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17:00
@CatPlusPlus You're dealing with puny humans, you have to just be able to lower your expectations at times
also not everyone has the same experience/knowledge that you do
@CatPlusPlus Yes, I'm just guessing the intent of this term. I agree with you in general.
and you do know a lot when it comes to programming
See, you have to guess what the term means
How is that "well-defined"
@R.MartinhoFernandes for me it always meant that a standard execution environment for this language provides an interpreter (leaving aside all the fair arguments Cat gave against this understanding)
You could maybe use it as meaning "this language is typically used as standalone/embedded", but it makes no sense for most languages either
17:03
@ScottW not only: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language just made it simpler parsing it through my simple brain ; )
Also people try to make distinction between interpreted/compiled and ignore that majority of languages these days is compiled and their bytecode is what's executed (and then we get into equivalency of VMs and CPUs et cetera)
So yeah, this is stupid, useless term that carries no useful and mostly incorrect information
Don't use it
argh
Please don't cite Wikipedia
17:04
@CatPlusPlus Yeah I won't... unless I'd be in a mood to have some fun ; 0
I think YouTube finally stopped letting me visit without using my Real Name Google account
Their CS articles are mostly meh
And sometimes just terrible
(And see you made me explain this shit again you fucking bastard)
@DeadMG I FUCKING HATE THAT!
@DeadMG Really?
@CatPlusPlus lol, I gave you a link to IEEE and you didn't like it. now Wikipedia is also wrong? :P
17:04
Works for me.
Stop complaining about me wanting to use an alias!
well, I had to log out completely, which it seems to have accepted for now.
but it didn't have a "Fuck off and let me use my old account" button this time.
@BartoszKP "Scripting languages are also sometimes referred to as very high-level programming languages, as they operate at a high level of abstraction."
@DeadMG seriously? oh gawd
@CatPlusPlus don't worry, next time I'll help you ; D
I mean just read this
it tried to get me to merge my real name with 'thecoshman' for use on YT... I think it ended up setting up some sort of second account for me :S
@Pawnguy7 i mean what will you really want to do with that knowledge
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Just rename yourself to "Dead MG"
naw.
17:07
I just went through and created G+ account, but YT lets you use any name on there you want
@CatPlusPlus I gave the link just to answer @ScottW's message. I wanted to refer only to the first sentence : )
well I'm just not gonna log in to YT anymore.
I don't know why I ever did have a YT account.
oh god that bounce top bar is annoying
History and subscriptions?
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG Subscriptions
17:08
@DeadMG And comments and likes?
scroll down, it's there, scroll up it runs away!
No, no comments
Fuck YT comments
@Xeo Never found them to be of any use at all.
I don't see what's so bad with using G+ Acc on YT
17:08
I don't subscribe to anyone on YT.
@digvijay91 I think you've misclicked : D
I have comments hidden anyway
@BartekBanachewicz Firstly, G+ sucks, and secondly, my real fuckin' name?
If Google didn't try to put your name on fucking everything
And why exactly does G+ suck?
17:09
@digvijay91 Are of even lower value.
@BartekBanachewicz Woopes
@BartekBanachewicz Well, it's like Facebook, so it's worthless crap, except there's nobody of any interest on it in addition.
@DeadMG Yes, but sometimes you would like to do either
I don't use G+, and it keeps pestering me with it
their entire business model is doing nothing but tracking me to advertise to me.
Xeo
Xeo
17:09
@digvijay91 Can you please use the reply feature?
@digvijay91 No, I don't.
@BartekBanachewicz for OpenGL, or just a question to ask in general before learning something?
@BartekBanachewicz that is not the problem. it's the fact it tries to merge my personal G+ with my YT alias
not enough to have an account, anyway.
One day I'll boot up my own mail infrastructure and get rid of my Google account
17:10
@Xeo like this?
@pawnguy7 GL
Xeo
Xeo
@Cat, we need your pic
well
I might start looking for a new mail provider.
@CatPlusPlus spend your 20 hours extra on this ; 0
17:10
I'm less impressed with Google as time goes on.
@DeadMG I see... so something is good, not because it is actually good, but because people use it. Ergo, Wide is worse than Java
Their mail service is still the best unfortunately
@BartekBanachewicz Ah. Well, two things. First, if I don't know it, I am pretty much stuck to whatever API there may be. Second, many languages have just GL bindings, not something over it.
@DeadMG I was never impressed, but I was thankful of their services
@thecoshman What? That's not what I said at all.
17:11
@deadmg i find facebook a useful tool for keeping up to date with companies, bands and people i want to keep up to date with
@ScottW I dont know how :(
user1804599
I’m so fucking wet.
@BartekBanachewicz It doesn't. It's actually pretty clever. How social media should be. But nobody uses it.
I wish mail was replaced by something less horrible by now
@BartekBanachewicz If any of them want to message me, they can send me an e-mail.
or a text or a phone call or a letter.
17:11
@ScottW No, laptop
@CatPlusPlus s/mail/spam filtering/
you don't keep up to date with companies on Facebook, they advertise to you on Facebook.
@thecoshman That's part of it
@deadmg you didn't understand. I treat it like a newspaper
17:12
The infrastructure itself is p good too
@BartekBanachewicz Where all the sources are hideously biased and nobody's accountable for anything they say?
@CatPlusPlus what else is so special about it? uptime I guess
@ScottW Aah, ok cool
@BartoszKP Seen it.
And if, say, nvidia ADVERTISES that it has a new gpu architecture it means intersting read for me.
17:12
@thecoshman Reliability vOv
don't get me wrong
@ScottW Any way which involves only the keyboard?
most of the mass media is scum.
but there are some parts that aren't scum
and Facebook is just scum but also with people who don't know shit adding their own nonsense so the chaos.
@BartekBanachewicz That's called RSS
user1804599
Nobody in the entire world uses RSS.
17:13
@ScottW So you click and reply everytime ? :O
So ok facebook is my RSS reader
Xeo
Xeo
@digvijay91 Yes
Or replacement of such
@CatPlusPlus yeah, other people provide pretty good uptime. I could offer pretty good uptime for my self too. but not the same, and effort
Xeo
Xeo
The mild annoyance of having to click is nothing compared to not being able to follow discussions
17:14
I find it ok for that purpose.
@Xeo Ok, will do
I also like the ability to share shit with friends easily
@Xeo Haha, k
@rightfold tell me, how do you avoid having to do regular trips around all the sites you like to see updates?
@thecoshman Maintaining several mail servers with proper redundancy etc. is a lot of effort
17:14
Like completely dumb hilarious gifs that I can just share to our gaming group
Even one mail server is a lot of effort
@BartekBanachewicz The endless sharing of shit is one of the worst things about Facebook.
user1804599
@thecoshman I don’t because I don’t mind. vOv
But if you want availability, then you can't be tied to one network
But seriously, fucking email, why is this shit still operating
@deadmg why, again? I want to show somebody something, i share it.
17:15
Invent something better already, IETF
What's wrong in that?
@BartekBanachewicz Email them a link. You don't need to share it on Facebook for the whole world to see.
hello
I don't share it for the whole world, silly
@rightfold oh right, so you don't value your time. That's ok, I don't value your time either.
17:16
@DeadMG Unles that is exactly what you want
@digvijay91 Right, but I don't want to see other people's random shit.
I share it for a specific group of people (yes mailing lists are hard)
one of the great reasons why I don't have a Facebook.
@DeadMG Yes. If it gets too much, I unsuscribe from their feed
17:17
@CatPlusPlus lol
Xeo
Xeo
> Unfortunately, this SME-music-content is not available in Germany because GEMA has not granted the respective music publishing rights.
hahahaha
rotfl
@DeadMG for example, when new LoL patch comes out, somebody can share a direct link and then we can easily discuss the changes
> Why did you censor such a small inoffensive word as 'faggot' but kept the swastika out in the open?
it's by far superior to "threading" you get in emails.
user1804599
17:18
Congrats, YouTube team.
@R.MartinhoFernandes [kickstarter.com/projects/cthulhuproject/… might like)
just went to my YT profile, and clicked some comment links - they're not working ;0
:psyduck:
fuck it, can't be arsed to fix that
user1804599
You just made the UI worse, the comments even worse and you made your page lag tremendously in your own company’s fucking web browser.
user1804599
17:19
What a great website.
@thecoshman You're terrible
@CatPlusPlus vOv
user1804599
Ugh.
@BartekBanachewicz If a new LoL patch comes out, you'll find out as soon as you load the game, and you can discuss the changes with any basic forum or IM software.
@thecoshman wtf is "vOv" - goatse ?
user1804599
17:20
King and queen are in Russia talking to Putin.
user1804599
What a waste of money.
0
Q: Solving the Towers of Hanoi at compile-time

FredOverflowI am trying to solve the Towers of Hanoi at compile-time, but I have discovered a problem: template<int src, int dst> struct move_disc { // member access will print src and dst }; template<int n, int src, int tmp, int dst> struct hanoi { hanoi<n-1, src, dst, tmp> before; typename mo...

user1804599
Bunch of morons.
@FredOverflow You already asked that.
@rightfold not all Russians are moronic
17:21
@DeadMG it's not that simple. Sometimes patch changes are tentative (i.e. you can read notes before they go live) and I would need an RSS reader. Also we would need a forum then, which facebook effectively replaces.
@rightfold Did you just downvote me? ;)
or maybe that was 8-queens.
@DeadMG I did? When?
@rightfold I presume you are from England?
user1804599
@thecoshman I was talking about the people responsible for the visiting of the king and queen to Russia.
17:21
24
Q: Solve the eight queens problem at compile-time

R. Martinho FernandesCan you solve the eight queens puzzle at compile-time? Pick any suitable output format. I'm particularly interested in a C++ template metaprogramming solution, but you can use languages that have similar constructs, like, for example, Haskell's type system. Ideally your metaprogram would outpu...

That was the robot, not me.
@rightfold ¬_¬ I know
@DeadMG Everyone would have to register on the separate forum. They would also either have updates set or check it manually (facebook updates you automatically)
user1804599
@digvijay91 Yes. My country has a king so I’m from England.
3
user1804599
+1.
17:22
@BartekBanachewicz Except that I sign up to each forum with a different password, the forums don't track my every move to try and sell advertisements to me, and the forum name I use is an alias instead of my real name.
@rightfold Dutch then
and I always have the option of signing up to any forum under a completely separate alias.
@rightfold right
@rightfold Seems like the English are the only ones that can make a profit on their monarchs.
@DeadMG yeah but we're all friends in the group we're talking about. We know each other IRL, and we share stuff. If I am @-pinging someone, I'm actually pinging the person.
There's no point in nicks and avatars here.
17:24
@FredOverflow how come it moves two discs from first pole, when initially there is only one on it?
@BartekBanachewicz So what you're really saying is, "It's for when you have IRL friends but don't actually want to be friends with them".
@BartoszKP Initially, there are three on it. All of the discs start out on the first pole. In this case, three.
@DeadMG Um no. First, I am not trying to convince you to use it. I'm just trying to show you real-life example where it works rather well. And back to the topic, no, we're friends. But since we live a bit far from eachother, we want to keep in touch WRT gaming stuff we do together.
@FredOverflow hanoi<3, 1, 2, 3> 3 means 3 total discs right? so what do 1, 2, 3 mean?
@BartoszKP From pole 1 to pole 3, using pole 2 as temporary storage.
17:26
@FredOverflow all right
Fuck, the orange book says the source code for the shadow mapping example is on 3dshaders.org, but the site no longer exists T_T
@Borgleader shadow mapping is explained well on that weird site which name I forgot
I think I bought the orange book once, but I never had the motivation to take a closer look :)
@BartekBanachewicz nehe?
user1804599
@FredOverflow sehe!
17:31
@FredOverflow nope.
user1804599
SeleniumHelium
that wiki-style thing with a skull in logo
@rightfold England has a king ?!
@A.H. Don't ask
user1804599
Do I know. vOv
17:32
@A.H. -_-
user1804599
> #include <cstdlib.h>
user1804599
fail
Btw, I was wondering. How does stack * sites earn revenue? (to maintain servers,etc.)
@digvijay91 users pay for chat. you'll receive your invoice soon
@BartoszKP :P
17:39
@A.H. ¬_¬ no
@FredOverflow I have no idea how that works
@Pawnguy7 just as runtime version would, but this one works at compiletime
Not really sure how I would do it at runtime either :\
@Pawnguy7 Have you never solved the Towers of Hanoi with recursion?
@FredOverflow s/with recursion/in Prolog/
17:47
Why would anyone want to buy user's data here? meta.stackoverflow.com/a/79439
user1804599
Should I put [[noreturn]] before or after inline?
user1804599
I.e. [[noreturn]] inline void exec() or inline [[noreturn]] void exec()?
whut
> I am a newbie in Linked List
rut roh
@LightnessRacesinOrbit whaaat
@FredOverflow nope
17:52
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol, I'm a newbie in newbieness
@Pawnguy7 Time to get your feet wet, then!
@FredOverflow conceptually it's fine. must be some c++/gcc detail
Yet people say I should be DRY :D
@Pawnguy7 well you can't KISS being only DRY ;0
@FredOverflow ideone.com/WVEntf this gives only 5 steps, perhaps it will lead you to something
18:12
You guys on 'Tower of Hanoi' now? I suppose it's one step up from counting newlines in a file:)
@MartinJames :D
isn't Towers NP-Complete.
@BartoszKP I fear that the next step for Lounge conversation will be something like 'implementing a linked list'.
@DeadMG It never got an intuitive grasp on what that means exactly.
@MartinJames Linked lists aren't fun in C++.
@DeadMG it is NP-hard
18:15
your mum's NP-hard
@FredOverflow What that realistically means is, "All known solutions exponential time and don't ever hope for better".
@FredOverflow what are they fun in?
@Pawnguy7 Just pick any functional language.
@DeadMG that's NP-hard, NP-complete is also that it's transformable in polynomial time to every other NP-complete problem
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Most women are.
18:17
@Pawnguy7 Dunno. They certainly aren't fun on SO. The 'my linked list does not work and I have done no debugging' questions are up to about 3 a day.
@MartinJames we were even into "scripting languages" today : D
@LightnessRacesinOrbit strange, she told me exactly the same thing about you ;0
@BartoszKP :D
@MartinJames yeah it's getting a bit much now
@FredOverflow wow.
@BartoszKP Yeah, but that's not very useful since they're all exponential time.
18:23
@DeadMG yeah, just being a fuck that cavils to every detail ; )
I'm not even sure if it's NP-hard
ISTR that it's NP-Something.
Hello.
The only thing problematic about Towers is that the output grows exponential in relation to the input
Towers of Hanoi?
18:25
difficult to decide an exponential output in non-exponential time.
So, remember Rob Ford, that Toronto mayor who smoked crack at one point? Well, our very own Denis Coderre, mayor of Montreal, told him to "try Diet Coke". Get it? Because Ford is fat... alright, yeah.
NP-hard and runs in exponential time are not the same
yeah, NP-Hard could be even higher than that, I believe.
@R.MartinhoFernandes the only algorithm the solves the problem does exponential number of steps => it is NP-hard
zch
zch
These are classes of decision problems
Hanoi isn't really one of them.
18:29
@zch you can formulate this as a decision problem though, but I see your point
Computer science sounds boring.
zch
zch
@BartoszKP how? It expect exponential output
@Rapptz It's fucking boring.
@zch sure as fuck I had it in one of my notebooks, sec ;0
there was a time when I wanted to go into comp sci
18:36
fuck you @thecosh. I don't wanna fight my wallet.
zch
zch
@BartoszKP, you could define it as "Is n'th move in solution (x->y)?", but I would be surprised if it was proven NP-complete
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
@BartoszKP No. Keep in mind, NP means "non-deterministic Polynomial". It basically only applies to decision types of problems. It means if you can obtain the answer non-deterministically (i.e., guess at it correctly) you can verify that the answer is correct in polynomial time.
You cannot do that for Towers.
6 mins ago, by BartoszKP
@zch sure as fuck I had it in one of my notebooks, sec ;0
18:40
Proof is trivial.
@JerryCoffin Logically, doesn't it also require that there are no known polynomial-time deterministic algorithms to gain the answer?
@zch @JerryCoffin all right, can't find it, so maybe I was just imagining things ; )
zch
zch
@DeadMG, no, NP-hard means "as hard as any NP". NP-complete is what you are thinking of - NP and NP-hard
@DeadMG No. P is a subset of NP. Lack of deterministic polynomial solutions only applies when you're talking about NP-hard, NP-complete, etc., not just "NP".
@JerryCoffin Well strictly, it hasn't been proven that P is a subset of NP.
zch
zch
18:45
@DeadMG, yes it was
user1804599
It hasn’t be proven that P = NP.
user1804599
That’s not the same as P ⊂ NP.
@zch @JerryCoffin wasn't it that NP-hard concerns also optimization and search problems, whereas NP-completness is only related to decision problems?
@DeadMG Strictly, by definition P is a subset of NP. What hasn't been proven is whether or not it's a proper subset.
ack, you've gotta be fucking kidding me.
it's been a while since I've done this, but you're saying that if P = NP, it can still be a subset of NP?
18:48
@DeadMG Yes.
well.
I didn't have much respect for theoretical computer science anyway, but now it's definitely been lost.
zch
zch
@BartoszKP, I think it is acceptable to call some optimization problems NP-hard.
@DeadMG That's pretty much the difference between "subset" and "proper subset".
@JerryCoffin I'd prefer to rephrase that as "Not useful" and "useful".
all right, I've found the fucking book, get ready
18:49
@DeadMG That's all about set theory. CS just uses the existing terminology.
that doesn't really change anything in my mind.
zch
zch
Empty set is equal to empty set and still is a subset of empty set
@DeadMG I don't see how that doesn't make sense.
user1804599
S ⊂ T if S = T
{1,2,3,4} = {1,2,3,4} but {1,2,3,4} is still a subset of {1,2,3,4}.
18:50
@Rapptz Because having subset as a distinct operation is fucking useless.
user1804599
Just like T is a subtype U if T is U.
may as well say "Not superset".
the real useful operation is proper subset.
it's the same as < being far more useful than <=.
< is the useful primitive, <= is a compound derivative that doesn't serve much use and can be constructed from < trivially anyway.
zch
zch
Not with sets
user1804599
Mathematicians are not morons.
user1804599
And sets are not numbers.
user1804599
18:52
You’re comparing apples to oranges.
IME, whilst they might have some ability to describe logic, their descriptive notations leave much to be desired.
@DeadMG If you want to argue that with the set-theory people, feel free. I don't claim any great expertise in set theory, but I have studied it enough to notice that they use "subset" a lot more than "proper subset".
zch
zch
To prove that set is proper subset you usually have to prove two things: that it is a subset AND that it is not equal
and when it comes to communicating with other humans, I do think they are total morons.
@DeadMG that's exactly the statement other people say about programmers ;)
user1804599
18:53
They don’t want to communicate with other humans, except when those humans are elements of the set of mathematicians.
@rightfold Which is what makes them so moronic.
zch
zch
But they would accept to go to a meeting with subset of mathematicians even if it is not a proper subset.
@zch I could equally argue that proving that it's a subset requires proving two things: that it is a proper subset OR that it is equal.
hm, wait.
user1804599
Also, I don’t see how <insert favourite programming language here> would be any different from mathematical notation in this regard.
@DeadMG I think you're mistaken. Your mistake is in assuming that (most of them) want to communicate math with normal people. I'd suggest that precisely the opposite is often true: that their primary motivation is often (usually?) to make their work sound arcane and worthy of funding, regardless of how simple or even downright silly it might be.
user1804599
18:55
My grandmother wouldn’t understand any code written in that language, yet that doesn’t make the language designers morons. vOv
@rightfold The difference is that it has a reason to be that way: because it has to be interpreted by a machine.
and if mathematicians designed and used machine-oriented languages, I'd have a great deal more sympathy for them.
user1804599
> Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.
all right, didn't find anything new in the fucking book
@JerryCoffin Arguably true, but it does seem to be leading to their own demise, in that now they can't teach anybody mathematics and everybody hates it.
zch
zch
And proofs need to be precise
That's the same situation.
user1804599
18:57
You need to learn mathematical notation before you can understand it, just like you need to learn to cycle before you can cycle and you need to learn C++ before you can read/write C++ code.
@rightfold Nice appeal to authority (I recognize the quote, but don't remember which authority it is).
@DeadMG that's why it's not an appeal to authority - no authority is given, just words, which happen to be true : )
well, there's no backing logic.
user1804599
@DeadMG I don’t know either. :P
@DeadMG ...
user1804599
18:58
And if you don’t want to learn it then don’t complain about how bad and confusing and moronic it is.
@rightfold I think it might have been Djikstra or someone like that.
user1804599
Who’s Djikstra? The pronounceable uncle of Dijkstra?
@DeadMG "Hal Abelson, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" (just found it in google ;0)
ah, I can never remember the exact spelling.
it's like occassion, I can never remember whether it's the c or the s that's a double.

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