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9:01 AM
want C++ modules :(
 
Xeo
headers are the new modules!
 
@MarkGarcia Sounds just like the ranges one.
 
Modules > ranges
:(
 
@sehe I can't delvote (it's 15k+ IIRC)
@Rapptz WHY NOT BOTH
 
9:06 AM
because you can't have your cake and eat it in C++ land.
most of the time you can't even have a cake
2
 
:D
see, use Haskell instead
oh wait you dislike the syntax
 
@sbi I've been meaning to pick up one of those sant... Japaneses knives for a while now.
 
@A.H. the L is barely visible :F
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol, sadly I can't see the final state of the answer. And in our defense, I thought I was mocking you not the OP.
 
@A.H. I'm putting it up on a wiki page so people can vote later.
 
9:07 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes BTW, about the logo, you mean a "serious" (aka "professional") one?
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz I love Haskell syntax so far. It all just seems to fit together extremely well.
 
I've been using Vim for about 2 years now, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it.
 
Xeo
cept if/then/else, that one feels kinda weird. I wonder if a maybe-like function for Bool would seem nicer
 
morning
 
@Xeo I find it hard to understand that statement just as I find hard to understand Haskell.
 
9:11 AM
@MarkGarcia Dunno about professional, but I certainly don't mean "joke". It's something that looks official.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, I think I've seen something similar named boolean in some package
 
I love my section-for-postfix-ops hack
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes wait, that looks suspicuously Arrow-y
 
Xeo
cond p >>> f ||| g
 
9:15 AM
? is important.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, at least I won't have to put one of your avatars in it :).
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, I think that guard is missing from Arrow
 
@Xeo I love how indenting logic works
@Xeo yeah, I think I'll stop using if altogether (and that's what a lot of people do)
bool :: Bool -> a -> a -> a
bool b falseRes trueRes = if b then trueRes else falseRes
 
Xeo
I was thinking more of function invocation, currying, fixity and how all that plays together with Functor / Applicative (I love Applicative)
 
Can't have no stinkin' imperative keywords in my code.
 
9:17 AM
Meh, I don't see an issue with if, to be honest.
 
@Xeo much love.
 
I don't hate all of the syntax, just certain parts of it.
 
@Rapptz like?
 
Take a guess!
 
My cond thing is not just a fancy if: all its arguments are functions.
If it doesn't fit I use if, or when.
Or guard, I guess.
 
9:19 AM
Looking back at the transcript, you were there when I discussed it.
 
I left a while earlier.
Lemme reread
 
It was 2 months ago
 
@BartekBanachewicz falseRes first?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes dunno, that was in the utils of GLFW-b sample
 
9:21 AM
Dec 16 '13 at 22:19, by Rapptz
defining your own operators is really dumb
 
ah right.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz dat argument order.
 
and I already responded to that.
 
user1804599
Call it unless.
 
That's different.
(And unless already exists in Control.Monad :S)
 
Xeo
9:22 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why not just use Arrow + grd/? ? don't like the chosen operators?
 
Dec 16 '13 at 22:27, by Rapptz
@BartekBanachewicz A language defined operator is one that can be available to everyone and everything which means that the user of the language has a precognition of its existence through learning the language itself. A user defined operator is one where someone, outside of the language (or standard library in Haskell's case) defined that has to be learned (or possibly abused) for that one specific library and is only readable to those who use it.
 
@Xeo Those were picked to match the notation we used in class.
 
Now I'd say that Lens falls under that too.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes closely matching math notation?
 
9:23 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes hey, did that powerdown do you good?
 
unless' :: Monad m => m Bool -> m () -> m ()
unless' action falseAction = do
    b <- action
    unless b falseAction
vOv
 
user1804599
$cl1 = static function() {
    return A::$sfoo;
};
 
user1804599
Dat syntax. PHP keeps amazing me.
 
@thecoshman Yeah, why?
 
9:25 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes no need to get defensive, just being friendly
you cunt maggot :P
 
That was being defensive?
o_O
I was just curious about your curiosity.
 
no meta curiosity!
 
Xeo
> Leibniz f . h = g . h <= f = g (5)
cookies!
 
hm
I have to fix that now
    objects <- glishaGetUserState
    mapM_ glishaDraw objects

    let change x = if x < 1.0 then x + 0.01
                              else x - 2.0
        getX = position.(element 0)
        everyX = traversed . getX

    let objects' = everyX `over` change $ objects

    glishaPutUserState objects'
turns out I was really sleepy yesterday
 
Xeo
note: copying math from acrobat reader sucks
 
9:28 AM
I have to look at this hoistState thing again
I want to still be able to use Lens niceties :F
 
@Xeo Depends on the PDF.
LaTeX has a tendency to generate annoying PDFs.
But then, everyone generates horrible PDFs in general.
 
My LaTeX PDFs are beautiful!
 
Not the point.
 
I know
 
My Docx pdfs are beautiful too :)
 
Xeo
9:30 AM
hm... I just now realized why they use *** and +++ in Arrow... derp
 
@GamesBrainiac WYSIWTF
4
 
I know for a fact that the PDF I linked is generated with LaTeX, and copying from it is sorta broken.
 
@Xeo triple-star programmers!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yup! :)
 
Xeo
products and sums
 
9:31 AM
Also yeah in Haskell we have double- and triple-plus programmers too.
 
@Xeo haha
@Xeo It always made total sense to me.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes well sorry for not having a nice math education... :<
 
my friends are playing "share a mathematician" game on facebook now
 
apparently my high school teacher joined too.
@R.MartinhoFernandes something in lines of "share a theorem, everyone who likes the post gets a mathematician name and has to share one of their theorems"
 
9:34 AM
Oh. That sort of thing.
 
Xeo
hm, the choice of &&& and ||| baffle me a bit, though
 
Conjunction and disjunction.
 
Xeo
hm
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah? And if that is not a fact, then how does the fact look like? Also notice I am talking about my experience of knowing the experience other people have after being taught C with Classes (marketed as "C++"), so what I am stating is a fact.
 
Xeo
yeah, makes sehse
@R.MartinhoFernandes the first pdf you linked looks interesting
guess I'll try to read that some time
 
user1804599
9:41 AM
Yum.
 
user1804599
Crisps.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes And I also just noticed how /\ and \/ are supposed to be interpreted ... I think
/\ = 1 argument in (top), two out (bottom). \/ = 'two' in, one out
although it's not really 'two' for a sum
meh
maybe I'm overthinking this
 
user1804599
@Xeo The notation reminds me of the talk about QM and Perl. :P
 
@Xeo You're not.
@Xeo They match the shape of the diagrams that describe those combinators (they're somewhere in the first PDF I linked)
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh cool
 
9:49 AM
PSA: We need to make the wiki main page look a lot more official. That includes a logo. Rewards for the winner!
9
 
Xeo
and ha, >< is x, while -|- is +?
 
Yes.
<> is from a different notation used by another teacher.
 
Xeo
-- Exponentials -- boo, I never got the part why function application is exponentiation
 
I think the Lounge logo should be a big horse dick
 
@Xeo It makes sense.
1 is the unit type (because it has one inhabitant), 2 is Bool (because Bool has two inhabitants), and so on.
A x A is a pair with two As.
A x A = A ^ 2, meaning a pair with two As is isomorphic to a function Bool -> A. (Proof is trivial, I think)
A is trivially isomorphic to functions Unit -> A too, so A = A^1. And so on.
in (a, b) = \x -> if x then a else b
out f = (f True, f False)
That's a witness for the A x A = A^2 isomorphism.
 
9:56 AM
hm
I have to buy new strings
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes mh
 
@BartekBanachewicz Here's some for free "", "boo", "It was big. Really, really big. No, bigger than that. Even bigger. Keep going. More. No, more. Look, we're talking krakens and dreadnoughts for jewelry. It was big!"
 
user1804599
Currying in PHP is fun.
 
user1804599
f($x)($y) is a syntax error, woo!
 
why?
you cant call a returned fn directly?
 
10:02 AM
@Griwes what
 
@rightfold IIRC that hasn't been true in a while.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit My knowledge about the experience of some people I know is a fact.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz you need to store it in a variable first.
 
It's an anecdote man.
 
user1804599
10:06 AM
Maybe you can do [f($x)][0]($y), though. :P
 
user1804599
PHP’s grammar is worse than C++’.
 
@rightfold lol suck
 
Not long ago you couldn't even do f($x)[$y].
Because, who would want that?!
 
48
Q: Strange std::map behaviour

WaldThe following test program #include <map> #include <iostream> using namespace std; int main(int argc, char **argv) { map<int,int> a; a[1]=a.size(); for(map<int,int>::const_iterator it=a.begin(); it!=a.end(); ++it) cout << "first " << (*it).first << " second " << (*it).s...

I was reading this, thinking it was dumb. Until I realised a.size() is the size of the map.
 
user1804599
@Griwes even then, any grammar designed by somebody with common sense would naturally allow that.
 
10:09 AM
I guess I'm slow today :v
 
@rightfold Of course.
I was, you know, making fun of the "language".
 
user1804599
So you either have to explicitly disallow it, or you have to be an extreme moron (or bunch of ~).
 
@TonyTheLion that one has a serious beard
 
Oh, @A.H. your logo entry is not valid under the rules I have only now set forth :) You should make it square.
 
Xeo
10:12 AM
howard is cool
 
user1804599
 
cppreference updated their search
 
Xeo
it's really nice to have him on SO
 
@thecoshman ETOOFRIENDLY
 
user1804599
10:16 AM
It’s a pity that both cppreference.com and MDN are slow.
 
@Rapptz ugh fuck C++. This kind of thing makes it annoying to write code with it
 
@sehe ETOOFRND
 
@BartekBanachewicz lolzing
 
user1804599
@thecoshman what, you don’t like cunts with maggots in them?
 
@GamesBrainiac FWIW, Word is much better at that subject than TeX.
 
10:17 AM
@rightfold cppreference isn't slow for me. And maybe MSDN is the "S"peedy version of MDN?
 
user1804599
MSDN and MDN are not related.
 
user1804599
cplusplus.com is faster than cppreference.com on my machine.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought so to, call me a non-technical person, but word gets the job done for me in most cases, so why put in the extra effort to learn latex? :P
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion dat design.
 
user1804599
10:18 AM
My eyes.
 
I don't know how to write big documents in Word.
I think that makes me a noob at Word.
 
Last I checked (sometime last year), LaTeX didn't even have stable PDF/A generation, for example.
 
user1804599
X, Control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V, control+A, control+C, control+V, control+V.
 
Writing documents in word isn't hard, you just start typing
and until you have no more to say, you keep on going
and then the end
 
10:21 AM
32
Q: How to generate PDF/A and PDF/X?

DimaI have heard about PDF subsets PDF/A (for archival) and PDF/X (for printing). How to generate LaTeX documents like that? I'm also interested in answers with plain TeX and ConTeXt, and hopefully with both pdfTeX and XeTeX engines.

 
user1804599
Bullshit.
 
@rightfold ... they're websites
 
user1804599
@sehe So?
 
@Griwes Have you tried?
@rightfold anyways: :%t$, then 100@: would do
 
user1804599
Symfony is relatively nice.
 
10:22 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm, I didn't know that. But what are the benefits of latex? I'm sure there are a few.
 
@Rapptz I know. pdfx is somewhat buggy.
 
@sehe Yeah, just before he edited it :P
 
(I worked in this shit for about a year)
 
@Griwes lolsucker :)
 
I use LaTeX at work everyday!
 
10:23 AM
@sehe I think that just crashed my Vim.
 
But I've never had the need for PDF/A.
 
@GamesBrainiac LaTeX is for nerds. Word is for noobs
 
@Rapptz I worked for one of the guys that designed PDF/A.
 
@Rapptz You would if you needed to provide masters for printing services
 
@sehe You're now talking to yourself?
 
10:24 AM
@TonyTheLion I sometimes do. Conversational integrity above all else!
 
hahaha
 
@GamesBrainiac I'm probably ignorant on this (I don't use Word) but TeX allows you to split up files and include them easily. Don't know how to do that in Word.
 
@TonyTheLion And emacs is for pros :P
 
@GamesBrainiac because it's way easier to edit
 
@Rapptz Master documents (buggy as hell: stay away, last time I checked (~2005))
I'm going to take a risk here: I think Ms Word is pretty nice for keyboardists. It's hard to use correctly, but so is c++...
 
10:26 AM
@sehe Yeah, that's my stance too.
 
LaTeX you have to learn a whole load of shit before you can use it properly
Word you can just type shit and be done
 
Maybe.
 
@TonyTheLion Same for Word, really.
 
@TonyTheLion most people use word wrong
@TonyTheLion that's not using it properly
 
Any decent LaTeX IDE can give you commands and stuff to make it more user friendly.
 
10:28 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I am not "most people"
 
If I have to type a single page thingy that two people will read once (i.e. "type shit and be done") I'll just write it up in Markdown and get it rendered in one of the zillion ways I can do so.
 
I am Tony The Lion
 
Xeo
lies
 
@Rapptz I didn't know it had IDE
 
there are dozens
 
10:28 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Much nicer than any of the competition. Sadly. And they managed to obscure said keyboard interface in their Ribbon fetish.
But with ample use of style shortcuts, C-S-c and C-S-v, Alt-Space you'll get somewhere (oh, Ctrl-PgUp and Ctrl-PgDn, the latter mostly to pick up the "style" from a bullet/numbered list)
 
@TonyTheLion most of the people don't
 
I don't think I really have a need to use LaTeX, perhaps only for my CV
 
@Rapptz list please
@TonyTheLion Only for my roof :)
 
@Griwes No, it's your interpretation and opinion. Don't be a bigot.
 
eh damn it
 
10:29 AM
@Rapptz Some journals already require it, and I'm sure the number will only increase in the future. Several government agencies do too.
 
333
Q: LaTeX Editors/IDEs

hayalciWhat editors/IDEs are available for easing the process of writing TeX/LaTeX documents? Please state some useful features like code completion, spell checking, building final DVI or PDF files, etc. This question is undergoing a systematic refurbishment, see Let’s polish the Editors/IDEs questi...

 
i have to install photoshop for this silly logo contest
or steal Natalia's PC and do it in Illustrator, I guess
 
I use TeXStudio
 
Xeo
silly eh... @R.MartinhoFernandes Bartek just decided he doesn't want any rewards
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Do it on paper, noob.
 
10:31 AM
@Xeo why?
@rightfold IANAA
 
user1804599
IANaN
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not me (so far). I think if it actually does have wide spread adoption then LaTeX will support it better, since most (all?) academic papers do use it.
Just a guess though
 
What job do you do again @Rapptz?
 
> must look somewhat official
MSPaint doesn't really qualify for that job
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion hand job.
 
10:33 AM
@TonyTheLion atm I research cancer.
 
oh wow
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion nah. he'a a supervillain looking for the best way to infect people with cancer!
 
This election is tough; I'm abstaining on most of the nominees after deep thought
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit As with all mod elections, I only vote on people I recognise from the site. I almost don't read any of their nomination text.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes What exactly is the role of pnt? Looks like something to switch between A and A^1
 
10:38 AM
So only one vote from me this time.
@Xeo pnt x is just an alternative for (x!) without the section hack.
 
I was going to run for election!
I want to use Konrad's minted package.
Looks cool
 
user1804599
How can we be sure the elections are fair?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes My entry is dated march 2012! downloads.sehe.nl/stackoverflow/logo
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm trying to be diligent but it's taken forever
@rightfold Seriously?
 
user1804599
10:40 AM
First of all, the software is closed-source.
 
@rightfold How does it matter whether they are?
 
Oh for god's sake
If the software were open source you couldn't be sure it was the same software. Don't turn into rms, please.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You could if you had all the anonymous voting data!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You could, with sufficient cryptographic controls! Schneier even has a protocol for secure coin-flipping over the phone, in his book!
 
what is going on
 
user1804599
10:42 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit if it weren’t the same software, it would still not be open-source. :)
 
@MichaelCorleone WHAT are you on about?
 
2 messages moved to bin
 
@rightfold But it all hinges on trust in the end, not open-source.
 
Trolling in the bin
 
@Rapptz I think you can do that with word. I'm not too sure though.
 
10:42 AM
??
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
user1804599
103 tests in 148 ms.
 
user1804599
So slow.
 
Xeo
@MichaelCorleone We don't care.
 
user1804599
@MichaelCorleone get out.
 
10:43 AM
I thought we were going to be nice to new people?
 
user1804599
We decide for ourselves whom we vote on.
 
I vote for rightfold
 
Inb4: he's a selenium master, he can spam our rooms no end :)
 
user1804599
I.e. Clements.
 
user1804599
And Doorknob.
 
10:44 AM
@rightfold just suggesting.
 
user1804599
It wasn’t a well-elaborated suggestion, and hence completely pointless.
 
I saw what you did there..
elaborated
 
Xeo
alright, time for the injection. wish me a pain-free experience.
 
@sehe You could bin all our messages then :P
 
user1804599
@Xeo Have no pain, my friend!
 
10:46 AM
@Xeo have a pain free injection
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Allow me
 
OTOH no pain, no gain? :P
 
@Xeo think ponies.
 
@Rapptz Oh, pdfx is still buggy, I guess. It was last updated in 2008 :(
 
Pain is good..
 
10:47 AM
@xslr oh the pain
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion Wie geen pijn wil leiden, moet pijn leiden.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol, I am just amazed by this logic. I know a person, and that person tells me his opinion; and you say I don't know his opinion, just mine?
 
user1804599
We have a tile on the wall that says that people who don’t want to smoke outside, must go smoke outside.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Surprised no one has forked and fixed it
 
I think it is a shame because I find LaTeX the inherently superior platform for supporting these PDF subset thingies, especially PDF/UA.
 
10:48 AM
@Griwes You said your opinion is "fact" and his is not. That is ludicrous.
 
@Griwes Come come. Meditate about objectivity a little while once
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit My knowledge about their opinion is a fact. Them going through astonishing amounts of pain and hate for "C++" (or rather C with Classes) is a fact.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Maybe his opinion is fact in his mind???
 
(And I wholeheartedly believe PDF/A and PDF/UA are good things and PDF/A should be the default)
 
@TonyTheLion Must be
 
10:49 AM
The fact that their opinion is X and not Y (for some, irrelevant in this particular case, X and Y) is a fact.
 
Oh well hey
pdftex now supports PDF/A if I'm reading this correctly
 
user1804599
 
dat pun
 
user1804599
dat bun
 
@rightfold take #Lemons #wolfofwallstreet
thanks.:P
 
10:51 AM
5
A: Generating PDF/A-1b compliant documents using pdfx and pdfLaTeX

user26372Generating PDFA-1b compliant documents is not possible with the default pdftex. There is a minor bug in pdftex resulting in non-compliant EOL markers. There is a bug report from 2011 about this problem which successfully resolves the issue. You can find it here: http://sarovar.org/tracker/index....

(the comment) In hindsight, I should have linked to that instead.
 
@rightfold my goodness.
 
@Rapptz Oh nice.
@sehe Not square!
 
Oh /constraints
@R.MartinhoFernandes Where's the list of constraints?
 
Pinned message.
 
I'll make a logo tomorrow when I'm super bored.
I already have an idea, too lazy to open photoshop though
 
10:57 AM
lol
 

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