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14:01
@thecoshman youtube.com/… timed, ~29:35
> I'm actually quite a wrong about programming a lot
Also :lol: "I can't figure out auth integration therefore it is impossible"
proceeds to give opinion about programming
good job
He's talking about people more than programming :ssh:
> I'm a software libertarian
lol
14:18
@CatPlusPlus ergh, time stamp was not working
@CatPlusPlus lol
as opposite to the current "slutty" bra that anyone could unhook of course
hello
what a cool pool, I've missed it ;0
in Functional Programming, Jan 17 at 19:28, by Johan Larsson
how many projects did you start last year?
hrhrhr
btw. who won the Vlad bet?
14:27
what bet
Martin said that he'll buy a beer to a person who will be first to link first sign of Vlad's activity after suspension
stalkers ... & they are rewarded on this Lounge
14:29
who will verify that he will be honest and buy beer for himself???
writing C++ doesn't feel that bad
@BartoszKP I don't think that will be necessary.
who will taste the beer to confirm that he is drinking beer?
many to many relations in a database is painful to insert correctly
14:32
Not really, what are you having problems with
well inserting the right ids in the right rows
the Foreign Keys as you may call them
@TonyTheLion Painful enough that most people recommend against doing it at all. Usually prefer a many to one, then a separate one to many from there.
the problem is I have to insert all the data in to the three different tables, before I have a foreign key to insert into the parent table
you can disable constraints for a moment
if you really don't want to do what Jerry suggested
I didn't put constraints
14:36
foreign key is a constraint
its a theoretical FK at the moment
just a field at the moment
oh, ok
but it should be a FK
Never disable constraints
> rightfold created repository styx 11 minutes ago
14:37
Also M2M is really not hard
that's like 10th time already
lol @Never disable constraints
@BartekBanachewicz eh
Insert row A, insert row B, insert row to M2M table referencing A and B
If you disable constraints, you have broken data
Don't disable fucking constraints
@TonyTheLion does you data not allow it to make sense to have the two end items exist on their own without the M2M link?
14:38
if you enabled them again and all is fine then you haven't broken data ;0
@thecoshman no
@TonyTheLion Also what, what is your schema here
@TonyTheLion ... really...
@BartoszKP If that happens you don't need to disable them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, sometimes you need to disable them to insert some complicated data (and I agree that these are some specific corner cases).
14:40
@CatPlusPlus two tables, one third table that links the two.
you know, as you described
@BartoszKP You don't. There's a systematically determinable order.
Then what's the problem
one of the first two tables, references the link table. That's probably bad
:/
Yes
If it's a back link then it's kinda silly
But you can fill it in with a trigger
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your statement is dangerously general :p However I can't remember the example right now, so I'm not going to argue.
14:42
@BartoszKP It's totally intended to be general.
Don't do circular references
Those "corner cases" you are talking about are broken schemas.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Possibly. In real-life you often have a broken schema and can't do anything about it ;0
Not really
Why is "real life" always the argument for "let's not do it right"?
14:45
If your schema is broken then just fucking fix it
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's not an argument for "let's not do it right". It's an argument for "sometimes you have something already done, or that evolved to a point that it's not right, and there is no other way then to disable the fucking constraints and get your job done for the moment, of course having in mind that the situation needs to be fixed"
better still - design it better next time so it won't be broken
You didn't know that? ಠ_ಠ
@BartoszKP Which is not doing it right
Brushing technical debt aside only makes it worse
always
@TonyTheLion ಠ_ಠ no
look at javascript
@CatPlusPlus it's the only way do go, so the argument what's right is irrelevant
Nov 1 '13 at 11:55, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I don't know why writing more legacy code is an acceptable way of upgrading legacy code.
@thecoshman learn something every day
14:48
@BartoszKP it's not
@BartoszKP It's not. It's only the sloppy way to go.
@R.MartinhoFernandes apparently the cheapest way to keep crap running is apply more crap
And then your shitty workaround fucks production in half and you have to spend 10x as much time fixing it
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let me get this straight. I second all your idealistic statements, and often defend them with my bare chest! I also don't like writing more legacy code instead of fixing it. But I'm talking about a precisely defined situation here: schema is large, application is big, and you need to get things done in 4h so there is literally no way than disabling the fucking constraints. So don't tell me there is other way, because there isn't. If you've never been in such situation then lucky you :)
If you're disabling correctness checks to make your code work, it's utterly broken and needs to be fixed immediately
14:51
@BartoszKP That's not very precise.
The only precise bit about that situation is "my choice is the only one possible". Well done.
If you identify that shit's broken, you just up the goddamn estimate
@R.MartinhoFernandes saying that "there is no other way" is the part of defining the situation is precise enough to conclude that arguing about what's right is irrelevant. We can discuss whether such situations are possible - I know they are, but obviously can't remember all the details.
You don't spend 4h writing more broken code, you spend 12 making it right
And if your management gives you shit about it, remind them that's what they're fucking paying you for
@CatPlusPlus sometimes you don't have 12. You can do it in 4h, or not do it at all, because that's the deal with the customer.
And even if I grant you that you can write crap for four hours, if you don't start fixing it at 4:01, you're a terrible professional.
14:53
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree (also - that's also what said) :)
Yes I'm sure customer will be very happy with code that can blow up in subtle ways at any moment
it basically boils down to "We can spend 1 hour to get this exact problem out of the way, and spend another hour every week poking another fix in (on top of other such fixes we have to cope with) OR we can just spend a solid bit of time, a few days, perhaps more getting it fixed such that it is never such a big problem again"
@CatPlusPlus He obviously won't, but that's irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant
There are so few ~~absolutely holy~~ deadlines it's not even funny
You're assuming that customer and management are sane people - often they're not.
14:55
I'm assuming they want a working product
and typically managers chose the short sighted, get a patch out the door ASAP, and we totally promise time to fix it properly later.
@BartoszKP Perpetuating that won't help.
Where the hell do you work
@CatPlusPlus support deadlines for power plants etc. are holy usually
14:56
You respond to support deadlines with more broken code? :lol:
@CatPlusPlus no, with fixing one particular issue that freezes the whole business process for the customer and he can't continue his work. And if he won't he will pay more money than the whole product is worth or sth. Also don't suggest that I do this all the time - I don't. I had to from time to time solve problems this way.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm just answering with perpetuation to perpetuation ;0
Ell
Ell
Afternoon
I wonder if that issue got there in the first place because of a previous similar fix.
H-Ell-o!
@R.MartinhoFernandes yup, I saw this happening also :)
I rest my case.
15:02
@R.MartinhoFernandes can you like, be the manager?
I can only wish you, that you won't have the pleasure working with that amount of legacy I had to :)
@R.MartinhoFernandes there
And btw. this whole crap was fixed - it took 5 years
@BartekBanachewicz lol, you got flagged
> was fixed
apparently not
15:05
> Go was designed by highly sheltered pseudo-C programmers who one day noticed everybody else around them using Python and were like, let's make C better so that people don't have as many reasons to use Python. It's really quite a clean little language, but basically everything about it is exactly as short-sighted as you'd expect.
:lol:
P accurate
@thecoshman why not?
I worked with some legacy application in my first job. I ended up making most of it decent.
Still had one too many hacks left, usually workarounds for Excel's broken stuff :S
@CatPlusPlus Rust tho.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, me too. But it took 5 years, and I the mean time the old, and partially fixed versions had to be serviced 24/7
There's legacy code in my current codebase too. I've already refactored some parts, and am now improving testing to change a significant core part of it.
@BartoszKP ... because you have four hours to fix this issue.
@CatPlusPlus hehe
@R.MartinhoFernandes is this ontop of what you have to do, or are you sort of given carte blanche?
@thecoshman one particular issue when you have a call from the site. As I've said, in the mean time, at normal work days we worked on fixing the whole product.
@thecoshman if it's "ontop" but during working hours it's not "ontop"
15:09
@thecoshman Right now the improve testing bit is my official task. It's something I brought up and everyone agreed needed doing. I do have carte blanche to fix whatever needs fixing, though.
you can simply state you want more time to clean up the code
@R.MartinhoFernandes woo, like an inquisitor
why is that code terrible?! <burns feet of fellow programmer>
@R.MartinhoFernandes :'( nobody dictating stupid shit you have to do?
I've been running out of tasks lately and then waiting until someone does tell me what to do
@TonyTheLion Oh man, I missed those
demotivationals or whatever they were calle
@CatPlusPlus "go and watch cats on youtube"
15:11
There are things done not the way I would, but they're quite acceptable, so I don't go around changing every damn thing.
That worked so thank you. If you want to put it as an answer for your efforts and I will accept it. — jimjampez 6 mins ago
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, but you don't have to tolerate terrible terrible code. And if you want to say, have a stab at writing a replacement for a bit of code you constantly see problems coming in for, you could?
@TonyTheLion No
so you do care?
15:13
@thecoshman If you couldn't, then your work sucks :v
> The signature does not need to have const &, but the function must not modify the objects passed to it.
seriously?
I've spent most of yesterday reworking how locales work in one of our projects, because we were adding a new language and existing process for updating that shit was manual, tedious and error-prone
@thecoshman If it's something really small, yeah. Otherwise we just bring that stuff up in a meeting so we can get more input and better assess what other code it might affect.
@CatPlusPlus woah, did I somehow give you the impression I liked my job?
You have meetings?
Call your agent or whatever
yeah, my work used to suck :0
I wish temperature went back to normal, so I could start going to the office
I keep forgetting to turn Toggl on gah
Having in mind the winter last year it probably wont ;0
15:17
What I meant is that I wish February didn't exist
@CatPlusPlus "Hello, I would like a new job please, preferably in my field and in my area as I can't drive"... "Well, you could always quite your current job and try applying again?"
Quite indeed
You always try getting a driving license :P
11 months would be rather the pain though.
yeah, February is stupid anyway with its non-standard day count
15:19
@TonyTheLion seriously thinking of actually sorting that one out, but you know, comotosed reaction to life vOV
@BartoszKP ... opposed to the standard ...?
@thecoshman oh
@thecoshman you don't know the month day count pattern and about leap years? O_o
@TonyTheLion We don't have any regularly scheduled meetings, but we get together to discuss what we're doing and what needs to be done with some frequency.
in my current project I have daily meetings with myself ;0
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, but your like what, 20 people?
15:21
We're three programmers.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah
We also have meetings with the other staff sometimes, but not so often.
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh we do the same.
okey so folks from a C++/HTML offer responded
I had to ask trice, but apparently it's some sort of R&D
@TonyTheLion But your meetings sound like a chore, going from your complaints here.
15:26
@BartekBanachewicz C++/HTML?
@BartekBanachewicz ask if they have legacy code ;0 if they do, don't go there ;0
@AndyProwl yep.
@BartekBanachewicz I'm scared.
What's that?
They want some cross-shit platform for stuff I think
15:28
lol, there is a course "Jazz Appreciation" on edx :|
> C++/HTML
Oh so you'll have to use C++ and HTML. Ok it wasn't that hard to get in fact
kill me please
I thought of some weird combination of those languages
> C++, NAT, VoIP, code optimization, JavaScript, HTML and CSS
don't look at me.
15:28
> C++, NAT
sounds like suicide
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'we' have these fortnightly 'line' meetings, I choose not to go any more. over 20 people wasting an hour for one guy to tell them 10 minutes of stuff that could of just been emailed.
it's not suicide if it's researchy
> Spoons, equations and apples
anyway not my city and prolly full time so meh
15:29
Though I might make one last appearance, and ask 'why do we do this?'
@BartoszKP What's wrong with equations about spoons and apples?
@TonyTheLion nothing! I like them all. Maybe except spoons - I prefer forks
lol, didn't read the "about" part
in this case: idk ;0
Wait, today is not Friday.
@R.MartinhoFernandes o_0
unfortunately
15:31
Dammit.
jesus
how the fuck do I discourage person X to make me do an e-commerce website for him?
@Jefffrey find the worst e-commerce website possible, and tell him you did it
this guy woke up in 2014 and realized e-commerce could be profitable because he is planning not to spend a dime
and since I owe him one, I should build the website for him
15:33
@Jefffrey then it's easy charge a lot
oh
@Jefffrey "No."?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have an exam on sunday
not really related
the idea is just plain stupid, but I can't tell him that
or at least I tried, he doesn't listen
e-commerce is terrible
@thecoshman For some reason I thought it was Friday :S
15:34
@Jefffrey just tell him that is not on par with what you owe him.
> special
@thecoshman unfortunately it is
my friends' $5k PC just arrived
@Jefffrey what does he want to sell?
15:34
@Jefffrey what did he do, give you a kidney?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix "everything"
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix his ePenis probably
I have no idea why would someone spend so much on a fucking PC
@thecoshman kinda saved my life
I usually go to a pub quiz with my friends on Thursdays, but this week we changed to Monday. I guess that was it.
15:35
@Jefffrey o_0 did he actually give you a kidney?
@Jefffrey tell him about cyberman
@BartekBanachewicz i7?
"Place last in pub quiz => following day is Friday"
@thecoshman lolno, it's not a particularly interesting story
@BartekBanachewicz lol. Apple?
15:35
@BartoszKP I have an i7 but I didn't spend 15k PLN
Ell
Ell
Can I alias a template function?
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, bare parts
@Jefffrey vOv it still has to be told though :P
@BartekBanachewicz there exist i24534 then? :000
@BartekBanachewicz Then just a case of the stupids?
@R.MartinhoFernandes he bought a Titan
I'm going to have a rough night
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@BartoszKP nope. But he got a 6-core CPU too
maybe he's compensating for something
I tried to tell him to open an ebay store or something like that, but he wants a website that "is powerful and original". I tried explaining him that I'm bad at original ideas and such, but he has this plan for a big gold button with the label "BUY NOW" that is hard to remove from his head
15:37
:EEE
My new computer arrived yesterday (well, new CPU, Mobo and RAM)
I was mentally crying when I heard that
@JerryCoffin something fancy?
@BartekBanachewicz Xeon, or one of those new i7s?
@thecoshman can't, sorry. It's kinda private.
15:38
@R.MartinhoFernandes the latter. (And it's "Xeon")
@BartekBanachewicz It's faster than the 7 1/2 year-old machine it's replacing -- but only barely.
Wait, those new i7s need Xeon boards anyway.
Same thing, then.
@thecoshman But trust me, someone probably saved your life the same way at least once in your life.
15:39
I could buy more RAM
gtg, cya all!
I have a bit of spare cash
@BartekBanachewicz download it
@BartekBanachewicz It is a lot quieter though!
let's see how much my RAM costs
15:39
@Jefffrey an E-Commerce is like a thousand life
@JerryCoffin oh I need a new CPU cooler while we're at it
@Jefffrey ... now that is a riddle...
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix yes, I'm so fucked
I'll probably find a lame excuse not to do it
@BartekBanachewicz I'll probably do that sometime too, but right now even with a stock cooler it's quite a lot quieter than what it replaced.
fuck stock Intel coolers
15:40
@Jefffrey Tell him dotcoms ended around 2000
as much as I like our stuff, fuck stock Intel coolers
@Jefffrey If he's such a good friend, just tell him the truth.
@CatPlusPlus "remove the 'the'" in the name right (thefacebook)
I want to hit mine with a hard heavy thing multiple times
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I have no idea what that means
15:42
@R.MartinhoFernandes I told him plainly: "Your idea is nothing original. It has been done before. Many failed. And you are going to fail, probably. I don't like it." and his answer was: "Wait, but... your university expertise is programmer right? You could do the site for me, right?".
@BartekBanachewicz I try to keep one Intel and one AMD machine around, and my laptop already has an i7, so this one's an AMD.
@BartoszKP lol
@Jefffrey At this point, there's nothing more you can do.
@EtiennedeMartel Kill him?
Xeo
Xeo
kill him with love
15:43
@Jefffrey just answer that your expertise is building killer robots
Just walk away, but keep cheap vodka on hand for when he realizes how deep in shit he is.
That's clever
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ back to fucking shity 'bug fixing' on shitty old project. And by 'bug fixing' I mean doing the worst hack possible to get something out the door that looks like it has covered the problem.
(also known as "Emergency Vodka")
Xeo
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel 'cheap' so the vodka is not wasted when you smack the bottle over his head?
15:44
"Man, I'm so deep in shit" "Here, have a shot of vodka. You don't need to go home anyway"
fuck
fucking shit
Maybe I should do reverse psychology. Look like I'm so into his idea that I want 90% of the incomes of something.
I knew it would happen
Yay! First pass, no bugs, no syntax errors. Okay, so it's not the fastest code, and it's not the shortest. But fuck it.
@Jefffrey Cue him accepting and you getting 90% of nothing.
15:45
What made me buy CL7 RAM really
@R.MartinhoFernandes + 4 months playing with paypal APIs
Xeo
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ... chrono where?
god damn it
Well, fuck. We will see in three months (after the period I've told him I'm "too busy").
15:46
how the fuck it can cost nearly twice what I paid
how the hell does pricing work in this industry
it's a fucking joke
@LightnessRacesinOrbit DRY O.O
@BartekBanachewicz Based somewhat on rarity/difficulty to obtain, but primarily on perceived value.
I paid 310,- PLN with taxes for my RAM
now, like 7 months later, it's listed for 477,-
@JerryCoffin Just like any industry, then.
gonna be afk for an hour or two, don't panic
15:48
@Jefffrey You told him you were going to think about it?
That's a big mistake.
okey so what will happen if I mix RAM with different CL values?
He heard "Yes, I'll totally do it"
You meant "No, I won't do it"
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz CL is timing, right?
Xeo
Xeo
ITT Jefffrey is fucked
Ell
Ell
15:49
iirc nothing, but double check
3 month is enough to get a passport and a new job in a different country
Xeo
Xeo
lol
Ell
Ell
You'll get the lowest common denomenator
Xeo
Xeo
'shit, my friend has a crappy business idea!' - 'commence country flight!'
@Ell that's still paying more... for slower ram
for fucks sake
I can get a whole 16GB set for 733 600 PLN
from the worse series tho
15:52
It's better to pay more for slower ram, than paying twice as much for half the ram... (aka buying sdram when ddr2 came out)
@EtiennedeMartel To an extent, but not entirely. There's a noticeable difference in what's done to build, say, a $100,000 car vs. a $30,000 car. They look and act different and have different features. By contrast, two computer parts that came from the same wafer, were manufactured as close to identical as anybody knows how, and appear identical in all respect until you test them may still carry a 2:1 or 3:1 price differential.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix thing is I can either kick out what I have now (which is pretty high end) and buy more slower stuff, or just bump my capacity to 16GB
but since I won't be able to sell those 2 modules anyway it really doesn't make sense
I'll try a different shop
Why do you need so much ram?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I'm thoroughly convinced that in the long run more RAM makes more difference than faster RAM.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix VMs
15:56
@JerryCoffin agreed
I've never noticed RAM speed
Ell
Ell
ram speed is irrelevant to me
@Ell even that can be caused by hardrive speed
@CatPlusPlus well faster RAM is faster dunno what's to notice here
@BartekBanachewicz You should have maxed it out from the start :P
15:57
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't think I'd need so much back then
OTOH this brings us to the point
@JerryCoffin but that's the thing, they are tested, and one chip can be proven 'better' than another. The tolerances are so tight, shit breaks.
@Ell Raw speed isn't. Speed must be well broiled before it becomes relevant. Some people prefer to boil it, but they're obviously cretins whose opinions should be ignored.
Anyway, don't mix it.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix always more ram!
@R.MartinhoFernandes if I buy another 2x4 set I'll have all slots taken and only 16GB
now, if I will need 32GB before trashing this PC is questionable
probably not.
15:58
Does your board support 32?
@BartekBanachewicz The difference
Oct 5 '12 at 1:13, by R. Martinho Fernandes
There's never enough RAM!
@CatPlusPlus do you notice a difference in, say, 0.3Ghz clock change?
15:59
same thing applies.
if you timed it, it would show speedups
That's what I said I don't know what are you even trying to tell me
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz Right, what he's saying is the difference in ram speeds doesn't affect his experience
@BartekBanachewicz At least in theory my new one supports 64. Given how long I hang on to motherboards, I'll probably still be using it when 16 Gig sticks are available.

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