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13:00
@CatPlusPlus Well, I'm not sure. I just wanted some guidelines.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes not like I've been teamworking in this manner for about 2 years or so
@thecoshman Nothing out of the ordinary. It's obviously a bug, but since it happened three times already, I wonder if I'm "lucky", or something well-known. /cc @jalf
But hey be archaic, have fun :thumbsup:
I work from home most of the week, which is awesome because it demonstrates that at least somebody recognised how software development happens. But I still have to work at the same time as my colleagues, and I still have to be local enough to be with them physically at least one day a week. Anything less than that would be fucking retarded unless you're some hobbyist
@CatPlusPlus Yes and look at you now
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd consider you lucky. Sounds sweet :p
13:01
Spreading one team unit across continents is fucking stupid in the majority of software dev sub-industries
Look at the tremendous horrendous quality of outsourced code, for an extreme example [edit: the sarcasm wasn't clear enough]
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Lack of communication tends to be a big factor in that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's right there at the core of it
But lack of communication doesn't mean lack of face-to-face communication
@wilx Fuck no. Are you on crack?
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can only achieve so much by sending emails back and forth. I know it's hard for nervous wreck children like Cat to accept, but in the real world you have to talk to people to get stuff done
13:02
@Jefffrey SOLID
@Abyx @wilx Thanks. :D
It's fucking sad that all these idiots can't handle it
Don't read Design Patterns
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ah you hide in home so they can't beat you for using tabs for indentation?
3
@CatPlusPlus Why?
13:02
@CatPlusPlus Why?
@Abyx They agree with me on tabs :D
Which is why they are awesome
Because it's cargoculting.txt
2
@wilx Because it's cool to hate what's right?
13:03
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That explains a lot. ;P
Actually I sort of agree with him here - "use this design pattern" can bugger off
Design patterns should be how you describe what your program does, not how you constrain yourself before you've even started figuring out what your program is going to do
Fuck Design Patterns.
Singleton best pattern.
Design patterns are good. Design Patterns (TM) are bad.
13:04
@R.MartinhoFernandes It explains our high productivity, remarkable code quality and excellent issue turnover rate. :)
Design patterns is what naturally emerges from good design
2
Design Patterns are shitty workarounds on Java deficiencies
@CatPlusPlus they say it about Design Patterns too
@CatPlusPlus Stop saying sensible things, dammit. I can't get used to seeing such sense alongside your name. It's just wrong.
also
yay! I removed one of my most hated pieces of code from Wide.
is @rightfold around?
13:05
I'm almost always right, you're just biased (and you use tabs for indentation)
:v
Well if you log in, I need debug-ish include-only Typescript something, w/o the need to deploy separately
Do you guys play KSP in career mode?
How do you get so much science?
@CatPlusPlus Do you agree with the D?
13:06
@Jefffrey Yes
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep
@R.MartinhoFernandes Investment, education, and you've also gotta encourage the children (THINK OF THE CHILDREN) to take it up.
JBL
JBL
Sometimes I find some patterns to be not so trivial to come up with, and having read about it can help..
@CatPlusPlus That's surprising coming from a cat that doesn't like interfaces. I guess.
It still baffles me that you supposedly intelligent people could not only not use tabs for indentation (what is wrong with you?!) but actually go out of your way to disagree with them (?!?1?1?1?) It's like a roomfull of media studies graduates being handed the keys to all the computers in the world
13:06
@R.MartinhoFernandes going to the mun and similar
I'm sort of unsure about O of all things
@LightnessRacesinOrbit still you don't have to sit in the same room with them to talk to them.
@ArneMertz Being able to see their face is nice.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What have you been doing so far for science?
@ArneMertz we can always post his 10-year old photo
13:07
It's kinda too rigid
In the States I guess there's the whole video-chat fad but that doesn't do it for me either
There's just no substitute for actually sitting with people and having a conversation. Just because we're in 2013 doesn't mean we have to stop being humans
@JBL Then you don't really need them.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ug?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you don't need to be in the same room for that, either.
Sort of "we're too scared of refactoring". Apply common sense, I guess
13:08
@ArneMertz try reading
@Jefffrey When did I say I don't like interfaces
I'm not going to let you drag me into trying to explain to you why you cannot substitute all real human contact for a bunch of computer screens. I shouldn't have to.
Go watch Surrogates
JBL
JBL
@DeadMG Well, you still need to implement something to solve your problem... Though I agree that you could end up implementing the wrong pattern then.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I did.
@JBL fuck patterns
13:09
@ArneMertz Then you saw that I already addressed your follow-up comment, before you wrote it
Skype chats are literally putting yourself in robot bodies
@BartekBanachewicz fuck design?
@JBL Patterns rarely actually help with anything.
@CatPlusPlus that would be more effective and yet still not quite there
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'd post something that's pretty funny but only Cat would get it
13:09
@DeadMG Really?
yes really.
Anything that lets me sleep during the day
You do not have to implement everything you think about using one of the GOTF book patterns.
subtract your mental condition for a moment and interact with your peers without a piece of machinery getting in the way. go on! you can do it!
It's unnatural to work when there's so much noise around
@wilx Sounds like that would be over-abuse of the Visitor pattern
Jun 14 at 22:58, by Cat Plus Plus
I don't consider interfaces to be a problem.
I guess I was wrong.
I am afraid it's un-translateable-ish
I'm not afraid of you
But I find some of the bits useful. Like, once I was tasked to implement undo operation in an editor (non-textual). I do not think I would find more elegant solution than the command pattern on my own.
Also, I did not have to spend time researching it too much.
13:11
I thought you hated interfaces. Also, how do you "do interfaces" without inheritance? (with templates?) @CatPlusPlus
So, be judicious with GOTF book patterns, but do not hesitate.
> In object-oriented programming, the command pattern is a behavioral design pattern in which an object is used to represent and encapsulate all the information needed to call a method at a later time. This information includes the method name, the object that owns the method and values for the method parameters.
That's a lot of words for a bound/partially applied function
See, this is a problem with Design Patterns
They use lowest common denominator language that's really fucking inexpressive
Template method pattern != pattern about (C++) templates
@R.MartinhoFernandes there are a lot of 'quirks' in the KSP engine. You can fly a plane forever just by giving it a but tonne of flaps and wiggling them back and forth
JBL
JBL
@CatPlusPlus Aren't they forced to use that lowest common denominator language ?
13:13
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Of course you can do it. And of course it's necessary to get to know each other better and for the really big metings. But the little stuff like daily standup and weekly meetings can be done online well. They tend to be short anyways (or should be).
@JBL No, because design principles are not and should not be tied to whatever Java can do
@JBL no. They chose to implement everything in a common subset of Java and C-with-classes.
JBL
JBL
Oh, then it's crap.
Which is kind of an important point. If you restrict your solution to a problem by what authors of a book written 15 years ago thought was feasible in the language *they were using", then you have a problem
JBL
JBL
Indeed.
13:14
@ArneMertz I agree. I run daily scrum stand-up over the phone.
I'm just saying that having your team actually spread out over continents so that you can't even meet up once a week (realistically) is retarded
Every language and every programming idiom has its "design patterns", whether they use that term or not. But it is foolish to pretend that there is some universal set of patterns that are always applicable
You miss all the throwaway banter, the accruing knowledge and experience together, everything that makes a team a team; You're just a bunch of people sending shitty code to each other once in a while
@R.MartinhoFernandes lots of transmitting of data
As a general rule of thumb, a "design pattern" is just another name for "boilerplate code required to emulate something that would be trivial in another language"
That's software development
JBL
JBL
13:16
I'd have thought that the GoF had revisions or new editions.
Apparently not.
@CatPlusPlus Which part?
Work along the bottom of the tech tree at first to get solar power, then you can spam experiments to get all the scienc eyou can.
Which doesn't necessarily mean they should be avoided. But they are a workaround for language deficiencies; not a goal in themselves
Sending shitty code to each other
@CatPlusPlus No, that's programming. Software development is more than programming.
13:16
I don't like programming very much anymore
Ah, right, yes, it's that + red tape
No, it's not.
Wow
@thecoshman for a lot of missions, I found it faster (and more fun) to just collect the data and then land and recover it directly. Transmitting takes aaaaages
Shut up I'm trying to be miserable about working in this industry, I don't need your facts here
:<
@CatPlusPlus You could do something else?
@jalf that stops become practical once you are trying to get science about other planets or the sun :P
13:17
The sad part is no
Like, I don't know, jump off a bridge or something
@thecoshman sure
Jumping is :effort:
DISCLAIMER TO LAW ENFORCMENT AGENCIES: I DO NOT ADVOCATE SUICIDE OF ANY KIND AND MY MESSAGE ABOVE SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AS A SUGGESTION TO COMMIT SAID ACT
5
Too late buddy
13:18
You've already jumped?
Awesome!
You're already banned from entering USA
DISCLAIMER: NOT AWESOME
@CatPlusPlus thank fuck for that! now I have a real excuse to never go there
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you just agreed to that weekly meetings aren't necessary either. I'd say some personal meetings every 2 or 3 months should suffice, given they last more than just one day. e.g. 1-2 weeks every 3 months can be good for team building and basic planning and discussions etc.
@jalf Use action groups
Also 0.23 will get rid of that grinding
@ArneMertz I didn't say weekly meetings. I am talking about interacting with your peers at least one day a week. It doesn't need to be a meeting. You know? Just talking with people and learning from each other? Experiencing being next to another human being? Are you really that far gone?
13:20
@jalf Crazy EVAs, collecting launchpad samples and other nonsense.
Fucking autism central in here. Humanophobes
@R.MartinhoFernandes Remember that Kerbin and Mun have different biomes
And that surface, atmosphere, low orbit and high orbit yield different results
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You do know that autism is a real and serious medical condition, right?
@CatPlusPlus I end all missions with EVA + samples (or crash). Juice ran out already.
@DeadMG Oh fuck me breaking news?
13:21
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Then you can stop invoking it as if it's a fucking joke.
@DeadMG It's actually sometimes serious. Because the spectrum is a spectrum so it can be serious and it can be not serious at all.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Get solar panels
Xeo
Xeo
@jalf Also only yields 40% or something, right?
@CatPlusPlus Need science!
@DeadMG Yeah, actually, dickwad, I am not joking. How dare you insinuate that I don't care about it. I guarantee I care about it a lot more than you do.
13:22
@R.MartinhoFernandes What do you have unlocked?
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Minmus soil sample is awesome for science
@jalf Transmitting is a waste: you get x% of the science, and it still reduces the value next time.
Xeo
Xeo
also, mystery goo in minmus orbit
Fact is, there are people here clearly able to interact with humans (you're doing it now) but unwilling to consider the notion of doing so in the real world, and that's sad.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, you have to transmit it repeatedly
13:23
I know it's not always easy.
I know there are those who can't.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, it's not sad at all.
@CatPlusPlus yeah, but still requires lots of electricity and you have to transmit multiple times to get all the science
But, really, that's not a good raeson for a company to spread a team over three continents.
Solar panels doods
@CatPlusPlus Oh, that works?
13:23
@Xeo It varies, depends on the experiment
what's fucking sad is that for most of human history, the only accepted attitude was "MUST ALWAYS HAVE MOAR INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER PEOPLE!11".
I'm not autistic, I just don't like people
:v
:)
@CatPlusPlus That's okay; they don't like you either!
13:24
@R.MartinhoFernandes It only reduces the value of subsequent transmissions by the amount you earned. So you end up approaching the same amount of science either way
Well, I do not like huge crowds of chatty people either. :)
The total science pool is fixed and you can't really lose any
Neither do I
Sitting in a room with five people for a few hours is constructive, though.
I def wouldn't want to do it all week or I'd get nothing done
depends on the people.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Unless you're breaking down the walls.
13:25
Each time you transmit, you just harvest X% of the remaining pool
Not if I have programming shit to do
@R.MartinhoFernandes Constructing mess
Like, I have never been to a concert of any kind as the crowd would make it not pleasurable for me.
Three continents. Continents! Best to break the team up, have more local teams, then have the teams send emails back and forth.
I have nothing against meeting up to bullshit around
13:25
also, I personally prefer three other people normally.
After all this, I suspect that this is what @thecoshman really meant anyway.
or whoever it was....
Let's talk more about space and not this management crap
I've changed view matrix and suddenlt lines don't draw
13:27
Well maybe we can send you and your team into space. Manage that!
circles work all fine
@BartekBanachewicz Change it back.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit stop right there buddy, what exactly are the words you are putting in my mouth?
13:27
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no I need it changed
@thecoshman It's not words
1 min ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
or whoever it was....
@CatPlusPlus I just unlocked the dumbest panels yesterday. Only deployed them on one probe for trying out.
I am getting bored here. I am sort of between projects right now and not have anything to do much, except preparing environment for the next one, which involves a lot of waiting while installing things.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit s/my/someones/
13:28
btw @R.MartinhoFernandes I also don't know if you're aware, but you can do a lot of experiments on (or flying above) different terrain types and they'll count as distinct experiments and offer separate chunks of science
@R.MartinhoFernandes Put a lot of them symmetrically, and you'll always get some power
@BartekBanachewicz Then I guess you're at an impasse
@thecoshman Yep
@wilx I am getting bored here. It's the lounge.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit thank god javascript has so nice debugging features
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz yes.
:D
13:28
7 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
@R.MartinhoFernandes Remember that Kerbin and Mun have different biomes
@CatPlusPlus Both space and management can be vacuous.
@BartekBanachewicz Pretty Helpful Processes
@rightfold next message
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no not that
@BartekBanachewicz Yes that
@LightnessRacesinOrbit but I think it was me who start the 'split teams lowers worth of people' thing
13:29
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I promised Robot I won't rant on PHP anymore
@thecoshman Way too far off the top of the page now
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz you want client-side compilation?
@BartekBanachewicz Time to move on to Javascript then
user1804599
No idea how to do that.
13:29
@LightnessRacesinOrbit well, I can tell you I did (more or less) state that
@jalf Yeah, but that's boring :S
@thecoshman Yes, I believe you
I don't want to send ships to my own planet.
Shipping on your own doorstep
13:30
WHAT IS THAT
2
@R.MartinhoFernandes you know, with the initial parts, you can do quite the interplanetary tour
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz 10k syndrome.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit so far it has been pleasant.
@BartekBanachewicz Welcome to 10k.
@BartekBanachewicz lol, enjoy the flagging system
13:31
@BartekBanachewicz say goodbye to the bliss of sub10k
/me downvotes something. anything
also, huh, it turns out I've been using a reference to a local variable after the function returns for about six months and it's only just decided to crash.
Man, you suck.
Kerbin science is not really worth much anyway
@R.MartinhoFernandes should it crash earlier or what
13:32
Better to max out Mun
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I haven't been exercising this codepath very much in that time. I've been working on other areas.
This is a new level - just a crash dump with no code, or indeed anything else:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19768700/the-application-has-stopped-unexpectedly-please-try-again
hahaha, 9,999 motherfucker
oh turns out I've been using a completely random global variable
Also there are mods for continuous science on stations and stuff
13:33
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ...
@BartekBanachewicz Don't globals get zeroed?
There's literally nothing good about being >10k
just had to downvote 20 or so of your answers
hope you don't mind
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that will be reversed soon enough
Soon I will be annoyed by flags again mwahaha
remember, always, I got you over 10k. Me!
@CatPlusPlus can't wait for long term stations to be worth something
@LightnessRacesinOrbit :)
@MartinJames I have no idea from where this variable comes
@thecoshman Have you seen Scott Manley's reusable space program stuff?
13:35
oh wait I see it
lel.
hmm.
@BartekBanachewicz Joys of global state
VS seems to have decided that the optimum user experience is to wait 2 minutes before performing any operation.
@CatPlusPlus ofc
13:35
@BartekBanachewicz I sorta thought that you had declared it somewhere?
Also, do you guys know if the simulation supports Lagrange points? I'm trying to only spoil myself on wikipedia and not the game wiki, but I'd rather not waste time on something that isn't feasible.
@DeadMG The optimum user experience is to prevent users from loading VS whatsoever
@DeadMG "Waiting for background operation to finish" owns
@MartinJames it was some leftover and instead of using my buffer I used that
@R.MartinhoFernandes no it does not
13:36
@CatPlusPlus Not even that. Just plain unresponsive- the Windows unresponsive-program white tint, everything.
so naturally when I changed function parameters it didn't change
@R.MartinhoFernandes Doesn't that require solving n-body?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's solved for Earth/Moon
soo yeah I have a working canvas
But Kerbin and Mun are not the same sizes etc
13:36
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it does, if you want it done right.
@DeadMG Probably non-robustly searching for vanished network drives, or something. 2013 and they still can't write asynchronous I/O.
@CatPlusPlus 'solved' in what way?
@CatPlusPlus I should have specified n>=3
@thecoshman We know where L1/L2 points are
@thecoshman two-body is solved
13:38
@CatPlusPlus yes and no. We can workout where they are, but to know accurately, you need to factor in more than just the two nearest bodies.
of course, yes, "is it two-body"?
@thecoshman Meh, no. L1 and L2 are so close that no other body has any noticeable effect in them.
Depends how you define "noticeable"
You're not gonna spot it with binoculars, but..
Still, L points are not going to be added to KSP. At least not 'properly' via n-body calculations.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit In a way that requires regular course corrections.
13:39
This is the devs stance
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep, so, they are damped out?
I'd expect this sort of stuff in Orbiter rather than KSP
@LightnessRacesinOrbit One can learn a lot from other people without having to sit in the same room with them. It's not that hard to master online communication on an appropiate level, at least for most people. And of course one needs the presence of other human beings, I never said I didn't. But they don't need to be coworkers. Most people do have that bunch of people called "friends", some even have a family.
I'm master of online
@ArneMertz If I've learnt anything over the last four years, it's that solely internet communication for a work unit is harmful to unit cohesion, morale, productivity and personal development in the long run.
13:41
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah - doesn't seem to help much in the Lounge.
hmm.
@CatPlusPlus me
High five
I sorely wish that I had never written a test that involved checking whether or not I can still generate code compatible with Clang.
13:42
L points would be cool, but not really needed, you get perfectly stable orbits in KSP already, assuming you don't leave your self too close to the orbit of something else.
With a couple of trips to Mun and one or two to Minmus
Just transmit everything
@CatPlusPlus roughly where I am too, slightly different options at the end though
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, they're stable enough for useful timescales.
I went for MechJeb module unlocks
@CatPlusPlus huh?
13:45
        MechJebModuleCustomWindowEditor { unlockTechs = flightControl }
        MechJebModuleSmartASS { unlockTechs = flightControl }
        MechJebModuleManeuverPlanner { unlockTechs = advFlightControl }
        MechJebModuleNodeEditor { unlockTechs = advFlightControl }
        MechJebModuleTranslatron { unlockTechs = advFlightControl }
        MechJebModuleWarpHelper { unlockTechs = advFlightControl }
        MechJebModuleAttitudeAdjustment { unlockTechs = advFlightControl }
        MechJebModuleThrustWindow { unlockTechs = advFlightControl }
@LightnessRacesinOrbit And you can actually put things in orbit of the points, instead of precisely on the points. That makes it easier.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Again define "useful"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Are you being obtuse on purpose?
@R.MartinhoFernandes you can easily get at least a couple of biomes covered though. Do EVA report, crew report and soil sample of launchpad, runway, space center and the grassland/coast just outside it
13:47
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I agree. I think the only thing we disagree on is the needed amount and frequency of direct face-to-face communication. You were talking of at least weekly, I say once every 2-3 months is sufficient, if it's not only for one or two days.
but also while in orbit, you can grab a good handful of per-biome data
(also, mun has different biomes too, so landing different places there will pay off)
@thecoshman They make for easy transfers.
This is good for getting two biomes on the Mun on one trip
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'easy' in what way? less delta-v required?
13:48
> Every Gertrude I have ever known was my grandma.
lol
@CatPlusPlus ah, I play vanilla. Also, ~~~apparently~~~ nose cones now help stability
Eh, this doesn't have problems with stability
I don't think I have any aerodynamic parts on there
@thecoshman From L1 you can switch between orbiting the primary and orbiting the secondary by simply moving towards one of them.
@ArneMertz Sufficient perhaps but sub-optimal
I agree that we agree on the rest
13:51
@R.MartinhoFernandes well done, you just went from one SOI to another SOI. How does it make it 'easier' to transfer? it's not like you can just move to an L point
Less energy
Do you mean you sit in an L point between two bodies, and move to being in an L point of another two bodies?
@thecoshman You trace an orbit that crosses it and when you reach it, you just give a small boost and BAM orbits switched.
I see...
I'll just stick to fuckign huge rockets if it's all the same :P
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I think the optimum varies from person to person. Some people need a little chat every other hour, others need to be left in peace to "stay in the zone"
13:54
js.global.update = update hmm
for k,v in pairs(_G) do js.global[k] = v end
:3
@thecoshman By definition, it's a point where the total gravitational influence of the two bodies is null, so if you push to one side you go to a region with more influence from that one.
ARGH.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but you still have to accelerate to get to that point.
LLVM still does that "We randomly terminate ur process" shit.

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