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18:00
Always Belgium
So far the conclusions from our discussions are: 1) no more vlad 2) no more instabinning 3) ?????? 4) spend more time in the Lounge
Never not Belgium
@CatPlusPlus no oneboxes though
@TonyTheLion aww did we say no more Vlad?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit the tag was removed :'(
18:00
@Jefffrey As with many things, the problem is that chat kinda sucks, but not quite badly enough for people to stay motivated enough for long enough to finish an alternative.
@CatPlusPlus forever this
@CatPlusPlus This is the best chat system I've ever used. Good fucking luck
@Jefffrey That's a really trivial, really not important feature
@TonyTheLion good ;)
right, bye
@CatPlusPlus No, they won't, and you know it.
18:01
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Gone, but not forgotten. The unknown soldier of the Lounge.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah probably
@CatPlusPlus I consider it pretty important, given that we use that a lot
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Wait I thought he meant "getting a life" but now I'm wondering
Many IM programs can do that
It's not very special
what about the formatting? does XMPP support formatting without stupid BBcode or HTML tags?
18:02
@CatPlusPlus IMO, that's the sort of thing that should be user configurable. One of the biggest problems right now is that it attempts a one size fits all solution.
It's also not very important (it supports HTML on the wire, your IM client can do whatever on its side)
@JerryCoffin That too
right
Some oneboxes are really obnoxious
Peeps, no time for real discussion here. My stance; questions can be annoying, but people are easily ignored. ALWAYS. It gets harder with binning and berating. I suggest only moving message to the bin if they're physically distracting. Consider using the Bulk Trash plugin we got from the C# room (?). And don't remove bin audit message. Because all those actions tend to be (very) counterproductive.
Also this chat has no emoticons so it loses instantly in any comparison
Back to the kids now
hmm emoticons
I don't think I miss them
😋
@doug65536 is that a joke about oneboxes?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit thanks for the bounty. That's now 1200 meta-rep invested in that question.
18:04
@sehe dude, pay attention to your kids, don't turn your back on them!
@Jefffrey no, a smartass unicode :P character scroll down to the unicode part
@R.MartinhoFernandes @R.MartinhoFernandes see above, hopefully it will get some attention and a close as dupe vOv
@thecoshman It's closed as duplicate but nobody will answer the duplicate anyway
You clearly have no idea how meta works wrt chat issues
(It doesn't)
@CatPlusPlus, what about the reply to message thinghy?
18:05
Wow, Anna was fast.
@CatPlusPlus ¬_¬ I know
and the pinging
I love the ping sounds every once in a while
@R.MartinhoFernandes That means they are paying attention, but ignoring it on purpose!
it keeps me company
@Jefffrey Standard feature of any IM client
18:06
@Jefffrey FWIW all of those are client, not protocol, features.
As long as it doesn't start "shaking" my window
Replies not so much, but I'd still be willing to sacrifice it to go away
user1804599
Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64:
  "_testzmstyxczm0zi1zi0zi0_StyxziLex_comment1_closure", referenced from:
      _testzmstyxczm0zi1zi0zi0_StyxziLexTest_tests8_info in libtest-styxc.a(LexTest.o)
      _testzmstyxczm0zi1zi0zi0_StyxziLexTest_tests8_srt in libtest-styxc.a(LexTest.o)
user1804599
Fuck you Haskell.
In fact, there's not a single killer feature of this crappy chat that would keep me here if people were willing to relocate
18:07
@R.MartinhoFernandes are you able to undo your close as dupe?
Even to something as basic as IRC
Not after it's final anyway.
@CatPlusPlus the one thing nice here is that history never get deleted as far as I know
That also can be done with any other IM
18:08
@Jefffrey ah, I'm guessing you saw a box on your screen? it should have been a smiley. Unicode has smilies
@R.MartinhoFernandes your question has no accepted answer, thus is not a suitable dupe to close as and you have a feature request, not a bug, and I want to get attention, and you already know about the problem :P
If they just made the protocol not some shitty custom thing, or at least documented it
@doug65536 lol, did you just get my joke on the onebox joke? :P
Skype is pretty bad for that
@thecoshman Nobody cares
They are perfectly aware of the issues
18:10
@CatPlusPlus oh sure, so why bother doing anything. FUCK OFF THEN
@CatPlusPlus Can't we create like a simple nice UI on top of IRC
@CatPlusPlus yeah some kind of API to "plug" a custom client... or just use an existing protocol
Yes, there's no point bothering, when all efforts in that direction have not paid off, ever
@TonyTheLion We can
18:10
@thecoshman Oh come on. You know just as I do that it's a dupe.
There's no point in playing around with semantics.
But people won't move
@R.MartinhoFernandes does that duplicate question have an accepted answer?
And I don't give a fuck about chat room without people
we need to invoke std::actually_move
@Jefffrey yes, my brain asynchronously figured out wtf you were talking about and it just posted it to my foreground process
18:11
lol
@CatPlusPlus reply to message is really nice and I miss it in other chats.
Also why I have absolutely zero motivation to work on the new chat software
> I have absolutely zero motivation
this ^
@thecoshman Do you not close bugs as duplicates even though they are not fixed?
@JohanLarsson It's nice, but it doesn't outweigh the bad and annoying shit
18:12
@R.MartinhoFernandes ¬_¬ shh you!
irc is nice though
And in the end, it's just giving every message an ID and then including a special : at the start
You could modify IRC to support that in a weekend
@thecoshman Really, I appreciate the effort, but I can't honestly stand behind it.
That including modifying a client to support it
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix irc is pretty cool for a 1970-era protocol :p
18:13
Wait, so what are the policy conclusions?
@jalf so is smtp
Even editing can be done in this way
SMTP is godawful
@R.MartinhoFernandes doesn't mean you have to stand in the way :P
Email is godawful
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix smtp? yes, I rest my case.
18:13
I wish email was dead
You don't appreciate how shitty email is until you run an SMTP server
smtp servers are shit yes but the protocol is so simple
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix simple because it's borked
User problems with spam are nothing
It's too simple
I can define simple protocols too, if they don't have to actually do the job they're designed for
@CatPlusPlus email as a concept, amazing, my message right to me; email in practice, horrible servers and spam all over the fucking place
The concept is really nothing new or unique
Mails were around forever
see also: chat protocols which has no provision for handling text encoding :p
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's really simple, but the problem is that if you want good support you have to read all rfcs and not just this one. For example how to support SSL/TLS... Supporting sending files etc..
Email protocols which aren't at all suited for sending emails to people, and chat protocols unsuited for sending text between people. You have excellent taste in network protocols...
18:16
I don't know if "can summarise it easily if you have a lot of other knowledge already" counts as "simple".
user1804599
Cool, multiline comments work.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can write a smtp server in less than 200 lines of code
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix what does that prove?
Also, "there's a simple useless subset inside" doesn't really count as "simple".
18:17
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix So what?
You just said that unless you add in a million other bits and pieces, it's useless
You can write an echo server in less than 20 lines of code
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix will your 200 lines of code support TLS?
@CatPlusPlus omg, that makes it the best protocol ever!
Clearly echo servers are better at everything
Dude. You suck.
[,.]
Four characters.
Four.
20 lines.
Pffft.
18:18
That's not a server
NOT A SERVER ROBOT
@CatPlusPlus Yes, it is! Put stdin in one socket and stdout in the other!
that's just delegating the serving to external code.
@jalf possibly with the right libraries, it will just restart the session with encryption after an handshake.
checks if didn't mix comma and dot with input and output again
18:20
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Sure, and given the right libraries, I can implement any server in one line of code
SMTP uses STARTTLS now
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix You can emulate a PC in less than 4K of code. What of it?
Your parser needs to be aware of that
I think we all agree Lounge<Chat> should be written in Ruby
18:20
Point is, no one gives a fuck how easy a protocol is to implement, unless the protocol is actually worth using.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix So you can implement it in 200 lines of code if you ignore all the code you need except for 200 lines.
Totally simple.
What we need is ITU writing a huge OSI-based email standard, so we can then take it, remove every second paragraph, and get a maybe semi-decent replacement for SMTP/IMAP/POP3
Ell
Ell
darkmail :P
@Ell dorkmeal?
18:23
That the Lavabit thing?
Lavabit was just encrypting shit, they didn't have a custom protocol afair
@CatPlusPlus And doing it badly, iirc
No, they were doing too good, and got shutdown
@CatPlusPlus We'd only want to keep something like one word from every second paragraph. Consider: there are currently no fewer than 10 separate specifications defining ASN.1.
@JerryCoffin Oh, right, ASN.1
I'm on the fence buuuuut it still might be better than SMTP is
18:25
@CatPlusPlus ...and you know of ITU did email, everything would have to be encoded in ASN.1 (and addresses would be in X.509, or something similar).
@R.MartinhoFernandes the number of line doesn't matter. The protocol is almost like a discussion between two people... hello? who are you? whom is that message for? what's the subject? and data. There are other cases but that's a minimal smtp session. It's usually a state machine so you just have to code the states for each inputs.
@CatPlusPlus but the lavabit guy is working with some other people on a new encryption-friendly email protocol (darkmail) iirc
@JerryCoffin Addresses would be OIDs
@DeadMG afaik, doing it as well as is possible with current email protocols
@jalf Yeah I just saw that Kickstarter
18:26
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix "WE CAN WRITE A SERVER IN 200 LINES, THAT IS SO COOL. Oh, but the number of lines doesn't actually matter"
But seriously fuck OIDs
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix So what? an echo server is simple too. How does that matter?
How many protocols do you know that are not usually just a state machine?
Is there a protocol out there based on Perl syntactic principles or something?
IMAP?
I haven't actually looked at IMAP
But I've heard fun stories
18:28
@R.MartinhoFernandes you should know better than to ask questions where you don't want to know the answer :p
@CatPlusPlus It's more complex, but IMAP is also basically a state machine.
Yeah probably
@jalf the smtp protocol was designed to be able to send/receive indirectly messages to other trusted computers.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, now at least I have some forewarning about what kind of nightmares I'm going to have for the next week or so!
You know what, it could be worse
Email could be based on Mork
18:29
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Yes? That's super useful for the internet, where "trusted computers" do not exist.
@R.MartinhoFernandes But to answer your question: I believe that might qualify as a fair description of SMB.
You can trust the computer
The computer is your friend
Leachate is any liquid that in passing through matter, extracts solutes, suspended solids or any other component of the material through which it has passed. Leachate is a widely used term in the environmental sciences where it has the specific meaning of a liquid that has dissolved or entrained environmentally harmful substances which may then enter the environment. It is most commonly used in the context of land-filling of putrescible or industrial waste. In the narrow environmental context leachate is therefore any liquid material that drains from land or stockpiled material and co...
@CatPlusPlus So we'll run a Paranoia session on roll20, then? ;)
Yes that's the reference
18:30
Looks like I missed the policy discussion.
It's okay, nobody cares about your opinion anyway!
jk love you
Is there a summary somewhere?
Or do I need to scan the whole transcript?
Some things happened
@jalf you're wrong here, you can setup your server to receive only messages from a particular ip for example. It can be your company infrastructure for example and make all communication only over ssl.
binning, bad. lurking, good
@R.MartinhoFernandes NOOOOOOOOOOOO
1 message moved to bin
See, I just became a victim of that policy.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix So what?
Seriously
How is that relevant to anything
idgi
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix How can I be wrong when I am responding to exactly what you said?
php question bad! me smash php question
18:32
Only Vlad can ask questions now
3 mins ago, by Loïc Faure-Lacroix
@jalf the smtp protocol was designed to be able to send/receive indirectly messages to other trusted computers.
And then someone figured that hey, we can chain SMTP servers, but hey that means your message might get lost at any fucking point and you won't even know it
SMTP is really fun
yeah that's like real post
Also with everyone being RBL-trigger happy, you might lose ability to send out messages even if you didn't do anything wrong!
18:34
the worse is dns poisoning and having a smtp server in the middle to be honest
Paranoia doesn't even begin to describe the email network
Hey, why don't you remind me of how smoothly SMTP handles Unicode text
base64 encode it! Oh wait, that makes your messages likely to be flagged as spam
Welp
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Awesome protocol! Totally fit for the purpose of sending text around
Just like IRC
18:35
But you'll get a badge
"YOU TRIED. CONGRATULATIONS"
I can totally see how they're the best designed protocols ever and we should use them forever
SMTP = Simple Transfer Message Protocol and you expect it to support unicode when unicode didn't exist when it got created?
SSL didn't exist when it got created either
and sendmail is easy to configure. the config files are really easy to read
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix No, but for a protocol used in 2014, that is the absolute barest minimum I expect, yes
I don't care that they didn't have it in 1970
18:36
If you're using sendmail then I have some bad news for you
But I think it supports my argument pretty well that today, the protocol is a monumental piece of shit
I mean it's pretty awesome that the smtp protocol is still used in 2014 and nobody came up with something better
@R.MartinhoFernandes How are new people supposed to get into playing Paranoia if they're not allowed to know the rules?
don't worry, I don't use it. it's a human rights violation
Ohoho did I mention paranoia? Just look at how complicated mail daemons are
18:37
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Oh yes, if you define "awesome" as "worst thing ever"
@CatPlusPlus How much worse does news get than "You're using sendmail"?
So let me summarize
But hey you can write it under a 200 lines I guess
+/- 20000
Your entire defense of the SMTP protocol can be summarized as "isn't it cool that we're still using it despite it being a piece of shit"?
And that's just for the sandbox to run the actual smtpd in
@JerryCoffin You're using sendmail
18:37
I think we might have to accept that your definition of "awesome" is the exact opposite of mine
@jalf That's entire software industry
Everything's terrible
@CatPlusPlus Thanks. You just made my day.
@CatPlusPlus "awesome", you mean
fwiw everyone on IRC uses UTF-8 these days so the encoding isn't really that much of a problem
@CatPlusPlus not everyone
but yeah, true, in practice that sort of works out
18:40
Dinosaurs on IRCnet be damned
but still a pretty miserable failing of the protocol that it doesn't actually take encoding into account
@jalf If only they'd used ASN.1, this wouldn't have been a problem at all...
And if someone doesn't, you can just ban them!
:)
utf or bust
18:43
@CatPlusPlus works for me :p
@CatPlusPlus I prefer bust--especially nice firm bust.
but what sucks about smtp is how they just hacked up lot of things on the basic protocol to support new features... they should have replaced the protocol as soon as they tried sending files.
man
Dishonored was fun but way too easy.
@DeadMG try super meat boy
@DeadMG XCOM!
18:47
ah I'd have to download like infinity jiggerbytes before I can play XCOM
ah :(
It's not "way too easy" though :D
well
it's been a while since I had a real challenge.
In fact it's not easy at all
XCOM classic/ironman <3
Also if you want a smaller game that's p challenging, try La-Mulana
18:48
or impossible/ironman, if you're suicidal
SS2's Impossible mode was aptly named- as in, the developers didn't think that it was physically possible to finish the game on that mode.
SystemShock2?
@DeadMG iirc, Firaxis said the same with XCOM. I remember them saying that for a while it looked like one of the devs was going to beat it on impossible/ironman mode. Then he didn't :D
Many games have crappy difficulty balancing
BioshockInfinite in mode 1999 is hard though
18:49
@jalf Well, so far, I have always played every new single-player game on the hardest possible difficulty setting first time around.
Braid is a nice puzzle game if you're into that
I couldn't get into Braid at all
I own but have never played Braid
same with Amnesia: Dark Descent.
@jalf Me neither
18:53
and super meat boy
I don't like pure puzzle things
Super meat boy is really cool if you have a controller
Anyway, I haven't had time for other games since XCOM expansion came out
I got to around hell with keyboard
That state of affairs will probably continue for another month or two
18:53
It's doable
SMB devs are terrible at everything but it's doable
13 jiggerbytes
Jägerbyte
Hotline Miami can be also a good challenge if you want A++ everywhere
That's actually a cool name
Should I add it to the project name list?
@Jefffrey Ergh, reminds me of Jägermeister.
18:59
Yeah, that was the intent :)

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