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9:00 PM
YOU'D BETTER BE ANDY
 
@райтфолд Woe*
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit See, I suck at languages too. I'm having a bad day.
 
@sehe I'm sorry, okay :P
"story" it was
 
user1804599
main.mill:3.21: warning: return value is of type 'std.String', should be 'std.Boolean'
    func f(): Boolean { "x"; }
                        ^
 
user1804599
9:01 PM
<3
 
Recently a colleague who is new to C++ asked me why I used returned std::vector<T*> and not std::vector<T&>. I didn't really know how to answer.
It wouldn't work of course.
 
simple: std::vector<T&> is illegal.
 
But I had previously told him to prefer references over pointers. And he seemed to find this very inconsistent.
 
references are a bit strange in C++.
 
Yeah.
 
9:03 PM
the behaviour you want when preferring T& to T* is completely different when considering it as part of a container.
T& is mostly useful for function arguments and not so useful otherwise.
 
@StackedCrooked reminds me of this question yesterday
Yea, maybe, but i can not tell you, because it does not compile so i can not say if it does what i want. At first i used the pointer variation, but then my boss wants to know, why i do not use references and i cant tell him: Becaus it does not work.. So i have to find a solution with using references or i have to explain why i use pointers. So i have to understhand the whole thing.. — Christina Obermaier yesterday
 
@Puppy It's also useful as a return type.
 
that too.
 
@sehe I'd introduce a Ref<T> class :P
 
pointless
 
9:05 PM
Or: template<typename T> using Vector = boost::ptr_vector<T>;
 
@StackedCrooked std::reference_wrapper
 
makes no real difference
 
Just to remove the omnious * .
 
@StackedCrooked This is a great example of the damage you do to peoples' learning when you spread such generalisations as "prefer references to pointers".
 
std::reference_wrapper is only useful to indicate to various Standard functions that they should reference instead of copy their argument.
and I'm not aware of any that require it for any reason other than because they're broken or useless.
 
9:07 PM
It's useful when you want to store a reference.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Thanks.
 
@StackedCrooked np
 
Xeo
@Puppy ?
 
@Xeo Name one.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Pointers do too many thing. They are evil.
 
Xeo
9:08 PM
I'm not quite sure what the argument is
 
For decaying make_foo-style factories there has to be a protocol in place.
 
@Xeo I'm not aware of any use cases for std::reference_wrapper that don't boil down to "We, the Committee, cocked up. Have a workaround."
 
E.g. this includes the std::thread constructor and std::async, not just the obvious stuff.
 
Xeo
In that case, what @Luc says
 
for example, std::bind, a.k.a., "We apologize for not shipping polylambdas like we should have done"
 
9:09 PM
Pointers are basically std::optional<std::reference_wrapper<T>>, which is awful.
 
@Jefffrey The are eval.
 
or std::thread, a.k.a., "We apologize for forgetting that we invented std::function and feel the need to duplicate std::bind's interface again".
 
std::thread, std::tuple, std::async.
 
@Puppy std::thread { std::ref(f) }.join()
 
@LucDanton std::thread { [&] { f(); } }.join()
 
9:10 PM
@Jefffrey optional reference wrappers are the best thing ever.
 
Only when you want that.
 
@Puppy Touche.
Saved by the join.
 
@Rapptz std::async, which is pretty much the same fail as std::thread in this regard. There's no reason why std::async should also implement function argument binding.
 
std::thread { std::ref(f), p } means you’re not hassled with the pointer element type
 
I disagree with you but assuming you're correct what's your explanation for std::tuple?
 
9:12 PM
even if you have a brainfart and forget about std::function, you still don't need it because you already have std::bind.
 
I can never figure out how to move an object into a lamba parameter via bind. (I have figured it out one or two times. But I forgot how.)
 
@Rapptz I actually have no idea what that interaction is.
 
@Puppy I don’t consider it a duplication, but a reuse (i.e. namely the consistent use of INVOKE).
 
I hope we switch to C++14 soon so I can use move-capture.
 
Xeo
@Puppy std::make_tuple with references.
 
9:13 PM
It’s true you could have everything take void(), and let the caller bind. I don’t feel strongly either way.
 
decltype(std::ref(t))
std::reference_wrapper<T>
lol
4 more characters just using the name.
 
@LucDanton It's not a re-use when the thread constructor duplicates the same interface unnecessarily, really.
 
Java called, it wants its long names back.
 
(std::function is irrelevant and would only matter for the implementor btw—except it’s not useful here.)
 
9:14 PM
@Xeo a.k.a. "We wish we had language-level tuples but we don't; sorry for the inconvenience"?
 
Xeo
@Puppy Doesn't change anything.
 
@LucDanton Yes, I realized that. You don't need it either way. You only need std::bind. Then you can completely junk the binding part of std::thread and there's no need for reference_wrapper here.
 
Xeo
You still need to somehow communicate whether you want a reference or a copy.
 
std::bind is incredibly inconvenient.
Ugh std::placeholders::_1
 
@Puppy template<typename F, typename... Args> thread(F&& f, Args&&... args): thread(bind(f, args...)) {} // with forwarding is self-explanatory for my tastes.
^not duplication
 
9:16 PM
and of course since there's no need for std::bind anyway if you didn't cock up and fail to ship polylambdas
 
We should postpone the discussion until C++14 has become mainstream.
 
@Xeo Well, I've been thinking about allowing the user to specify explicitly the tuple element type in the tuple literal, for some arbitrary element.
 
Then it won't matter anymore anyway.
 
personally I'm not sure what use tuples of references are beyond std::tie which doesn't need reference_wrapper
 
It’s because you special-case references, when there is no need to if they are not overloaded as they are in C++.
 
9:18 PM
They would only confuse my colleagues. Why is std::tuple<T&> allowed and std::vector<T&> not..?
 
If references are plain values, then tuples of references arise naturally and there is nothing much to say about them.
 
references aren't really values by definition.
Wide's moved a long way towards harmonizing them but there's a limit on how far that can go.
 
References are more like aliases.
 
Next you’ll tell me functions aren’t either :v
 
heh
well, strictly, in Wide they don't really exist, only overload sets do
but those are values.
 
9:21 PM
> 'I call it my billion-dollar mistake. It was the invention of the null reference in 1965. At that time, I was designing the first comprehensive type system for references in an object oriented language (ALGOL W). -- Tony Hoare
References seem like a way to fix this historical error.
 
there's nothing inherently wrong with null pointers, unless you work in a language where everything is a pointer.
personally I have been considering changing some of the default-value semantics.
 
Xeo
needs better language support
 
it's a lot less risky in Wide to simply reference whatever you're given because temporaries last longer.
 
@Puppy Well, then null becomes 'not an object'. Can be useful.
 
Xeo
Fun stuff: the v in void f(int&& v = 42){} lasts for the duration of the calling expression.
 
9:24 PM
@MartinJames It can be useful, but it can also be exceedingly fucking annoying.
 
That’s not very fun.
 
@Xeo I actually once did void f(void* p = alloca(42)) {}.
 
Why did you do that?
 
worked surprisingly well because the alloca is invoked in the caller's stack frame.
no idea.
I think I just wanted to fuck around with alloca and see if it would work.
 
@Puppy At least it always causes a segfault/AV when dereferenced. I wish all my bugs blew up my apps like that.
 
9:25 PM
of course these days I wouldn't want to be seen dead with an alloca in my codebase.
 
@MartinJames Yeah. Null-pointer deref is the most reliable UB I know of.
 
@Puppy Yeah - fuck alloca.
 
Why is it even called alloca?
 
no idea
 
@StackedCrooked lol - never fails to generate an AV for me, and I'm very happy about that:)
 
user1804599
9:27 PM
 
alloc_automatic_storage_memory C-style?
 
Thread safety: MT-Safe
I would hope so.
 
@Puppy Sounds reasonable.
 
a.k.a. why_did_I_do_this_to_myself
 
Oh are we play the C identifier game.
Alright.
 
9:28 PM
@Xeo TIL
 
What's cnd_t?
 
condition type
 
condition variable
 
lol, thread-safety with alloca.
 
well it is certainly safe to call alloca from multiple threads concurrently.
 
9:29 PM
mtx_t => std::mutex.
thrd_t => std::thread.
The C threading library really hates vowels.
 
inorite
 
@MartinJames If allocating memory on the stack was not thread-safe then I'd rather switch to Java :P
> What mistake has caused more grief, more bugs, more workarounds, more endless hours consumed, etc., than any other? Many people would say null pointers. I don't agree. C's biggest mistake is: Conflating pointers with arrays.
 
I also found out a while back that the C thread library is really mediocre compared to the C++11 one.
 
Not all letters were creatd equally.
 
^ Walter Bright.
 
9:30 PM
@StackedCrooked Allocating it is thread-safe, but when you signal a pointer to it to another thread, it's gone by the time it gets to its destination.
 
not if you block
I sneezed and farted at the same time.
 
Stack memory is not a great candidate for shared memory in async operations.
 
depends on the operations and their lifetimes.
 
@StackedCrooked Well, I would have gone with misuse of strlen etc. on C 'strings' that are not strings.
 
9:32 PM
@StackedCrooked I'd probably say that C-strings are one of the worst.
 
@Xeo We know..... It's just like a const int& v bub
 
NULL terminators, oh god
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Sure. And?
 
@Xeo And nothing
 
@Puppy Quite possibly the worst software contraption ever devised:(
 
user1804599
> result of referentially transparent expression not used
 
user1804599
Should the diagnostic for that point to the first token in the expression or to the semicolon following the expression?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit TIL about spelt.
 
I thought only spelled was correct.
 
user1804599
9:38 PM
@StackedCrooked Nothing is.
 
Anyway, time to get ready. I need to go down to the club to torment the Derby fans. Some of them may be at the iPro stadium, helping with the suicide-watch, but there will be enough in the bar for some fun.
 
user1804599
Pass copies of values or pointers to immutable values over channels.
 
Don't worry, I always pass my pointers by value.
 
No one wants to go out and drink tonight :(
Hi
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Where you are, maybe.
 
9:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fortunat efor you :D
 
user3010322
Robot's boss successfully got Robot to like going out and drinking? :D
 
Installing GHC and Cabal on Debian is such a pain in the ass
 
user1804599
Ok so.
 
@Jefffrey Why?
 
user1804599
if x in T {
    // compiler must now think x is of type T
}
 
user1804599
9:42 PM
This is quite easy to implement.
 
@Rapptz Because the latest "Experimental" version of the Haskell platform they have is from 2013.
I can update cabal to the latest version just fine, but GHC is stuck either on "stable" 7.4 or "experimental" 7.6, while I need 7.8 because this package requires base >= 4.7.
 
user1804599
Also, this is interesting.
 
@райтфолд x is always in some set because you have static typing.
Right?
 
@StackedCrooked That's Chandler.
 
9:45 PM
RIGHT?
 
user1804599
proc f(x: Boolean) { }
let x = g(); // type of x is unknown at compile-time
f(x);
// compiler can from here on assume x is of type Boolean
 
@Rapptz Wait for it!
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey No, it's dynamically typed.
 
oh boi
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked OMG HE'S SO CUTE
 
9:47 PM
> There's three major compilers and a bunch of little ones. Do we need more or do we need less. Should the standard choose one?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked dat cook
 
^ Committee bursting in laughter.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey What's wrong?
 
Why dynamic typing?
Just why.
 
and Herb says he has a perfectly good one :v
what a joke
 
9:48 PM
@райтфолд He's hiding his manboobs.
 
user1804599
lol
 
@Rapptz Yeah. Sooo funny.. ah.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Simpler. Also easier to implement.
 
user3010322
@Rapptz Yeah, and he said it with such a completely straight face too..
 
@райтфолд Simpler and easier to implement the bugs.
 
user1804599
9:49 PM
I don't care.
 
We should have more compilers!
Like Chandler says I guess.
 
@Rapptz Just copy the folder.
 
@StackedCrooked They seem to be having a good time.
 
Yeah.
At my first job I had to use Metrowerks Codewarrior C++ compiler.
It was a pretty good compiler. But the IDE was horrible.
 
Nintendo used to use that.
 
9:53 PM
Oh dear:(
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28919988/general-race-condition
 
user1804599
@Rapptz No, we should have fewer.
 
That question has finally driven me to drink, BFN!
 
user1804599
The fewer compilers you have, the fewer you have to give a shit about when you want to write your code.
 
user1804599
Luckily there are only two actual C++ compilers so it's not as bad as with e.g. ECMAScript.
 
@MartinJames Excuses..
 
user3010322
9:55 PM
WHY DOES EVERYTHING IN STATISTICS HAVE TO BE COMPUTATIONALLY BUTT.
 
@ThePhD You don't like butt?
 
TIL it costs $1200 a year to be an ISO committee member
 
user3010322
@Rapptz Unless you're emeritus.
 
user3010322
Then it costs nothing!~ (Ish. Mostly.)
 
user1804599
Should I warn about unused result in { f(); 42; } if f is provably pure?
 
9:57 PM
@райтфолд I think you should worry a little bit, but not too much.
 
user1804599
main.mill:4.7: a little worrying: result of referentially transparent not used
        { f(); 42; }
          ^
 
How do you make that an error? -Werror=a-little-worrying? :D
 
lol
 
user1804599
main.mill:8.5: warning: result of referentially transparent expression not used
        id("a");
        ^
 
user1804599
10:05 PM
hehe it sees id is a pure function.
 
@StackedCrooked It's Vlad.
@райтфолд Stahp
 
@StackedCrooked Stahp
I wish these shitty 'viral news' sites would stop saying that every single new joke image has "broken the internet"
 
IPv6 is much harder to break.
So those problems should disappear in the future.
 
Clang-style diagnostics?
 
10:16 PM
should i use unity 5 under wine, unreal engine, or just wait for source 2?
 
The second one.
 
I thought U5 could natively target Linux
 
the download page only had Windows and Mac..
 
It can target Linux
The editor doesn't work on Linux.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked lol impure languages where order of evaluation isn't LTR for everything.
 
10:18 PM
It's a WIP
 
I don't get the former two acronyms.
What is LTR and what is WIP?
 
Work In Progress, Left to Right.
 
Oh. Right.
Thanks.
 
does unreal engine 4 work on linux? -.-
i registered and the download crap says "Download for: Windows | Mac"
 
Learn to read.
 
10:20 PM
fuck it, wait for source2 it is
 
U5 targets Friedrichshain
 
A message for @Puppy
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked een WIP is zo'n ding waar kinderen op zitten om elkaar te lanceren
 
10:38 PM
I drank way too much beer. I feel like the hangover has already started :(
 
I already finished the video :p
 
user1804599
@Griwes awesome
 
There's someone playing HearthStone in the background.
 
I think I need to store the words in a separate file... gist.githubusercontent.com/edition-ben/d5a641b8e44b54e5c487/raw/…
 
10:54 PM
@Rapptz Hmm?
 
In the CppCon video.
 
oh, you can see him or you just hear the theme song?
 
ah, hahahaha xD
 
@Blob Worth the weight!
 
10:56 PM
@Rapptz lol
 
He was playing Arena.
 
I suck at Arena :(
 
I don't like HS anymore.
 
well, I'm not good in general, but I'm worse in arena
 
Too mcuh RNG.
So I don't play anymore.
 
10:57 PM
@Rapptz *you never liked HS
 
It was passable back then.
i.e. I could play it
 
@Rapptz top deck=top kek
 
wait luc plays HS o.o
dat guy has fun?
 
My friends and I call it RNGStone now.
 
Is it because the cards have RNG effects or just because luck of the draw is a significant factor?
 
10:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes they have rng effects
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The cards themselves are full of RNG.
 
Yep.
 
@Nooble :)
fair enough
 
11:01 PM
 
for example
haha
 
Yeah that's right.
That card is that bad.
HAD TO BE LINKED TWICE.
 
Multiplayer is common?
 
It's only two player.
 
Oh. "Enemy" is a opposing creature?
 
11:03 PM
yeah
 
Random enemy is either a minion on the board or the other player
 
or your opponent directly.
it's overpowered, random, and stupid
 
there's no reason not to play this card
it's a tank
 
Do they have mechanisms to fix the metagame?
 
11:04 PM
well theyve changed cards in the past
 
Mighty Blizzard patches!
 
if thats what you mean
 
You can silence the card, i.e. nullify its effects
but then that means you have an 8/8 beast that can attack
if your HP is <8 then you're basically hoping you draw something good though.
more than usual anyway
 
user1804599
So many terrible C++ questions.
 
Caveat miser
 
11:06 PM
looks up wtf that means
 
I made it up.
 
lol
 
T_T
 
As per analogy to caveat emptor.
 
y u troll me like this
 
11:07 PM
It doesn't make sense though
 
I need help with background-size:cover and aspect-ratio
 
Oh you should ask Robot about your ogonek in VC++ issues
 
can't seem to make it scale corectly
 
@Phreak C++ != CSS
 
11:07 PM
oh
 
And "miser" from "mise"
 
lol thought i was in lounge
Well lol thanks anyways
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh they changed the Gatherer?
 
Quite some time ago now.
They also broke new comments.
And seems that fixing them is not their top priority, lol.
 
Meanings 1 to 3 seemed very appropriate here.
 
11:10 PM
I wanted to try out MTGO at some point, and I'm ashamed to admit I was put off by the awful UI
 
Did they change it recently?
 
0
A: Effect of subscripting the this pointer

Lightness Races in OrbitFirst, you need to recall that subscripting on a pointer is essentially syntactical sugar designed to make it easier to operate with arrays. Perversely, it achieves that by performing arithmetic on pointers to elements of such arrays. So, given int array[3], and a pointer int* ptr = &array[0], p...

upboats plz
 
I really want a binary right-associative operator I can overload that's not an assignment
 
My elevator is broken.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is there a wizard in the building? (I hope someone reads The Dresden Files)
which reminds me, im still mad at Syfy for cancelling the TV adaptation
MTGO
vs MTG on steam:
 
user1804599
11:19 PM
I am bored.
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
I don't want to wait.
 
Is this about the fancy effects?
 
user1804599
Effects are captured by monads.
 
11:20 PM
No, that's just icing on the cake, the cards look better (and are easier to read) and the UI doesn't look like its from Windows 3.11
 
I think it's clean and functional.
 
user1804599
Clean is functional.
 
11:35 PM
Cool.
 
@StackedCrooked What you did there, I saw it.
 
Read somewhere:
> I'm getting drunk on distilled Schadenfreude right now.
I like this.
I think I'm gonna save it somewhere for later use.
 
@Borgleader GUILTY
Do I need any extra libs for the sprintf command? — PDF 6 mins ago
 
libsprint obviously
 
11:50 PM
> A: [Hey club members, how about a game?] How does 8pm EST / 1am UTC sound?
B: Tonight? Bring it.
A: Fo shizzles. Let's get some hype going people.
A: Probably make it a pubic game, not a lot of warning for a club game. Unless there is objecting.
B: The only reason I'm here at this time is because I am not getting a pubic game tonight.
 
:D
 
any recommendation for a good torrent client for android?
 
what on earth would you run android for on your NAS
 
i just want to download some movies on my phone ;_;
 
evidently
 
11:54 PM
linux distributions*
not movies
i wouldn't pirate movies.. haha
 
> Want a 3D printed selfie? There’s an app for that
> > Gee. I wonder if they would do other body parts
> > > --and, larger than life.
nah. he pirates linux

on a phone that runs it
 

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