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1:00 PM
and "via radio" would be pretty much the same as actually being connected to the internet.
 
That's a medium.
 
Except not.
Radio is not a network. Data travels one way only.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ If you mean just broadcasting radio. It can't happen.
 
user1804599
did somebody say BBC
 
1:00 PM
> I can't happen.
 
@elyse lol
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You need to specify the rout to get information.
that means 2-way
 
@khajvah What?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Errr. How do I request information about the state of the street 5km from me? Surely I'm not constantly receiving all the information about the status in the entire city?
 
internet and radio are orthogonal concepts
 
1:01 PM
It works already like this.
At least in Italy.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Also, radio signals are already used for the Internet :/
Radio signals are just a medium.
 
Local radio stations gets into your radio and tell you of traffic.
Independently from what radio you are listening to.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Imagine if the city is huge
 
And how "real-time" is that?
 
(Assuming you have that setting turned on, of course)
@Griwes Very real time.
 
1:02 PM
@Griwes You can make it as realtime as you want vOv. There are no technical constraints on that.
 
@khajvah What about it?
 
user1804599
Maybe I should enable bindist for LibreOffice.
 
Also exactly. Imagine, say, Tokyo - do you constantly get updates for all the streets?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ One source can't cover the whole city.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't mean every radio signals. I mean the actual signals transmitted by radios. Those that usual transmit music.
 
user1804599
1:03 PM
oh
 
@khajvah Why does it have to again?
 
user1804599
it doesn't support bindist
 
user1804599
top kek
 
(And also for all the outbound roads for up to ~200km outside of the city?)
 
Also radio coverage is on the whole territory where there are streets already.
And you only need to transmit local issues.
 
1:03 PM
@Griwes It's not a massive amount of data, really.
 
Also there are these radio waves that have huge radius, called AM.
Sometimes I receive American radios via those
 
Minute-by-minute updates are good enough and you can get a lot of shit in one minute.
 
Just so you know how long the radius is.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It kind of is - even if only on the receiving side.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Those are bounced off the ionosphere.
 
1:05 PM
What is the advantage of the radio again?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup
 
Security?
 
No system when you are receiving any data on a computer is ever really secure.
 
One way connection.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ What's so good about it?
 
1:06 PM
@khajvah The infrastructure already exists, it's public (but doesn't have to be), and it's anonymous for recipients.
 
@khajvah That data about my car does not travel back for example.
 
the radio system you specified can be hacked even more easily
 
Or data from my car.
 
It has disadvantages, though.
It's easy to disrupt.
 
Also self-driving cars should be able to work even without external data.
 
1:06 PM
You can easily fuck up the whole traffic if the car is self-driving
 
Yes Jefffrey they should
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't make use of data, if available
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ irrelevant.
 
@khajvah No, you can't. You can only make some people take worse routes.
vOv.
 
And I'm fairly certain that once you have all cars being self-driving cars you can even avoid traffic jams like 98% of the time by simply analyzing the speed and amount of cars around you.
 
back to discussing self driving cars
 
1:07 PM
@khajvah Actually, it's the original point.
 
its like the lounge is stuck in some ungodly infinite loop from which there is no escape
 
No bartek this time
 
@Prismatic Bartek isn't here to whine about "the experience" and whatever.
 
lol
 
1:08 PM
I've read a study IIRC where they explained how traffic jams usually occurs (of course not those due to incidents), and it has something to do with the amount of cars there are per km and the speed at which they are travelling.
 
Yes and how dynamic rate limiting can make jams disappear
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, you can't - not in the era of highways that don't have exits for kilometers.
 
my uncle is doing some v2v regulation stuff in the US
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can make many people take whatever route you want.
 
There are experimental highways with that sort of functionality (USA?)
 
1:08 PM
and bam
 
@MaiLongdong Right
 
2-way connection is more secure.
 
@khajvah There's no inherent additional security in that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm still here, which means "banning everything but self-driving cars is stupid" is still present. vOv
 
@Griwes You are missing my point. Read the message above you.
You can predict traffic jams most of the times. And you can prevent them using a locally applicable algorithm per car.
 
1:09 PM
@Griwes You don't whine about it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Encryption. And you can actually confirm if the data source is legit.
 
@khajvah Yes, but that doesn't require two-way anything.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How can you confirm it is legit with one-way connection?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ If you don't have a global authority on the situation, one of two things is going to happen: 1) everyone predicts no traffic jams 2) everyone predicts a traffic jam and everyone decides to use the same alternative route.
 
Get signed data, validate it.
vOv
 
1:11 PM
@Griwes No
 
Unless you put a different algorithm in every car...
 
...which is going to end up in a huge mess.
 
@khajvah What does two-way communication add to that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Anybody can send the exact same signal.
 
1:11 PM
Well, not different.
You put the same algorithm.
 
@khajvah And it's useless because it is correct vOv
 
Because suddenly you have no clue what each and every car will do.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Encryption
 
I think it's along the lines of "reduce speed depending on the amount of cars around you".
And you put that in every car.
 
The situation loses one of the nice upsides of having just automated drivers - namely, everyone knowing what is going to happen.
 
1:12 PM
@khajvah Buzzwords. Encryption is against third parties peeking in. It's useless for public information.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ err?
 
It's of course not that simple, but the algorithm is able to use local informations to avoid jams.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No.
 
Why not?
 
@khajvah Also, again, using encrypted data doesn't require two-way anything.
 
1:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean, you can change just the route information.
 
@khajvah And then the signature is invalid.
 
On a highway, you can be 10 kilometers from a traffic jam, but have no sight of it.
 
@khajvah Seriously, this is nothing new. Protection against tampering is not a new thing.
 
@Griwes Again you don't understand.
There would be no traffic jam.
You prevent traffic jams, you don't avoid them.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Something crashes.
 
1:13 PM
X, signature for X is ok, and Y, signature for X is discarded.
 
@Griwes Those you can't avoid all the time anyway
 
A bug in programming causes the highway to be blocked.
With global information you can go around that.
 
A third-party cannot produce Y, signature for Y from X, signature for X. (there's the underlying assumption that no keys have been compromised, of course)
 
With just local sources of information you can't.
 
@Griwes You can have local signals display something.
If that's the case.
 
1:14 PM
hm
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I'm not fixed on avoiding it - I'm fixed on dealing with it when it happens.
 
Or transmit the information via radio.
Either AM or FM
 
true
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Still needs a global source of information.
 
@Griwes And those are specific cases.
 
1:15 PM
@Griwes Radio enables local sources through bandwidth assignment.
It also enables multiple sources.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ And there we go again - you'd really need a massive amount of computational power just to process the ever incoming data.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ ...which you need to handle.
 
@Griwes No, we already have that and the amount of data per information is much larger than it needs to be.
Because what is transmitted is audio that we can listen to. Not bytes the computer can understand.
Yes, audio is bytes.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It's low quality audio.
 
What I mean is obviously optimized bytes for a computer with a specific format.
 
Audio also compresses well because it can be lossy.
 
1:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is it smaller than 1kb per information transmitted?
Because I'm pretty sure I can express any problem on a street with just 1Kb of information.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I don't know how much it is, but I just get the impression you're overestimating it.
 
Probably even just 512B
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not the one claiming we have a problem with processing such a huge amount of memory transmitted.
 
I'd expect information in the order of a few megabytes.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ this should be correct
 
Griwes is.
 
1:19 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes megabytes just for a street?
 
But megabytes per minute is nothing out of the ordinary.
@khajvah That's way too localised for some public broadcast service.
 
Also this information doesn't need to land within 100ms. It can arrive with even 1 minute delay.
 
@Griwes Also, route planning is not something that requires immediate and constantly up-to-date results.
 
Oh, here's an exit. [ 20 seconds ] Oh, someone crashed there again. Too bad, I'll have to sit in a traffic jam. I wish that info was updated every second, not every minute...
 
The point is that 1) cars should not have data coming out, 2) data coming in should be processed and have the possibility of discard it if necessary.
Using radio is just an idea.
You can have a network of broadcasting antennas over every street where you can broadcast the needed info wherever you want.
 
1:22 PM
"5 dead because their self-driving car could not send any information to the authorities about their crash due to @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ 's point that cars should not have data coming out."
 
@Griwes OMG 20 seconds. No one could possibly transmit a few megabytes in 20 seconds!
 
So you can avoid terroristic attack in the form of "let's speed every car as much as possible, disable breaks and see what happened".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm just saying that "every minute" is terribly slow :F
 
Because with such attacks you can remove approximately 30% of the population with just a computer and a very good knowledge of computer science.
Nuclear bombs are much harder to get and actually deliver to the target.
 
I don't think it is, but I'd say that whatever is an agreeable frequency is more than enough for updating the data.
 
1:24 PM
Especially if you are far away.
 
It's just a completely different time scale, really.
 
user1804599
If I build and install stuff manually I should put it in /usr/opt, right?
 
user1804599
I.e. outside of portage.
 
It sucks that I have to install cmake to build a cmake project
 
1:24 PM
@elyse Put it in /home
 
@Griwes What
 
I like b2's bootstrap
I used something similar for babe but I'm not sure if I'm the only one to care about this
 
1) self-driving cars will not prevent deaths every single time, 2) self-driving car's response is much higher than any human; with the appropriate distance from one car to the other, you can avoid follow up incidents pretty much every time.
 
@Mr.kbok I just assume python exists and have a similar thing (though very rudimentary as is).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Like scons?
 
1:26 PM
Independently from external data.
 
Oh, nevermind I require ninja.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ [citation needed]
 
But ninja is xcopy-deployable.
 
> physics
there
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Self-driving cars can't get drunk and drive.
 
1:26 PM
There'll be cases where it doesn't matter how fast the CPU is - the problem is the actual movement.
 
@khajvah Yeah, no fun.
 
@DonLarynx Ok, I most likely would not die from bird flu, but the bird did peak me & I did bleed:
 
@Griwes What are you talking about?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, cmake too.
 
Seriously, I would trust self-driving cars more than humans even if they are connected to the internet.
 
1:27 PM
I wouldn't, because of terroristic attacks.
 
@Mr.kbok Meh, then why is it so annoying?
 
I would trust other's self-driving cars more but mine less :)
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Whatever. I don't see you actually wanting to listen to what I'll say.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The outcoming data doesn't matter for that!
 
@Griwes Yes, that's why I'm asking follow up questions.
@Griwes Sure it does.
 
Unavoidable accidents are unavoidable?
 
Ell
1:28 PM
@elyse put it ij /opt yes
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ How?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You have to put it somewhere, and windows shares always come with annoying access rights issues, downloading from internet is annoying too
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ who would like to avoid unavoidable accidents. I just want to somehow deal with their aftermath vOv
 
Ell
But know that portage does install things into /opt sometimes I think
 
1:29 PM
@khajvah Incoming data alone can be discarded, and you cannot create a connection with a car without data traveling both ends.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, it doesn't. An attack would involve sending commands to the cars. No inherent need to receive anything back.
 
And it really can be hard without a communication channel to the outside.
 
Linux people have configure+make, which at least is simple for the user
 
@Griwes What? I never claimed that.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes, or it can overrun a buffer and run shellcode.
 
1:29 PM
4 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
1) self-driving cars will not prevent deaths every single time, 2) self-driving car's response is much higher than any human; with the appropriate distance from one car to the other, you can avoid follow up incidents pretty much every time.
You are disregarding everything else.
 
At a more general level I find using cmake on windows super annoying because there's always stuff that breaks
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You can send minimal data, like "I am on this street". I don't see the problem. You can still discard the data if it is not legit.
 
Like the entire world stopped existing, and there were only (unbreakable) roads and cars.
 
@Griwes Yes, read part 1 of that message.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ And yet they could prevent more!
 
1:30 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You don't need a 'connection'. Your system is more or less the UDP model, and no one considers UDP safe because it doesn't require replies.
 
@Griwes No, unavoidable incidents cannot be prevented.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, forget about incoming data too then.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ But sometimes you need to send data out to deal with their consequences.
Like with a "send an ambulance to my position ASAP".
 
Or "there's an accident, please update that shit".
 
@Griwes That can be done from a completely separate device
 
But hey, you need an outgoing communication channel for that, and that's bad!
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The car itself must be able to do that!
 
1:32 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ And put it in the car. Solved.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Jeff, how does one-way connection improve the security?
 
The better question is: why would you unnecessarily override methods? — Borgleader 9 secs ago
 
But oops, now the car can send data out, and it's bad (for whatever reason)!
 
What I mean is either you have a super safe way to deal with incoming data and outgoing data and you can prevent terroristic attacks using that every single time, or you have to have black boxed car that are not connected to anything.
@khajvah It doesn't.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Then why don't you want your car to send some info?
 
1:33 PM
Outgoing data makes no difference. Like, zero.
 
Outgoing data is fine I guess.
Outgoing data + local signs maybe.
 
No, it's not fine, because it enables tracking :P
 
We are already tracked anyway.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes CCTVs are already tracking.
 
You can't attack with local signs can you?
 
1:35 PM
@khajvah Oh, so there's no problem in enabling it in a thousand more ways!
 
Like you would have the car reading dynamic signs on the street.
 
Just put the bad payload in the signs?
 
Also, you have a smartphone in your pocket, which pretty much is tracked enough.
 
Ugh, what's with the broken windows bullshit?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But the car could ignore anything that it doesn't recognize, and the amount of memory can't be extended because the size of the image taken by the car is limited by design.
 
1:36 PM
shit I have to install python27
 
7 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes, or it can overrun a buffer and run shellcode.
 
> the amount of memory can't be extended because the size of the image taken by the car is limited by design
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes There are no levels of tracking. You are either tracked or not.
 
like "LOL you have the wrong python"
 
@khajvah The more ingrained it is, the harder it is to fight it back.
 
1:37 PM
@DonLarynx bird's doing
 
@chmod711telkitty ?
 
@khajvah You're basically willing to accept more of it by virtue of it already existing. Please don't do that.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I don't know what you mean by extending the amount of memory.
Sounds like downloading more RAM.
Buffer overruns don't extend anything.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You cannot transfer more data than there is already
 
Also, it doesn't have to be a buffer overrun. That's a placeholder for whatever vulnerability shows up.
 
For example?
 
1:39 PM
11 hours ago, by chmod 711 telkitty
I am so going to die from bird flu - I had meat between my fingers & the damn butcherbird accidentally peaked me when getting the meat from my hand & I am bleeding
 
@chmod711telkitty I didn't do that.
 
wrong bird :p
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Er, you can just browse a CVE database to get that.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ If they find vulnerabilities in SMS receiving code you can be pretty sure there will be in cars
 
@Mr.kbok Problem is that here have a much more indirect transfer
 
1:41 PM
The assumption there is malicious payload is not far-fetched. And the only way to avoid previously unknown malicious payloads is to discard all payloads. That comes with a cost, though.
 
You have the data being displayed, the car taking a picture, reading the pixels and trying to figure out what's something in the picture.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes All I can do is use cash instead of credit-cards and turn my GPS off. Still don't think I can "fight more" when 99% of people just don't give a shit.
 
There are always vulnerabilities. It's never simple like that
 
@khajvah Yes, that's what being ingrained means :(
 
Not to mention that the kind of data expected from those pixels is very fixed.
 
1:43 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, it's irrelevant. The systems misbehaves once it receives the malicious payload.
 
You can exploit all kind of shit, even image processing algorithms
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes There's no malicious payload.
 
The only way to avoid all previously unknown malicious payloads is to discard all payloads regardless.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ We're not talking about fairy tales here.
 
You only have pixels, and there's no invalid pixel.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes, that's a lot of code running.
 
1:44 PM
Dude IT security doesn't work that way
There's no invalid bytes either
 
Explain how IT security works, kbok.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You start by not assuming there's no malicious payloads.
 
Robot is explaining already but you're not listening
 
"kook" was actually a cool name
@R.MartinhoFernandes How so?
 
You don't assume your system is perfect.
 
1:45 PM
"assuming there's no malicious payload" != "assuming my system is perfect"
 
Oh yes, it is essentially the same.
 
No, not at all.
 
A malicious payload is one that makes your system misbehave upon processing it.
If your system doesn't ever misbehave, how far from perfect is it?
But seriously, just browse some CVE database.
 
It can misbehave for other reasons other than payload.
 
You'll see all sorts of silly shit there.
 
1:46 PM
And there could never exist malicious payload, but the system could also not be perfect.
And it could be as far from perfect as you want it to be.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The part that deals with incoming data? How so?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It could randomly crash for example. Independently from incoming data.
 
Inputless behaviour can be tested beforehand.
It's deterministic.
 
So?
"there are tests for it" != "it's perfect"
 
Things don't crash by magic?
 
1:48 PM
Also no, it's not deterministic necessarily.
 
Then there's input somewhere vOv.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Who said you need magic?
Maybe your tests don't cover every possible execution path?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ If there's no input, there's only one path.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can read uninitialized data for example, do you consider that input?
 
Anyway, this is veering from the important bits.
You don't assume your system is impervious to any input.
 
1:50 PM
Hehe I got downvoted to hell on reddit for telling a beginner not to use Visual Studio.
 
That's the whole point of even considering security.
 
Are you seriously trying to claim that programs with no input can be made perfect because they are deterministic and can be tested? How large can you definition of "input" be to make this statement hold true?
@R.MartinhoFernandes So you are saying you were wrong and we better move to some other topic?
 
GetCurrentTime() is input
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, I want to focus on something other than the definition of perfect, so I rephrased it above.
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
You don't assume your system is impervious to any input.
 
@Nooble why'd you suggest not to use it
 
1:52 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let's start by defining "input".
Because you can make it as flexible as you want currently.
 
@Prismatic Freedome
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ FFS It's just exactly what we were discussing.
 
For example you could consider the memory outside of the memory needed to run the program as input.
 
The external data you receive.
The one an attacker could send.
The one you have no control over.
 
Is the entropy pool within your system input?
 
1:53 PM
I don't care.
 
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
The one an attacker could send.
 
Please reply.
 
The malicious payloads I referred to.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I am not interested in defining words I can avoid using if that's what it takes.
11 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
@R.MartinhoFernandes There's no malicious payload.
This.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Except that we are 2 in this conversation, and I might need to use it.
 
1:55 PM
Then you define it.
I think I was already pretty clear about what data I'm talking about.
 
You have been using until now. And I may need to define it to go against a statement when you used "input".
So it's you who have to define it.
 
I already rephrased my argument.
I also already mentioned that I rephrased my argument.
 
That's irrelevant
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But did you already mention that you mentioned that you rephrased your argument?
 
I still need you to tell me if the entropy pool is considered input.
 
1:56 PM
Whatever 'input' means is not what I meant.
 
Why are you making this so hard?
3
 
Because I don't care about it and I don't want to think about it.
 
It's a simple yes or no question.
 
An attacker cannot control your entropy pool (hopefully), so it's not what I am talking about.
 
strange question but do I need a call to a post condition? What is a post condition used for?
 
1:57 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Which is irrelevant if I don't have an answer for it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let's just agree on "No", ok?
 
No, I won't because I haven't thought about it yet.
 
@KalaJ I can give you an example based on std::vector
 
ok sure
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, for me this is a possible milestone in the argument, so I'll wait.
 
1:58 PM
I don't need it for this, and I already explained why it's outside the scope I meant.
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
An attacker cannot control your entropy pool (hopefully), so it's not what I am talking about.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Then I'm not interested in it.
Have fun.
 
Postcondition on function std::vector::push_back(const T& element): the .size() is one more than before the call and the .back() refers to the newly inserted element
 
@KalaJ "a call to a post condition"? What do you mean?
 

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