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std queerase
 
@nwp back paddling. Also, I have several rooms at my place already
 
nwp
/me is disappointed
 
@Ven dat advice too
@nwp Sorry. The rooms were part of the estate when we acquired it
 
Ven
@sehe I admit I've been looking through the transcript to look at some deleted questions, since I just got 10k
 
1:04 PM
Congrats!
 
instance Applicative TaskMonad where
    pure a = TaskMonad $ \e -> (TaskResult a, e)
    (TaskMonad f) <*> (TaskMonad g) = TaskMonad $ \e ->
        let (TaskResult f', e') = f e
            (TaskResult a, e'') = g e'
        in (TaskResult (f' a), e'')
i forgot how annoying applicatives are
 
Perl is so ugly
 
Ven
:[
@BartekBanachewicz yeah but it starts off your monad for you
 
Ven
also looks like a specialcase of State somewhat?
 
1:07 PM
yeah it is
 
hence why I'm annoyed, implementing State took me way too long :/
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz {-# LANGUAGE ApplicativeDo #-}
 
@CatPlusPlus Cat is still alive
Too many are missed
 
@Zoidberg well tell @StackedCrooked to upgrade GHC. I'd use that if I could.
 
1:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Exercise
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked upgrade GHC
 
1:20 PM
^
 
please dump more code
makes me cum everytime
 
nwp
:(
 
Ven
information pratique l'ami
 
toujours
 
nwp
I had a point to make, but now I will just not tell you and make you feel like you missed out
 
1:22 PM
I will not find sleep tonight
 
Ven
but you will find love
 
nwp
solo love only
 
Ven
there's no other kind
only lies and damned lies.
 
but you will find statistics
@nwp seems out point was stronger
 
@BartekBanachewicz Now much more beautiful
 
nwp
1:31 PM
@sehe you will never find out!!!
 
@nwp on the contrary!!!
 
Ven
nice globals :P
using strings = std::vector<std::string>;
 
To be honest I could also just stick them into an unordered_map in main and everything would be okay.
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure not really
you're right it doesn't really matter
lol, surprised the Markdown parser here didn't break.
 
1:35 PM
(w(h(y)))?
 
I was just testing out the GameState type system mostly though
I was trying to see if I could make it all string together nicely.
It does, to an extent.
 
lol mixing printf and cout
 
To be frank it's just my dumb little project.
 
not a valid excuse sorry
it's not because it's a dumb project that you can write shitty code
 
I don't understand why you're so angry
 
1:37 PM
(read shitty as in Bartek's definition: not perfect)
 
user406009
Lol.
 
user406009
> Snippet that causes g++ to hang and use gigabytes of ram (no template/include loops)
 
user406009
 
user406009
Really GCC? Really?
 
1:39 PM
@sehe and what does it look like I'm doing
 
@Lalaland Very old hat. Lemme search
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz that's pretty backwards
 
Ven
I understand you're doing that to use do, though...
 
@Ven the Applicative instance?
 
1:41 PM
10
A: Does g++ compilation time depend on array size?

seheThis is quite a wellknown conundrum. Somewhere along the way, the actual memory for the array is going to be allocated See: Linker performance related to swap space? It would appear that, as we might have suspected, it looks like ld is actually trying to anonymously mmap the entire static me...

 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz yeah
 
oh you people with deriving Functor
 
Ven
just use Free, amirite
 
@ScarletAmaranth that's the most trivial part of it
 
being the left adjoint is thug life
 
1:42 PM
@Ven yeah :/
I used Coliru's GHC which means I come from 5 years ago
I think the whole answer could be summed up just with the first sentence
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's just I feel uneasy to hope for an autogenerated map
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz why do you require Functor?
 
@Ven I don't know what I'm doing at this point
I've managed to confuse myself more by answering that question
 
user406009
@sehe Nice. It's still surprising that it triggers on "only" 133 MB of statically allocated junk though.
 
user406009
1:45 PM
Maybe two bugs combined together or something?
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz are you sure StateT isn't enough?
also why are you hasking a badlet like me
 
@Ven I am not sure it is enough.
also it's StateT not StateM
 
Ven
I don't know much haskell
(also it's monday)
 
if he specialized StateT he might also have specialized behaviour
 
...
 
Ven
1:49 PM
please don't dump stuff here. also please read the rules
 
@sehe I SUMMON THEE; great evil ist befallen on this room
 
should I post a gist instead?
 
A question on SO
And please remove the message
:D
 
done
 
Thanks
 
1:50 PM
phew
 
np
@ScarletAmaranth you could've used your fingers to type something amongst the lines of 'please dont flood the chat' instead of being a bit bitchy-esque
no offense tho
 
no offense taken, I'd be constantly offended otherwise given the amount of people that do this in this room; I guess reading comprehension is a skill that not everyone can master (and use to read the rules of the room that happen to be pinned as the top message on the starboard)
 
I've read them, but it's not something you can memorize in 1 day.
 
1:54 PM
literally the first thing on the page is about asking questions - it's like the main theme of the rules; but then again, see the previous message about reading comprehension
 
@VermillionAzure and then your game can become something like (intro + battle + outro).run('some startup data')
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz ??
 
you know enough to not be able to say you don't know much
 
Ven
huh
holy fuck Mail sucks. If I copy-paste something from chrome, it just shits, pastes a big box. If I remove it, it shits itself worse and the body becomes empty and uneditable.
 
Barket is trying to confuse you with obscure sentence formulation
 
Ven
1:57 PM
@ScarletAmaranth definitely more obscure than Haskell
 
to many moands
 
@ScarletAmaranth Just drop it. He's obviously very willing to cooperate. Save our lamentations for later
 
> I'm out of bad words myself by now. – Jasper 41 mins ago
this is Haskell in 2016 ladies and gents
so many tyeps
 
Jasper que ça va s'arranger
 
1:59 PM
@sehe it was dropped by that sentence, no worries; I can't wait for him to become a valuable part of the lounge - like a cog in a well oiled machine
 
Dec 7 '15 at 0:46, by sehe
@ScarletAmaranth I didn't know you went cynical. When did that happen
 
like an old fish in a well oiled machine
like a rusty bolt
 
rusty lightning is still pretty fast
 
@sehe I am just being :)
 
Ven
You either leave the lounge young or see yourself becoming DeadMG.
10
 
2:02 PM
which is in accord with the theme of the room!
 
@sehe better cynical than sehenical
 
@ThePhD > Everything is possible with the little help from make_index_sequence
 
inb4 cinchnical
 
2:17 PM
Am I in the correct location for actual C++ questions? :p
 
Yes this is the right place
 
30 rep is required to chat, right? (completely unrelated question to the context)
 
what's an actual C++ question
@ScarletAmaranth 20 IIRC
 
Okay good :) I am looking for a library that can be used for physically based rendering
 
that's a google search not a c++ question
 
2:19 PM
Thing is, I couldn't find it in google :(
 
oh ok... what is ceil((38 - 20) / (rep penalty for a downvote))?
 
@DmitriBudnikov So tempted to kick
 
@JoeyvanGangelen and you've assumed we're better at googling
 
@JoeyvanGangelen There's no answer. That's why
 
@ScarletAmaranth 9, but you need 10 to bring it below
 
2:19 PM
I was hoping one of you would happen to magically know a library
 
It's a subjective matter
I know many libraries.
 
@JoeyvanGangelen well you could try an existing rendering engine like luxrender, blender or something.
ok.
 
@JoeyvanGangelen and then magically hop on a magic unicorn and magically gallop into magic lands where magic libraries grow on magic trees
 
@sehe Why? Poor guy didn't do anything
 
I knew you were going to do that response
 
2:21 PM
I knew too
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've been under the impression that it's the fairies that weave those magic libraries
 
And that one. Boooooooooooooring
 
ring (how's that for predictable)
 
@edition Isn't Blender an actual application? I'm more in search of a dll or lib or anything alike that would allow me to render my own game with the use of pbr
 
2:24 PM
@JoeyvanGangelen I cannot help you any further then.
 
> render my own game with the use of pbr
@JoeyvanGangelen so why don't you just use Unreal Engine
 
@BartekBanachewicz Unreal Engine does a lot more than just the graphics rendering. I'd prefer to develop the rest of the application myself
 
@JoeyvanGangelen why?
 
Mainly because I prefer to have a mental image of my source code, so that I can quickly solve issues that will arise
 
@JoeyvanGangelen No design or planning, lack of research.
 
2:29 PM
Learning wise it's also more educational to develop the application as much as I can personally (I've come to accept that graphics won't ever be my specialty, hence why I'm searching for a library for that part)
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's when you plonk, not ask "why" - how to lounge 101
 
@JoeyvanGangelen Except there's hugely smaller possibility of an issue appearing in UE's source, so you're still gonna be solving issues in your code, except it will be smaller by an order of magnitude
Using libraries doesn't change that at all.
 
Ven
why are you wasting time arguing
i'm getting a flashback of yesterday
 
@JoeyvanGangelen I disagree. There are many parts of the implementation that are simply tedious and uninteresting.
@Ven I like pointless arguments, why do you ask? :D
 
Using a complete engine I would have to integrate several systems such as networking inside the application, whereas using a library it would be the other way around.
 
2:31 PM
@Ven and everyday before that
 
And yeah, arguments are fun ^^
 
@DmitriBudnikov :D
 
and you weren't here during the year where bartek was having his haskell revelation so
 
@BartekBanachewicz And you're proud of that?
 
@BartekBanachewicz use the power of plonk
 
2:32 PM
@edition well some people like child porn instead
 
Why not both
 
I think pointless arguments are relatively harmless
 
is this starbait
 
Never heard of DoS
 
@JoeyvanGangelen I'd say it's the exact opposite of what you said. If you have an engine, you already have everything integrated, while when you use separate libraries it's your job to glue them together, marshal the data and so on.
 
2:33 PM
@Bartek I really hope you have a consistent sense of humor.
 
what do you mean by consistent
 
what do you mean by sense of humor
5
 
@BartekBanachewicz Everything that is already integrated indeed becomes less of an issue, but all the parts that aren't suddenly become a way bigger concern. I don't mind glueing all the things together (actually, it's quite fun to do), as long as I can work within my own setup (idk, autism and my own world I guess)
 
@BartekBanachewicz When can we tell that you're making a statement with humorous or not so humorous intent?
 
@JoeyvanGangelen and other bad reasons, yeah (what you said simply doesn't work in practice and people actually finish projets on ready engines)
 
2:36 PM
oh nevermind
 
@edition that's your job to figure out innit
 
@BartekBanachewicz yep.
 
2:48 PM
@AndyProwl lol this still pisses me off.
 
@edition did you actually delete the question about how to stop deleting messages?
 
@AndyProwl yes
 
...
 
I'm so meta even this (removed).
 
no!
I'm meta, you are merely an ieigiiieieia.
 
Ven
2:57 PM
@DmitriBudnikov I've been here since mid-2014 already :o
it's gonna be my 2 years anniversary next month..
 
> But there's something a bit different about this 100th data breach - it was provided to me by the site that was breached themselves. It was self-submitted, if you like. Usually, a site is breached and the data floats around the web whilst the impacted organisation either has no clue what happened or they stonewall and avoid admitting the incident
Hell froze over. Hacked firm cares more about its users' security than its corporate image https://www.grahamcluley.com/2016/04/hacked-firm-cares-about-users-security-corporate-image/ https://t.co/v3HjDCBibk
 
eh Euro is so expensive now
of course when I'm running out of money it had to go up
 
3:13 PM
@sehe you make GVIM cool.
 
user1804599
What is the opposite of CSE? Inlining.
 
user1804599
What do you call the web interface of an explosive device? Daeshboard.
2
 
ISIS what you did there, etc
I love how "equation" is "ekwasyon" in Tagalog
 
uuuguu and it's raining
 
3:29 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm tempted to reply that "harmless arguments are relatively pointless", but that would probably too obvious (at least coming from me) so I'll refrain.
 
> * Mouse-mode has been rewritten. There's now no longer options for:
- mouse-resize-pane
- mouse-select-pane
- mouse-select-window
- mode-mouse

Instead there is just one option: 'mouse' which turns on mouse support
entirely.
FINALLY
 
@edition I stopped using it
 
@sehe In favour of what?
 
terminal vim
 
Ven
just use emacs with evil-mode, dood.
 
3:35 PM
been there done that
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes neovim over here
 
Ven
@sehe I've been doing that for a bit more than a year now, and I still like it :)
 
you went back, @LucDanton?
 
@LucDanton Any concessions you had to make?
 
@Ven can’t find the time to try it seriously
@sehe naw
 
Ven
3:38 PM
@LucDanton well, it wasn't very painful as I remember it...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Python support is incomplete and it affects some of the stuff I use, but I don’t remember which and to what extent
No menu/balloon either (that’s all gvim right?) which technically I sometimes used but I actually only noticed very late, so make of that what you will
I had a ballooneval thing set up for Haskell but somehow I managed to never hit that in months
@Ven it’s time I'm lacking, i.e. other things I want to try keep popping and pushing evil-mode down the list of things
 
Ven
that's the time it takes to find someone who cares about Haskell, yes
@LucDanton that's fine, nobody has enough time :) (and when we do have time, we lack willpower)
 
I’m doing a stupid Python thing right now
 
Ven
Duh, I seemed to remember Clojure's lexer added namespaces to the names, but apparently it doesn't. O_o
 
4:05 PM
ARGH, I have all the same annoyances with range-v3 as with my old stuff.
 
Ell
What annoyances are they?
just out of interest
 
I'm wading through a sea of special cases for what is essentially rng | transform(f) | join.
Because f returns a vector, I cannot use that, so I'm writing my own range adaptor. It's just as unfun as it used to be. No matter which implementation I try, it'll have silly special casing.
 
to be fair it’s a fairly gnarly thing to tackle
 
I know.
I need to make a SSCCE and tweet it at Niebler.
@rmartinhof @FrogShadeGarden Use an action. This yields a flattened vector: "rng | view::transform(f) | action::join".
This is the alternative he gave me.
 
Make it fit in 140 chars for bonus points
 
4:11 PM
Not acceptable because it materialises the range.
 
Ven
that's a bit of an issue for infinite ranges, yes :P.
unless you have infinite memory and infinite time
 
Not just that, though.
 
I'm finally getting to browsing a bit of range-v3 and the proposal
 
@Ven I want to be able to do something like src | encode | to_ostream without an unnecessary extra vector. (encode is the name of the operation I'm trying to implement)
There's no reason to have that vector
action::join just iterates and push_backs into a vector.
 
is 'generalise end iterators to sentinels' really the big reveal?
 
Ven
4:15 PM
right, not the best kind of efficiency.
 
@LucDanton I think so.
 
so… no bidi filter?
 
@Ven Or on the other side, I want to be able to do src | decode | normalize.
@LucDanton Haven't checked, but I haven't seen anything that would make such implementable.
 
I’ve been carefully putting down some of my thoughts on the topic, I'll keep at it
 
I find group_by reaaaaaaaaaaally misleading, too. It groups adjacent elements.
 
4:17 PM
like RLE, but without the L?
or no sorting?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that’s actually not too unusual, I think
 
[ 17, 23, 23, 17 ] | group_by(id) is a range of ranges equivalent to [[17], [23, 23], [17]].
 
it’s the lack of a lazy sort that’s going to hurt, innit?
 
4:20 PM
what is unusual is grouping via binary predicate, or am I crazy?
 
It's a generalised key projection, I guess.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So vaguely like std::unique, but for ranges.
@LucDanton Hmm...now that prompts an interesting question: what algorithm to use for a lazy sort. Heap sort seems the obvious choice. Is there anything better for the task?
 
@JerryCoffin You can't do a lazy sort.
 
I honestly have no idea
 
Consider [1, 2, 3 ,4 ,5 ,6 ,7, 8, 0] | sort
Producing the first element of that range requires evaluating the source entirely.
 
4:25 PM
'online' is the right terminology iirc, I actually don’t like the 'lazy' and 'eager' short-hand in this case, much too imprecise
@R.MartinhoFernandes the interesting property being that not all the work be done, but as much work as needed to produce the first sorted element, then second, etc.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you obviously have to take all the input at once, but you can then produce the output one element at a time. The point of using heapsort (for the obvious example) is that you can amortize much of the effort over outputting elements, so you don't pay up-front for all the sorting, even if (for example) you only use the first few elements.
@LucDanton Fair enough.
 
@JerryCoffin otoh sorting regularly comes up as an argument why laziness-by-default nicely benefits composition of algorithms
 
So far the only reason I found to use range-v3 over what I have is ease of transition to a future standardised interface.
As far as easing the writing of new ranges, I've found it rather disappointing :/
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that’s unrealistic to expect of a library imo
 
Extending LINQ is really easy :S
 
4:33 PM
isn’t that forward-only?
with random-access special casing perhaps?
 
Just like what I'm trying to get done here.
 
user1804599
Foobar
 
Looks like others have been considering online/incremental sorting recently as well. larshagencpp.github.io/blog/2016/04/23/fast-incremental-sort
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wait, what do you need special-casing for then if you only want forward?
you have me worried now, is is the whole shebang of adaptors/facades etc. that are awkward to use?
 
@LucDanton Since the primitives provided cannot handle what I wanted, I had to write my own adaptor "from scratch", and the interfaces I have to implement them always leave me between two annoying compromises.
 
4:38 PM
is it the lifetime of the vector elements :v
 
Nah, it's when to produce the vector.
When implementing a cursor I can produce the vector and cache it on the deref function (called get), or produce it on the ctor and on the increment function (called next).
 
yeah that’s an old one, even istream_iterator is in on it
 
The former requires mutable because get is const. The latter requires checking for the end iterator. (nope, that was an alternative I was exploring; confusing myself now)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Best of both worlds. Make the vector optional and build it on the first deref if it hasn't been built yet. Destruct it on call to next
 
@caps That's not the best of anything. It's awkward and doesn't mimic what a flat loop would do.
 
4:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not awkward if you are striding the range.
Or filtering it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh is 'mimic a loop' your gold standard? it’s mine :D
 
@LucDanton Yep.
If I need branching that I wouldn't need in a loop, it's subpar.
 
as a goal/argument it actually knocks down a lot of silly things (i.e. iterators are just not going to cut it, mismatched types or not)
 
Sorry, I wrote that before I read your full problem statement. That's something that's always on my mind when writing an iterator adaptor--what if we want to skip some of the elements? And what if we want to deref multiple times?
 
// I literally want
for(auto code_point : str) {
    for(auto code_unit : encode_one(code_point)) {
        yield code_unit;
    }
}
It's simple.
 
4:44 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you working on ogonek again?
 
Cool.
 
I’m once again toying with ranges and I’m deep inside the bowels of flatten right now
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes co_yield; FTFY ;)
 
I'm checking if range-v3 will help me get rid of many of the awkwardnesses in my existing iterators. (OH GOD there's a lot)
This was the very first one I tried because I thought it was the most likely to be improved.
But the cursor concept closely mimics iterators, and that's a mistake, IMO.
 
4:47 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What makes you think that?
 
Maybe I can write my own facade from scratch and use a different approach. Need to check.
@Borgleader Well, in this case the problem essentially boils down to the fact that nothing gets called before the first dereference. This means that you either check in the deref function to see if you need to produce the vector and cache it there (in a const function :S), or you do work in both the ctor and the increment function.
Actually wait, yeah, the increment function then needs to check for the end.
 
Because you can't do cache(*++it).
 
This guy really hates common OO practices :)
Oh wait, this one sounds even better:
 
And since you the caching in the ctor, you need to advance before caching the next one.
 
4:51 PM
Dang, I don't Russian :(
 
@Borgleader If the iteration pattern was "advance, test, deref, advance, test, deref, advance, test" instead of "deref, advance, test, deref, advance, test, deref, advance, test, deref, advance, test", this would be trivial.
Actually, shit, no.
 
weren’t you the one knocking me down about having to start ranges :D
 
Needs to be "advance & test, deref, advance & test, deref"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fuck Unicode, Latin-1 FTW!
 
Nov 27 '12 at 22:19, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@JerryCoffin As I understand it, the story goes like this: they fucked up (ISO 8859-1). Then they "fixed" it and to "distinguish" added a dash to the name. But it was still fucked up, so they "fixed" it, but it was a breaking change, so they named it ISO 8859-15. But it was still fucked up, so Microsoft came and "fixed" it again, and that is Windows-1252. However, some people started to mislabel Windows-1252 as ISO-8859-1, so software authors "fixed" it by interpreting ISO-8859-1 as Windows-1252.
 
4:55 PM
Okay fuck that too, ASCII ftw!
 
ISO 8859-15 is Latin-9, btw. #notypo
 
user1804599
EBCDIC
 
lol ISO 8859-1 and ISO-8859-1 are different
way to go
 
@LucDanton :3
 
(as I recall the exact argument was that having a 'started/unstarted' state distinction without a way to query that state is a pit-of-failure sort of affair)
 
user1804599
4:58 PM
> Professor: "So the American government went to IBM to come up with an encryption standard, and they came up with—"
Student: "EBCDIC!"
 
user1804599
TIL UTF-EBCDIC is a thing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, I see
 
Hi sweeties ^_^
 
user1804599
user image
3
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
5:06 PM
at work we call this a "fuck off price"
 
Co-workers prefer procedural style over functional style. :(
 
user1804599
I prefer good code.
 
I prefer just money.
 
I like when the idea is elegant, over when the implementation is
 
I should be more specific--they prefer having lots of intermediate values, instead of having function call return values being passed directly into other function calls.
 
5:20 PM
Sometimes it's just for names.
 
I sometimes create an anonymous lambda, name it, in order to call it in the next line
 
I finally closed an issue yesterday, but opened another one today ç___ç
 
@milleniumbug That can make sense sometimes.
I don't like "caching" return values if I'm only going to turn around and pass (or move) them into another function call.
It's noisy to me.
 
I do it when the returned values are not obvious (like when there are several return values and the order matters).
 
But I do see how the top-to-bottom, left-to-right reading style that long-time procedural programmers are used to is very disrupted by lots of nested function calls.
 
5:26 PM
If you literally do auto res = a_function(a, b, c);, then yes, that's bad
 
@Morwenn There are sometimes good reasons to do it in terms of actual meaning of the code to the compiler.
 
for starters, name it better
 
@milleniumbug Well no, naming is a big part of why they prefer the procedural style.
And that is something to their argument.
Return values getting passed directly to other return values means you don't have a name for the return values.
But I feel that if you know the names and signatures of all the functions involved it should be clear what's going on.
Without intermediate named variables.
But, different strokes.
 
> Choix de langue: Défaillance du système
yes I’m sure
 
5:31 PM
Today at work: conditions depending on translated strings. It works, but...
Hey, apparently we've got some new music from 1000 years ago.
 
posted on April 25, 2016 by Scott Meyers

Recent developments have conspired to prevent me from attending this week's Nexon Developers Conference in Seoul, but I'll still be making my keynote presentation, "Modern C++ Beyond the Headlines." The talk will be live, but I'll be at home instead of in the conference hall. The heavy lifting on the communications front will be handled by Skype. The keynote will take place at  5:05PM l

 

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