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10:10
so the slow process has started of convincing my coworkers that having >70 singletons with mutable state is not good for unit testing...
Imagine if you took 30 minutes of your time everyday, to teach someone young.
Didn't you mention 200?
That would be quite wonderful.
it would?
why?
Say, you're good at something. Perhaps painting.
Perhaps programming
Perhaps debating.
And say you talk to a boy or a girl who's say 13 or 14 about something that you painted
or debated about.
That person would have a very unique view of that field or that study.
Someone like a mentor.
10:15
yeah, like, they'd be way too young and inexperienced to really understand anything you say.
its not about understanding, its about communicating what you find interesting
@R.MartinhoFernandes TIL it's way more than 200. But most of them are not very harmful. I found ~76 that have internal state that changes over time, e.g. tons of object registries
and perhaps in doing so, you'd learn a bit more about what you do
because in a lot of these fields people get tunnel vision all too quickly
@ArneMertz I think we've managed to shift the consensus here that our >70 singletons are a bad idea. Now we just need to actually get rid of them
How many people did you have to shoot for that?
10:17
@GamesBrainiac I'd rather write a blog about it than torturing a kid with my one-sided fanboy-talk ;-)
It's lovely how singletons cling to life; once they're introduced, they just dig their claws in everywhere, making them impossible to ever remove
@ArneMertz In three weeks, I'll torturing an entire room with my one-sided fanboy-talk!
@ArneMertz Actually, an opinionated talk is what I'm looking for. If someone really loves something, like Physics or has a great way of solving a particular problem or rather, using certain programming tools to make wicked programs. Perhaps, that would be better than simply giving them some boring factual information.
user1804599
I want waifu pillow.
Hmm. Speaking of not caring for noexcept.
10:23
@rightfold you want a wife?
static_assert(not noexcept(std::forward<T>(std::declval<T>())), "ikr");
I want to care, but I think I'll stick to swap, ctors, and dtors.
10:34
UGh
How do you test noexceptness of list-initialisation?
OR again, I'd say.
f(T); noexcept(f({ ... }));.
Doesn't that include the dtor?
Yes!
I've made the perfect mug of coffee! :)
Though the normal trait on GCC does too coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/d50a06e3d2a4237e
libc++ too.
Placement-new would not include the dtor, but...
static_assert(not noexcept(::new(std::declval<void*>()) int), "sigh");
This is all bollocks.
I really don't want to, but I'm this close to giving up on this feature.
@DeadMG That would also include the ctors of the list elements if initializer_list.
@jalf here, yes. Had a longer discussion yesterday until I got them to admit that there might be people who have a valid reason to discourage singletons ;-)
10:45
@R.MartinhoFernandes declval<listelem>(), no?
@R.MartinhoFernandes about what exactly?
Just fuck noexcept.
@BartekBanachewicz \o/
10:47
Also wow
silver c++ badge
What a half-assed piece of shit.
@ArneMertz oh, I meant "we" as in my workplace
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz newb
@BartekBanachewicz tbh I don't know where everyone gets all their gold badges from :/
@ArneMertz from answering questions?
10:49
@BartekBanachewicz well, look at my profile - id did little more than answering questions. No gold.
@ArneMertz it's about quantity
You need 1000 upvotes.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah I was talking about gold badges in general. Those that even some 500 rep users have.
e.g. the 600votes badge and the fanatic badge oO
Hmm, why am I still trying.
@ArneMertz eh fuck those
10:54
I'm going to post a question.
if you are in you can get them for free
Someone must know how to make proper use of this goddamn feature.
@ArneMertz yeah I have both
why aren't posts that I've upflagged marked somehow? :/
@ArneMertz lol why do you care?
lol what the fuck I see dead people deleted answers
I mean they are everywhere
Especially in all-favorite
Also wtf is Boost.ScopeExit
10:59
Meh, silly stuff.
@User17 care about what?
No gold
I would love 10k+ rep, but I don't love or care about it enough to get one
@User17 you also lack necessary skills
@User17 I never said I cared about having gold. I was just wondering where low-rep users get theirs from. Apparently I am not a typical user :)
@BartekBanachewicz lol doesn't seem to be a couple of months ago when I did care about reps ... reps seem easy when you are willing to answer questions
11:03
@User17 apparently harder that you'd like to
@ArneMertz gold badges should be "actively worked towards"
I have answered 1 question in 3 months ... a bit hard to get reps when you answer no questions
@User17 well 10k reps are not easy if you don't answer questions well
@ArneMertz which means "properly formatted" :)
@BartekBanachewicz that explains why I got none ;)
@BartekBanachewicz yes and maybe with a bit of useful information as well ;)
@BartekBanachewicz me 33 answers 1k rep, you 388 answers 10k rep
seems proportional
11:05
I have no idea what I'm doing any more. noexcept broke me.
ask a catch or a good compiler to give you a hug
or simply just write good code
Ell
Ell
Morning all
Morning Ell
@User17 you got ~400rep for that single question. not for the answers ;) not so proportional
he got freaking 26 questions
11:09
C++ is starting to feel lovecraftian with its features that I prefer to avoid thinking about and pretend that they aren't there at all. :S
Too horrendous to behold.
@User17 with about as much total votes as your two, yes.
My other question has no upvote
Morning all
@User17 so?
Maybe I should make that question slightly better.
11:11
Not my fault he doesn't know how to ask "wanted" questions
Wouldn't auto val = std::move(container.back()); be more efficient? — FredOverflow 4 mins ago
@FredOverflow What if the move throws?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Irrelevant to efficiency. What if the copy throws?
Oh wait...
@FredOverflow Not irrelevant to the matter at hand, though.
If the copy throws, nothing happens. That's the point.
Hm, okay, but even if the copy doesn't throw, the implicit move out of the function might still throw.
11:13
If the move throws... not so simple.
@FredOverflow unique_ptr moves don't throw.
Who said anything about unique_ptr?
Oh, the second part of the answer :)
Are you talking about the first example?
// Exception safety: If there is an exception during the construction of val,
//                   the container is not changed.
//                   If there is an exception during the return of the value,
//                   the value is lost.
All documented there.
@User17 I wasnt talking about that one lucky question of yours. I was talking about your claim of the proportional rep/answer of Bartek and you. What I meant: He got ~9500 rep from his 380 answers, you got ~600 rep from your 33. Not. Proportional.
11:16
Sorry, my mind is trained to ignore comments, because most of them suck :(
my bad
It's ok. You probably want to remove the comment though.
@R.MartinhoFernandes done
@User17 I'm just avoiding inferior tags
Ell
Ell
BitmapTextureAtlasTextureRegionFactory
@Ell What's that? And why does it contain Texture twice?
11:28
@Zeta Why does "assassin" contain "ass" twice?
5
Ell
Ell
@Zeta It's from an android game engine :/ AndEngine
It seems impossible to write nice code concerning android
You are enlightened now, kid. You can stop.
Ell
Ell
But I want to write an android app :/
So, if I write a placement operator new inside a namespace, how do I call it?
> error: ‘void* foo::operator new(std::size_t, foo::bar)’ may not be declared within a namespace
Ooh, there's my answer.
Hmm, I'm fighting the language :(
Just give up, there's no way you can win a fight against C++.
3
11:34
@ArneMertz I was quite unlucky a couple of times when someone answered the question a couple of seconds before me when I was writting up the answer - the other person got a few upvotes, I got none.
Formatting the mac for the first time
I wouldn't worry about it too much.
It's not like rep is putting food on the table.
3
nerds won't know otherwise
Now I have is_nothrow_convertible, is_nothrow_returnable, and is_nothrow_placeable.
I'm winning.
11:37
no, you are whining
Oh, and is_nothrow_placeable_braced, because sigh.
currently have 2 laptops on but chatting on the desktop
gonna sell my old laptop tomorrow, or at least showing it to someone who is interested
@User17 even if you'd chat on laptop, nobody would see your messages because everyone plonked you.
Really? It seems there was always someone who tried to piss me off all day long
If it is not for my tough nerve, I would have cracked down like most people
yeah, you're tough. I like that.
11:42
I think I need food. I just thought I need a noexcept_of namespace /cc @Luc
Again.
Jun 4 at 23:31, by R. Martinho Fernandes
result_of::f<T> f(T&& t) noexcept(noexcept_of::f<T>()) this gets tedious quickly. Fuck noexcept.
HELP I'M TRAPPED IN A TIME LOOP AND THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS
laptop froze after reinstall, I took the battery out :x
@R.MartinhoFernandes the language is just bad. give up on it and use Haskell.
3
@User17 put it into microwave to defrost
Jon
Jon
std::vector won't use your class's move unless it's marked noexcept
user1804599
Don’t put a laptop in a microwave, you idiot.
Jon
Jon
oh.
user1804599
11:49
It contains shitloads of metal.
Ell
Ell
@rightfold exactly
Jon
Jon
when does moving throw?
Ell
Ell
The microwaves are healthy for the capacitors
@Jon It depends on the class?
Jon
Jon
what's a good example
11:50
@Jon when a dtor throws.
user1804599
A dtor cannot throw.
user1804599
It will terminate the program.
it can
@Abyx Since when does moving invoke dtors?
@rightfold nope.
11:51
I don't know a good example.
Jon
Jon
then why do you have to mark noexcept? that sucks.
Writing move ctors is not a common activity anyway.
@FredOverflow Handle& operator=(Handle&& h) { delete p; p=h.p; h.p=nullptr; return *this; } in delete p
That's not a move ctor.
yep.
11:53
@Jon Just don't write move ctors at all. Let the compiler do it.
Jon
Jon
what about for legacy classes that are managing their own memory
Jon
Jon
ok. when do you need to write your own move ctors?
I don't know why writing more legacy code is an acceptable way of upgrading legacy code.
7
When you suck
user1804599
11:56
Yay.
user1804599
1kg of delicious cookies for 50 cents.
@rightfold ebay?
user1804599
@FredOverflow Jumbo.
@rightfold What is that?
@Jon You need to write your own move ctors if you're using Microsoft Visual Studio.
user1804599
@FredOverflow a Dutch chain of supermarkets.
11:58
@FredOverflow But then there's no noexcept.
@FredOverflow yeah I wanted to write that but I didn't because it's not constructive.
@Abyx Nice pun :)
afternoon
OMG unplugging the battery has caused problem to my external harddisk it seems :/
12:04
:'( ~cries~
    noexcept(std::is_nothrow_copy_assignable()
          && std::is_nothrow_destructible<T>()
          && meta::is_nothrow_copy_placeable<T>())
// vs
    noexcept(noexcept(storage::get() = that.get())
          && noexcept(storage::destroy())
          && noexcept(storage::construct(that.get()))
Which is worse?
Yes
(Second one I guess, extremely redundant)
@User17 Good job
that sarcasm
@User17 it also says something like "youFAT"
exFAT = ex fat?
like no longer fat?
12:08
dunno. but it definitely says something about fat.
not fat is about fat too
suggestions anyone?
suggestions about what?
exFAT (Extended File Allocation Table) is a Microsoft file system optimized for flash drives. Windows Embedded CE 6.0, Windows Vista with Service Pack 1, Windows Server 2008, Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008 R2 (except Windows Server 2008 Server Core), Mac OS X Snow Leopard starting from 10.6.5, Mac OS X Lion, OS X Mountain Lion, and OS X Mavericks. exFAT can be used where the NTFS file system is not a feasible solution, due to data structure overhead, or where the file size limit of the standard FAT32 file system (that is, without FAT32+ extension) is unacceptable. Unlike NTFS...
speaking of which time for a evening jog
@User17 maybe it's just a usb controller what died and not HDD with data itself
Jon
Jon
12:11
even vs2013 does not generate move ctors?
@Jon yep
Jon
Jon
:(
there is =default, but not for move ctors
@User17 So what, you've got backup, right?
@Jon Look on the bright side, they have C99 support.
urgh, POST requests
I have to programmatically download something, but its done with a POST request to a server and I'm not getting the right answer
12:17
http is easy.
you just send a text and get a reply
@FredOverflow of which: the external hardrive which I used as the backup or the mac which I tried to format?
@User17 the drive that failed
12:42
@Abyx you can even REST while you wait!
wait, what. I accidentally turned off the power to my computer because I forgot I put it in sleep, and I turned it back on and it woke up fine. TIL my PSU "buffers" enough power to allow for ~2 secs of sleep without power :p
@melak47 many PSUs do that, to compensate for micro-outages
I was just pleasantly surprised :D
had one a few days ago - the PC just stayed on, main monitor just went off and on again - secondary monitor did not take it well tho
flickering black with white stripes -.-
yeah one of my screens does that when you turn it on just at the wrong moment while the PC is booting up
maybe a desynced signal? :E
12:53
@melak47 mine did that always after being on for 5-20 minutes. Builtin flaw in the IC
After some googling I let my brother solder a resistor on two of the pins - works now most of the time
after I got my money back, of course ("would you be so kind and dispose of the monitor yourself? We learned it's known to have that flaw")
second hand monitor for 2€ =)
lol
our cable TV company is kinda like that. We switched to TV over IP months ago and cancelled the cable...but nobody bothered to show up to turn it off :)
oh, I found out what this mysterious single uint, interpreted as 4 bytes, unpacked into 4 floats, is for. It gets unpacked again, in the vertex shader into 3 floats...
that company repairs and sells second hand monitors, so they had to either replace or repair or refund the broken thing. fiddling around with the electornics would not have paid off for them
and apparently, it doesn't pay to send someone out here to turn off our cable either :)
Xeo
Xeo
Gaaaah, they nerfed the Rod of Discord bad time in Terraria :<
Before, you could teleport around freely however you wanted - now it puts a debuff on you that damages you when you teleport again. Meh.
13:09
@Xeo wth is Terraria? From what I see on the web it looks like some Minecraft/MarioWorld cross breed?
Xeo
Xeo
It has very little to do with Minecraft
@Xeo well, I don't know Minecraft either - the description just reads like there could be similarities. The Wikipedia article mentions MC as well. Sounds like fun for waiting times.
Xeo
Xeo
well, so far my playtime on Terraria, according to Steam, is over 250 hours.
sounds good. Is single player posible, including either pausing it or idling longer times?
Xeo
Xeo
ya
It auto-pauses as soon as you tab out
13:19
noexcept(base::f()) complains that cannot call f without object.
@Xeo sounds great for LoL queue times :-)
Xeo
Xeo
It's great fun for non-waiting-times too
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe this->base::f() or something? :)
Xeo
Xeo
It has quite the heavy emphasis on combat and action as opposed to Minecraft
@Xeo I figure. But I play LoL too much to have any non-waiting time left ;)
13:21
@FredOverflow Complains about this at top level. (I thought that was now allowed)
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes nopes
IT'S JUST A WORLD OF NEVERENDING PAIN
7
@Xeo Says here that I got 94 hours.
Xeo
Xeo
noexcept(std::declval<base&>().f())
13:22
That's what I have now. It makes it even more annoying than duplicating code: you can't even macro this out.
@R.MartinhoFernandes noexcept(declval<base>().f())? #wildguess
wtf is declval
meh. too slow
Xeo
Xeo
@FredOverflow Provides you a "value" in an unevaluated context when you don't have one
(i.e., you don't need to know how to construct a T to get a value for it)
@FredOverflow a function declared to return a value of just the type you give it
13:25
@ArneMertz T&&, I thought.
I'm almost done now, though.
Pain it is.
Xeo
Xeo
@DeadMG std::add_rvalue_reference_t<T>, even
@DeadMG I had not dug into the details yet
@Xeo's explanation is better anyways.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You've described my life.
13:31
@Xeo Why does it return an rvalue reference?
I said it with Krieg's outside voice.
@FredOverflow It returns an universal reference (which is what add_rvalue_reference does.)
C++ is lovely.
TIL that the body of a caterpillar turns into a "soup" and reassembles into a butterfly while inside the cocoon.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what is the difference between T&& and typename std::add_rvalue_reference<T>::type then?
@StackedCrooked oh wow
I didn't know
And despite this drastic reassembly butterflies still retain their memories from when they were a caterpillar.
Xeo
Xeo
13:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh... it's nor really a "universal" reference. It's not deduced and just reference collapsing at work
@FredOverflow I'm glad you asked!
@StackedCrooked Awesome. Source?
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also, just returning T would yield nearly the same effect (prvalue instead of xvalue for non-reference T, but eh)
@Xeo lol, the question already had my upvote :)
@FredOverflow yeah I am always paranoid about such things, most of the things are backed up on 2-3 devices so when one failed, there will be backup on backups
13:34
@User17 My backup is Dropbox.
I don't trust the internet
I do have some backup on my NY server though
I'm pretty sure Dropbox is more reliable than any solution I could come up with.
just in case my house burns down
I don't need backups
I don't have anything important enough to backup
your years of work?
I am a hogger, I keep all my physical 'trash' too.
13:37
well I'm gonna see about sleeping
see you all tomorrow, hopefully.
bye dead
Once my mum came to visit me when I was living alone in an unit/apartment, she threw all my old stuff out when I wasn't in. I found out when I came home, I went mad!
We just got a new HUGE ass 3D printer.
who is we
Xeo
Xeo
And I have a day off~
13:44
@nightcracker Company I work at.
This thread is funnier without context.
> x = curry(op["+"], 2)(1)
> =x(3)
4
That, well, works.
Xeo
Xeo
wazzat
@Xeo Lua with require"base"
but it's just so... poor.
> Eating is pretty weird when you think about it. You grind up various materials to suck energy out of them and then poop them out. I think it's weird that we eat together socially, but at the same time it's not like we are getting together as a family to take a poop. It's just the other side of the same process.
13:50
I can do time travel, but it's at the speed of 1s/s.
@FredOverflow Because the killer is an ass and the killed is probably an ass too?
assassin = ass & ass within
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, we lost that last part over the past centuries. There was a time when collective pooping was a socilaizing event where contracts would be forged...
Hrm.
Now VS actually autocompletes, but I cannot break old habits :\

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