to handle troll comments on a question that's over 2 years old?

Sterling ArcherSo... I think I'm being trolled or something. Javascript error: Unexpected token '}' This question is over 2 years old, solved, and he wont stop commenting and saying he's flagging me and starting to get rude. Can a moderator please wipe the comments or something? I've flagged a couple as obso...

^^ lol
21:38
hmm.. a professor teaching C++ asked me to review the course material. Among the first few problems that a student should solve to pass the course is to use a debugger to find out why a certain program doesn't behave as "expected". good or bad? surely, debuggers are part of everyday c++ development, but I'm getting.. mixed feelings.
sure, the students should be familiar with a debugger, but I'm not sure if that is directly associated with the grade of the class (which is about knowing c++)
Xeo
Xeo
being able to debug your program is one of the most essential skills ever
considering how many people graduate without knowing how to use a debugger, I'd say including it in the course makes a lot of sense
whether or not it should be part of the final grade, I have no idea
but teaching it, yes
(and forcing students to practice using it)
@jalf They sure as hell didn't teach us how to use a debugger.
Everyone does printf debugging.
@FilipRoséen-refp Yes, sometimes crazy shit happens that cannot be picked up by static code analysis for example static calls to functions inside a .lib that fucks your stack (happened to be).
Ell
Ell
@Mysticial the best kind of debugging ;)
21:40
@jalf that's the main issue, whether it should be part of the grade or not
You have a class full of Windows users, and they're trying to get us to use gdb??? Yeah... ahahaha
@Mysticial You have a class full of Windows users!?
@FilipRoséen-refp honestly, it wouldn't bother me if it were
@Mikhail The vast majority of the students in beginner programming classes are Windows users.
@jalf maybe not, I've been going back and forth on this.. and I'm guessing I might as well just lean towards the "it's part of everyday c++ development, it should be in the course"
sbi
sbi
21:41
@FilipRoséen-refp When I taught C++, the first exercise was to take "Hello, world!" and turn it into a multi-translation unit program. You'd be surprised how many failed at that. And I wish I'd have had the idea to make one about using the debugger. Those students had had a year of programming (in Java) behind them, and most didn't have the faintest idea what a debugger even is.
@Mysticial Users, sure but they are taught on terminals that connect to linux... ?
This particular course kinda mandates (but I'm not sure if it's more of a recommendation) to use ddd (ie. the graphical front-end of gdb)
@Mikhail Which everyone hates. Most of the students find it easier to printf debug then to learn gdb. At least not until like their senior year.
@sbi it's a skill that I'd still want the course to teach, so I'm guessing I will not raise any objection on leaving it in (but maybe it shouldn't be a part of the grade?)
FWIW, I still don't know how to use gdb. In Windows, the VS debugger is easy to use.
21:43
@sbi that's a very good first exercise, I might steal that one from you; if you don't mind?
And I do all my Linux debugging with printfs.
Granted, I rarely ever write code in Linux.
I just included #include "atlstr.h", we seriously need to get rid of this Windows thing
sbi
sbi
@FilipRoséen-refp I dunno. Isn't the grade for showing how much a student has learned from what you taught?
@FilipRoséen-refp Of course, feel free to do so!
@sbi the grade should reflect the knowledge of what the course description (maybe "summary" is a better word to use) says the course is about.. I'll go over the course description/summary and see what I can find
thanks for the input everyone!
@sbi At least usually, you set the goals for the course ahead of time. Depending on the situation (and students) it can be entirely reasonable to teach some extra "stuff" that isn't a required part of the course, so it shouldn't be included in grading (except, perhaps, as extra credit). Whether that makes sense here would depend on the intent of the course--if it's to teach "development", then debugging should almost certainly be included. If it's to teach the language, then perhaps not.
21:47
oh snap, the course description actually (rougly) translates to "A course in computer science that will yield well knowledge of C++, and techniques associated with effective development of large systems written in C++". Now there's no doubt that the course should involve the use of debuggers
sbi
sbi
@FilipRoséen-refp You might not believe it, but I had one student who, given an object, a member function name, and a parameter, didn't know how to call the member function with the parameter. (I have no idea how he got through this one year of Java.) Should I have let him pass, because teaching the basics of OOP wasn't part of the course's description?
when I talked to the professor he described it as the course main goal was to teach "standard c++"
Xeo
Xeo
For now, he seems like a good professor.
@sbi of course not, but I don't see the relation between using a debugger to debug an application, and actually writing that application - if the course is about C++ one should of course know how to call a member-function
@FilipRoséen-refp At a modern university, studying engineering, you can skip almost every class...
21:49
@sbi being able to call a member function isn't just OOP. It's also C++. If the course claims to teach C++, calling a member function seems like it's part of that. ;)
anyway, I'd better get some sleep. Have fun, all!
sbi
sbi
@jalf After having turned in his exercises in Java for one year, do you really think I should have explained o.f(m) to him? (Other than that I used it in the lecture, of course, where he should have seen it.)
I guess I should focus on things such as that many of the tasks involved in the course are primarily written to fit c++03 (they just haven't been updated). An implementation similar to std::vector should of course also mandate that std::initializer_list is part of the interface, as well has being able to initialize it using iterators (not sure why that isn't in there)..
sbi
sbi
@FilipRoséen-refp I am currently working on a platform where there is no debugger available. That makes you plainly see the relationship between "developing serious applications" and "using a debugger" – I feel amputated having none.
@jalf Good night!
@FilipRoséen-refp Will the professor at this point already have taught (member) function templates? Without them, those ctors are hard to do. :)
@sbi function/class templates should have been taught, but I'm not sure if member-function templates are even touched in the class (I see nothing about them in the problems that a student must solve to pass)
but the implementation similar to that of std::vector mandates the knowledge of class templates, at least
@jalf Good night.
@FilipRoséen-refp Function templates (and type deduction) are enough different from class templates that it's a bit of a jump (though not a huge one). From other class templates to member function templates isn't all that much new though (IOW, as long as they've dealt with some sort of function templates previously, I wouldn't worry much about member function templates as a possibly new introduction).
21:59
@sbi Huh? No. I'm saying that if he deserved to fail, and if the grade must be determined based on the course description, then as long as "C++" is in the course description, you've got a pretty good case for giving him a failing grade, whether or not "the basics of OOP" is also in the description. :)
@sbi was the java course a requirement to have the class you taught?
anyway, seeya!
also, enjoy your vacation! Don't spend it all hanging around in here :p
sbi
sbi
@FilipRoséen-refp Yup.
Xeo
Xeo
Oops. Midnight. Sleep.
user3010322
@Xeo I hashed it out in the standardese.
user3010322
22:00
Apparently Clang is righ wdhawhdjwajk
user3010322
Why are you going to sleep. D:
Xeo
Xeo
Second word.
@ThePhD I like standardese, what's up?
user3010322
Oh. Well. Good night.
argh, github uses red for closed issues and green for open issues
I think it should be the other way around
red signals something is wrong
green signals all's well
user3010322
22:03
@FilipRoséen-refp It's related to this code... coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/56ce6239804f38be
user3010322
Deduction fails for clang++, but if ytou switch to g++ it works fine.
user3010322
So it became a question fo who's right, and the answer is apparently clang.
user3010322
Hm. Coliru is frozen again.
@ThePhD what exact wording was part on making the verdict?
user3010322
@FilipRoséen-refp N3936 14.8.1 [temp.arg.explicit]/9
user3010322
22:15
The jist of it is, as STL has explained to me and as I've unfortunately learned, it allows further arguments to be decuded beyond what has been provided. Because it can do that, it can "deduce" other overloads of overloaded and thus makes it ambiguous.
@ThePhD interesting, indeed.
@ThePhD whoa, TIL
user3010322
Still, GCC is now technically "non-conformant" ?
user3010322
But to be honest I like their non-conformant behavior. It works. ._.
@ThePhD honestly I find [temp.arg.explicit]p9 very.. not intuitive
user3010322
DEMS DA RULEZ.
22:21
I mean, it make sense.. a theoretically infinite list is an infinite list, no matter if you explicitly state the starting sequence
but to get around the mini-problem you now have you'd have to walk so far around the block that you will be in the middle of the ocean
@ThePhD No compiler is 100% conformant.
user3010322
vOv
Does STL even like MSVC?
user3010322
We didn't test this using MSVC. ._.
user3010322
I could ask, though?
22:24
There's a 100% chance it'll fail
Had to apply contact-cleaner to my Razer mouse again.
Never had clicking problems with a mouse, except for the most expensive one I ever got.
I've been using delegate constructors a couple of times recently. It's a nice little feature.
user3010322
@Rapptz Well, I already filed bugs against it in MSVC so. I know it doesn't work there.
Haven't used the new member initialization syntax a lot though.
@ThePhD tried writing a solution to the problem?
user3010322
@FilipRoséen-refp The solution is to specifyingf the signature, and then overloading the resolve function to deal with 1-template-argument functions as the signature.
22:33
@ThePhD that's one solution, but I was thinking something nicer
user3010322
E.g. resolve<int(int, int, int)>( overloaded )
user3010322
Well, the nice syntax is what clang doesn't like ( resolve<int, int, int>( overloaded ), equivalent to above).
user3010322
The three-argument case works because there's no "more" it can add to the list to make it disambiguous.
user3010322
But when you do resolve<int, int> you run into the infinite-list problem, e.g. that it can deduce an extra int for you.
user3010322
22:35
I thought that just adding 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 overload functions could do the trick
user3010322
but that doesn't work
user3010322
I was told that using std::enable_if might solve the problem.
user3010322
And doing some complex expression checks and stuff.
user3010322
But really, that's more work than it's worth I think.
@ThePhD I don't think so, the problem is that you must narrow down the possible overload set of overloaded by making it so that the compiler cannot expand on the Args..., the problem boils down to having Args... be deduced in a context where it isn't explicit stated, but not allowing the compiler to expand on it when it is specified
that's a reply to the std::enable_if
std::enable_if will kick in too late
22:43
Well well. I just spent 10 minutes to figure out that you basically just crammed some unrelated employee sample right into your existing code. I have a hard time coming up with reasons not to see this a "Write my code for me" type request. (Kudos for the SSSCE, though). — sehe 3 mins ago
hmm, I got an idea
just gonna smoke first
die happily oops. Enjoy :S
Did you try storing the Args... parameter pack into a type list?
user3010322
@Rapptz That would require forwarding the function, which is impossible because it's an overloaded set.
no?
user3010322
22:45
Try it.
but then Args... won't be deduced when it's not explicitly specified?
user3010322
template <typename... Args, typename R>
void resolve( F&& f ) {
     resolve( types<R(Args...)>{}, std::forward<F>(f));
}
user3010322
^ Will break
gimme a sec
but I have an idea that should work, let me type it out
user3010322
22:47
If you mean specifying types<Args...> as an argument
user3010322
to resolve
user3010322
At the top-level
user3010322
that might work?
user3010322
Or, do you mean resolve<types<int, int>>() ?
22:49
Coliru is insanely slow
Sorry. It might have been me. Although I had a patch where I couldn't make simple programs to compile within timeout
@StackedCrooked what's the default timeout again these days? I had a brilliant race earlier:
sehe@desktop:~$ curl coliru.stacked-crooked.com/…
Timeout is now 30 seconds
Obviously, it wasn't me setting it to 30s :)
hm, the default is still 20
@StackedCrooked It appears someone might be continuosly hitting it to peg it to 30s then
It's consistently reporting 30 on get
apparently I changed it to 30
lol
That race was still miffing
22:55
That could explain some of the problems.
It must have been the auto-reset kicking in after processing the put request and before generating the response
user3010322
@Rapptz This doesn't quite work.
@CatPlusPlus Oh wow. It took me a while to realize that they didn't mean to imply that the speach was from behind sound-proof glass. That totally baffled me right there. To think that the bag would still move even after the glass plane had reduced the sound to inaudible levels o.O
lol this changed my wife
user3010322
@Borgleader WELCOME HOME ♥
0
Q: rep barrier to entry is fucking stupid

Rancur3p1c The noob questions have all been answered so you use search you found something helpful but you can't vote up you need clarification so you can't comment you have a $120k degree from a top-five institution but aren't allowed to provide input (should I fax my diploma in???) you have plenty of rep...

23:07
@ThePhD oro? o.o
user3010322
Just bein' happy to see you. :D
template<class...> struct A { A (int); };
template<class... Ts> void f (A<Ts...>);

int main() { f<int> (0); /* ill-formed, quiz: why? */ }
@ThePhD ^ that's kinda interesting (speaking of what we have been talking about)
actually I'm not sure it is actually ill-formed, but it's rejected by both clang and gcc so I'm just assuming that is the case, but I'll have to further dig in the Standard to know for sure
shouldnt it be f(A<int>(0)); ?
i cant even variadic template
user3010322
No, it should be f.
user3010322
23:12
f is a function call
user3010322
That takes an A<Ts....>
Answer, based on what @ThePhD previously stated; The compiler will try to further deduce the contents of the parameter pack Ts of f, and since Ts... cannot be deduced from int (ie. "decltype(0)") we get a diagnostic saying that it's ill-formed. So even though A<int> have a conversion-constructor from int.. well, it doesn't matter
if this is actually what the Standard says should happen in that context is.. well, the next question.
user3010322
The next question is why overloads that do extra deductions aren't considered as "lesser candidates" than explicit versions that work?
@ThePhD indeed, and maybe that's worthy of a DR (but the quote from temp.arg.explicit]p9 kinda indicates that this is by design, if that design decision properly considered the implications of it is another question)
23:33
@Mysticial burninated
hang on
That was swift.
Have there really been changes to the reputation system over the years?
I don’t remember complaints about gating in the past, and I’m curious how much is due to the influx of new people what with the popularity of SO (so, more idiots) vs any actual changes to the system.
The rep system is still the same. But they're messing with the homepage and the visibility of various questions.
23:42
What effect does that have?
Right now the homepage emphasizes unanswered questions - which is basically all the crap.
They're experimenting with changing that.
To algorithmically detect bad questions and bury them. Likewise, detect good questions and show them on the homepage.
Eh, I was under the impression that late answers to a question were not as seen as before (except by the OP I suppose). That could have been a factor…
Depending on how well it goes, they want to implement a filter that hides all bad questions unless you opt-in.
So people like us who get sick of bad questions (except for the occasional entertaining troll) will never see the bad questions.
That could go so wrong. Oh well, I suppose they don’t have to roll it out all at once.
But the repwhores can opt-in and still answer them if they want.
@LucDanton They're definitely not gonna do it all at once.
Right now, they're still training their machine-learning AI logic.
23:46
AI? Oh then nothing can go wrong.
I, for one, etc.
Which is why they're not doing it all at once. :)
Nah, they should flip the switch on a friday and go on vacation.
They're also turning up the auto-deletion rules.
Since you're taking away visibility from the crap questions, there won't be anywhere to close/delete them.
So that'll be automated.
Thanks for my daily abdominal exercise. I guess the 5k people, like me will take the brunt of that fall.
Wow that’s extensive and in depth.
23:49
For uses like us: A lot less crap on the homepage and question lists.
For repwhores: They can opt-in and answer all the crap questions.
For good askers: They get their question seen by people like us.
For bad askers: Their question gets ignored and auto-deleted after some time.
^^ That's the ultimate goal.
I like the idea. Though nobody is sure how well it will actually work.
I don't even like the idea.
I’m not gonna lie, I’ve been only watching relatively low traffic tags and nothing else. I suppose I could try a bit more or whatever.
I used to watch the homepage. It's full of crap.
@Mysticial Since companies in their recruitment interviews ask more and more about your SO rep, effectively there always be more and more bad kids that try to cheat.
Which is better.
That popcnt question that I answered on Friday was from that recommended tab.
23:55
I see a lot of 0-or-less Qs, but I’ll keep an eye on that in the future.
Okay. FWIW: here's the SSCCE without some of the noise: 67 instead of 179 lines of code (not even counting the multi-index sample code). I'm still not sure what you expect to happen. What does "I would like to be able to independently iterate through the LoadableFiles using one of the 4 indexes" mean? Do you expect to keep the map of maps? Why not? Would you still require the same uniqueness guarantees? Is this actually more like a database table (i.e. flat with unique constraints)? — sehe 2 mins ago
I can’t imagine 4-way indexing with multi-index containers. And to have a definitive answer, that looks like too much ‘work’ (i.e. read documentation on someone’s behalf).
See my earlier comments indeed.
Pretend I put ‘indeed’ somewhere relevant in my previous message.
I really like doing this code styling/simplification trick a bit too much. Reminds me of my Twitter conversation with Andrew Barber yesterday
@LucDanton :D
23:59
Oh dear, double spacing after a period.

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