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16:01
@JerryCoffin Not what I'm arguing against. What I'm saying that before being able to create a functor was a small achievement. Now, its damn easy.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes y u no post on std-asylum? :P
@Xeo I'm tired of beating this horse.
@GamesBrainiac Ah, fair enough. Yes, it is.
Sometimes I fear the C++ community learns too slowly.
16:03
Because it's true. I used "fear" instead of "know" because I don't want to know that.
Why does it learn slowly, what proof do you have?
If you ask me C++11 is a drastic changeover for C++03.
If you ask me, it's not that drastic. It's just that it came at a time when the community hadn't learned to use C++03 yet.
I see.
> hadn't learned to use C++03 yet.
There isn't much to learn.
C++03 is not all that different for 98, now is it?
another episode of "Dr Who" vs another "Learning from data" lecture <tough choice> :E
@R.MartinhoFernandes "The wisdom of the software field is not increasing."
Every new generation of programmers makes the same mistakes as the previous one.
16:08
@GamesBrainiac Pretty much the same with some things that were intended in C++98 made explicit.
zch
zch
But people didn't learn to use C++98 yet?
Oh come on guys! You're being all pessimistic.
@zch Its basically C with badly written classes.
@zch No, not really. People that have been doing C++ development for a living for years should not need to be taught core features of it.
What are core features?
Loops, branches, functions, classes, methods and inheritance..?
Most people seem to understand those parts.
zch
zch
Destructors?
16:14
RAII was not common when I started working in 2005.
@StackedCrooked And that makes no sense :S
@StackedCrooked these are not features, those are necessary components of almost any programming language (with loops and branches being absolutely necessary for a language to be a language)
What do you think I meant with "slowly"?
We're too forgiving too.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Smart-pointers were regarded as novelty and shunned.
Xeo
Xeo
47 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@StackedCrooked And that makes no sense :S
16:16
Indeed.
@StackedCrooked It doesn't even have to be about smart pointers, though.
Nov 1 at 11:55, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I don't know why writing more legacy code is an acceptable way of upgrading legacy code.
There's also this.
And this company was far above average when it came to C++ understanding.
Xeo
Xeo
Doesn't say much when the average is just above zero (which is the sad part)
@R.MartinhoFernandes In my company I was one of few people that weren't afraid to go to the manager and just declare, that some part will be redesigned because it changes too frequently to just maintain it adding more shit to the pile
most team managers prefer just to do silently what they're asked for
I think SO is a major factor the popularization of modern C++.
16:18
To be fair, I think that last quip about legacy is not just applicable to C++, but maybe more than other languages due to its history.
Before that there was Effective C++.
Which is a good start, but limited.
Can std::function be assigned to a functor (not lambda syntax)?
Wait. No. Only the other way around.
@Pawnguy7 It is a functor.
Xeo
Xeo
ParserError: Sentence makes no sense.
16:19
@Pawnguy7 std::function is a functor
It's like asking: Can int* be assigned to a pointer?
Well, at least it's easy to answer.
meanwhile, we need inline quote formatting :(
@BartoszKP you mean "normal managers"... there are other kind (mindless slave drivers)
@GamesBrainiac Identifying problems is an important first step towards fixing them.
@BЈовић yeah, that too : )
16:22
Well yes.
I am not familiar with the syntax though.
Can you just pass an (or the) instance of a functor?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I've always believed that C++ was a little clunky.
you can achieve assigning with =
@Pawnguy7 Not sure what you mean. Provide sample (even if incorrect) code.
@BartoszKP well. it is either that, or they have to accept "yes, this small change request will take a week" instead of "yes, you'll get tomorrow" ;)
But will you get tomorrow something that actually works properly?
16:25
@Pawnguy7 Do you mean like calling foo(std::function<void()>()); ?
@BЈовић while I find this book a bit boring as a whole, it explains very well how important are good communication , honesty, and providing accurate estimates as-they-are no matter how loud the manager is shouting at you ; )
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well. Imagine I have a function taking a std::function parameter. Normally, I would pass a lambda, e.g. [] {}. If I made a functor (using the non-lambda syntax), could I pass an instance of it?
@Pawnguy7 Yes. Again, lambdas are not special.
That said, careful with std::function parameters.
@BartoszKP yes, one of best technical books I read...
@BЈовић :))
16:27
@BartoszKP It says you have to spend 20 hours per week reading blogs, listening to podcasts, etc.. to improve yourself. I think that's a bit insane.
@StackedCrooked it says you should invest some of your time to develop your skills, become a better person/programmer. 20 hours, blogs and podcasts are just suggestions.
@StackedCrooked lol
End of the week
I survived
And std::function also works with C-style function pointers, correct?
@ScottW oh baby, I hope you were thinking about me <3
16:29
lol
@Pawnguy7 Anything callable.
I've seen many things on the internet, but a lion with a dog?!
:DDD
@ScottW Does your wife know that?
@BartoszKP It says you should plan for 20 hours in addition to a 40 hours work week.
If you don't do that then according to him you have no right to call yourself a professional.
I lost my motivation to continue reading after that.
I'm a happy amateur, then.
16:34
:D
You might as well call yourself "boring, broken shadow of a human being"
An exceptionally dull happy amateur weirdo.
@StackedCrooked the main point is "professionals spend time caring about their profession" IMHO
@BartoszKP It's communicated terribly.
> On the contrary, it is a recipe to avoid burnout.
16:35
The book also says things like if you are uncertain about a deadline then you are lying to your boss.
I feel like this isn't something to be a quota.
@R.MartinhoFernandes @StackedCrooked Well in general I agree - as I've said in the beginning - I find this book boring in general. But it has some very good points
@R.MartinhoFernandes people who have been only C++ development for many years know only what they knew that many years before. And the common knowledge on C++ was very different then.
@ScottW Sorry baby, Lion business.
@StackedCrooked IIRC it says that not communicating this fact, and giving optimistic estimates is lying
16:36
That entire paragraph is so bullshit
@ArneMertz That that pool of common knowledge grows too slow was my point.
@CatPlusPlus It's trying to quantify passion. So absurd.
@CatPlusPlus not the part about spending time on improving your skills
> I use 13 passion-hours/week for programming.
@ArneMertz So what you're saying is that C++ programmers are bad at programming and learning
spending time improving you skills can't be a bad thing
but I haven't the energy to be frankly honest
so there's that
16:38
After 40 hours of programming I can't look at code, let alone get fun out of it
yea and there's that too
> enhancing your career
I had passion for software development
Reads like something that'd go straight to Spam folder
now I have tears
16:39
Enhance your career today! Cheap p0dcasts and b00ks
@CatPlusPlus perhaps try some architectural concepts then. Or some KATA in a pleasant scripting language
> pleasant scripting language
is there such a thing?
@BartoszKP You shouldn't have done that.
There's no such thing as scripting language arrgrgrgajrhghjrgjhrgjharghargjh this is why I fucking hate this industry
16:40
I find python pleasant : D
my php katas are a little rusty, better practice them during my 20 hours
See, warned ya.
Also, lol katas?
I don't want to call myself a professional because it means "boring" and more often than not "terrible"
@Pawnguy7 that depends on tour goal when learning
@R.MartinhoFernandes not sure what he means by that
16:41
@CatPlusPlus here is a IEEE publication about scripting languages . So I guess this term exists
@BartekBanachewicz Tour goal?
@StackedCrooked It's a hipster idea introduced by some Ruby programmer.
is a Japanese word describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements practised either solo or in pairs. The term form is used for the corresponding concept in non-Japanese martial arts in general. Kata are used in many traditional Japanese arts such as theater forms like kabuki and schools of tea ceremony (chadō), but are most commonly known for the presence in the martial arts. Kata are used by most traditional Japanese and Okinawan martial arts, such as aikidō, iaidō, jōdō, jūdō, jūjutsu, kenjutsu, kendō and karate. Background Kata originally were teaching and training methods...
Also what the fuck is KATA
memorizing quicksort and writing it again and again
@CatPlusPlus it's from karate
16:42
memorizing quicksort must be a painful affair
A kata is some martial arts concept about repeatedly performing the same movements over and over again until you get them.
@BartoszKP It's wrong
@Pawnguy7 your. My phone is correcting me
So, apply it to programming and what you get is people coding the same shit over and over again.
16:42
@StackedCrooked can't you write it once, and reuse?
That helps a lot.
I guess.
It's used by people who either have no idea about language design, compilers or both
@BЈовић no that would make you very unprofessional
@CatPlusPlus fair point.... oh wait, it's not
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can you code apps in your sleep after that?
16:43
The wrath of Cat.
Fuck if I'm going to explain this for the nth time
@BartekBanachewicz By that, do you mean what areas chosen, or perseverance in areas?
@ScottW Luckily for you I'm quite the tame sort of Lion.
@Xeo no, you find it more easy to solve complex problems, after you've the instances of the same problems in the microscale
16:44
@CatPlusPlus was given
lol, too much messages to handle : D
don't you love this Lounge for that?
@CatPlusPlus no. I say that ther are people who do only programming at their day job and drop the pen at 5pm sharp, not caring about C++ in their free time. And I say that those people just can't have "new" knowledge, because they don't want to learn, not because they are not able to learn.
@TonyTheLion almost as pleasant as python
@ArneMertz They're bad either way
Seriously what the hell is KATA
zch
zch
16:46
Simple programming task
3 mins ago, by BartoszKP
@StackedCrooked http://codingdojo.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?KataCatalogue
zch
zch
Like in kindergarden
come on ATTACK!
> KataFizzBuzz
Ahahahahahahahahahahahah
16:46
This is "fun" and "improving your skills"
stupid name! well spotted! : D
Ahahahahahahaha
Ahahahahahah
@BartoszKP That doesn't explain what it is.
Everyone is so bad
16:47
@CatPlusPlus Not really much different from answering some homework-type questions on SO. Do a simple task, quickly and neatly. All evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, questions on SO generally provide more variety though.
This is the oldest mention of it that I know of.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's like @zch said - a simple programming task, you solve using TDD and keep getting better at it
@JerryCoffin Yeah, stupid and boring is what I'm getting
Cat just wants to play games for the rest of his life
Yes
There's so many games
16:48
@BartoszKP I know what it is. I'm just explaining why your answer to Cat was not appropriate.
Who's got time for this work thing
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks to this you find it more easy to solve complex problems, after you've the instances of the same problems in the microscale
@CatPlusPlus but you'd get bored too after a while
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, ok
@CatPlusPlus Kind of, though the basic idea probably has a little merit: stay sharp at the simple mechanics of programming, using your editor, etc., so that when you're doing real work, you can concentrate on solving the problem at hand.
16:49
@ScottW that's great. But many people don't, sadly.
@JerryCoffin exactly
And people... need that?
Programmers are worse than I thought!
Is anything actually good for you?
I mean, I know you do have some points
How would you solve a Towers of Hanoi problem using TMP? I cannot picture it.
(Also that doesn't explain the supposed fun factor)
16:51
but sometimes you seem to go a little over the top
@CatPlusPlus they don't need it. It just makes them better.
@Pawnguy7 You wouldn't
@Pawnguy7 With a hylomorphism.
@CatPlusPlus but you could
@R.MartinhoFernandes :v
16:52
@CatPlusPlus At least IMO, no. Most do enough coding that the details rarely get in the way much, and coding kata's rarely get into the areas where they might run into a problem (e.g., arcane uses of Git).
@CatPlusPlus it is fun to do KATAs in a group, and comparing results
17 hours ago, by rightfold
I’m going to implement Towers of Hanoi as a template metaprogram.
@JerryCoffin Yeah
I have no idea what can and cannot be done really.
8
If you want to do this in a functional style, it's better to use Haskell and not C++ TMP
16:53
@JerryCoffin There's no such thing as arcane uses of git.
@BartoszKP You're weird
@CatPlusPlus thanks, you too ; 0
@BartoszKP Its fun to masturbate in a group and compare the results.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm a simple minded chap--for me, anything beyond the truly trivial is "arcane".
@TonyTheLion well if you prefer this : D
16:55
:P
@JerryCoffin Oh. I thought you would get what I was getting at: all uses of git are equally arcane.
On a German C++ UG meeting we once had a simple programming contest, solving the Josephus problem - turned out it was quite fun to solve it with TMP - although the compiler bailed out already on small numbers due to template instantiation depth...
I like turtles
@TonyTheLion No, why
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, okay. I won't try to argue that.
16:57
@TonyTheLion I'm just incapable of lowering my expectations
@CatPlusPlus but I got interested in your fury about "scripting language". Don't want to start the shit rain again, can you just provide some link with any kind of explanation on what's wrong with this? It seems quite well defined term to me.
It implies implementation detail is a property of a language
It's like "speed of language"
It doesn't exist
@CatPlusPlus ok, I get it. So it's the "language" that is ambiguous here I suppose
@BartoszKP It's not ambiguous, it's just nonsensical and misapplied
Minecraft time
16:59
"Scripting" is also extremely weak term, I prefer talking about "standalone" and "embedded" implementations
Where scripting would be embedded
@CatPlusPlus I mean it's not used as a formal language, but in the wider meaning of "programming language + its execution environment"
But it makes more sense
@BartoszKP I'm curious- what properties do you think define a scripting language?
@BartoszKP If you think it's quite well-defined, please provide said definition.
@BartoszKP That implies there's only one execution environment, ever

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