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@StackedCrooked wtf
 
@StackedCrooked as opposed to "random video"
 
It was suggested to me by Youtube.
I thought I'd like to share it with you guys.
It's pretty funny after all.
 
it's small.. does it go over the nipples?
 
...
@StackedCrooked swell, now all of the lounge well get Ellen in their recommendations :(
 
12:13 AM
lol
 
@sehe not if you delete it from your history?
 
oh sweet more uptalk?
:D
It was never a joke, of course
 
Wait why are we now Haskell
 
We aren't. Problem solved
 
@Cinch we were always haskell
 
12:21 AM
@sehe By popular request.
 
By stealth request
 
Ah great, I miscklicked when replying there. :/
 
Unfortunately, now it drowned in the ambient chat traffic
 
12:37 AM
sigh why did we ban the homework tag... it seems like 99% of the C++ questions on SO anymore are
 
We banned the HW tag?
 
@Mgetz the bad thing about it is that they are invariably low-quality, under-researched and these qualities are sponsored by professors stuck in the '80s
@Cinch We banned the HW tag.
 
117
Q: Can we now discourage the use of and burninate the homework tag?

user142852I present to you the following indisputable (depending on your frame of reference) facts: homework is a meta-tag. It describes the status from which the question is being asked, not the content of the question. homework might be factually incorrect - for example, it is possible to ask a basic q...

yes it was burninated
and for probably the right reasons
that said, there are days I wish we could use the tag as a quick entry into the low quality queue
although that has been getting quite full as late
@sehe you mean the ones that teach "C++" that's really a shitty semi-typesafe form of C?
 
those too
the rest is with crummy assignments and restrictions "you have to write your own vector. because"
 
Dude who else is gonna help them
askreddit?
 
12:43 AM
Who else? If not whom?
 
@Cinch the internet called google
 
Yeah. Askreddit, yahoo, expert sexchange etc. already also not-help them
 
99% of the questions they ask are already answered on SO
in many cases for the very assignments they are doing
 
@Mgetz ikr but they still ask
interdumb doesn't help either
 
@Cinch they do and their questions should be closed because they fail to meet the minimum criteria for asking, as that question I linked pointed out
DO YOUR HOMEWORK
 
12:45 AM
@Mgetz true. 98% of the answers is "debug it"
@Cinch precisely. which is why the lack of a hw tag hurts
 
@sehe They don't teach debugging to beginners
Which is why prog classes fail
I only recently learned how to debug with gdb
 
actually it's the mark of a true programmer
 
After 1 year of independent learning
 
is to figure that out
 
@Mgetz lol
 
12:46 AM
even if it's just printf debugging
 
I never debugged much. I hate it. It's a poor tool.
MUCH better is to create simple testers
@Mgetz ^ related
 
@sehe "debugging is a poor tool" what?
 
@Cinch the system I work on every day has no debuggers, if I want to debug code all I have are asserts
dead serious
 
@Mgetz Oh are you embedded?
 
it's also a really shitty java clone
so be had you have a debugger at all
 
12:48 AM
@Cinch it's an extremely inefficient method. More often than not, there is so much hard-to-get-at scattered context info that you'd be very very smart to actually diagnose a problem that way.
 
@Cinch I wish... no worse
 
I mean, beyond "Oh oopsie, that variable gets overwritten there"
In which case the debugger should never even enter the picture.
 
@sehe I’m the opposite.
 
I agree with sehe :|
I rarely use an actual debugger
 
@Mgetz I don't understand
 
12:50 AM
@LucDanton surprised. It gets a lot worse with generic code
 
@sehe But how else are you supposed to find access bugs or memory leaks
 
@Cinch I customize for companies, I work in a system I loath, but it pays and I'll survive until I can move to mobile
 
That's closely related to the unwieldiness of compiler messages from within template instantiations
 
@sehe Yeah, sprinkling volatile to recompile and then have the debugger tell me what’s in the variables misses the point of starting the debugger in the first place :/ Still, I find the tool invaluable for checking program state.
 
eh... they are long but usually not that misunderstandable these days
 
12:52 AM
@Cinch analysis tools. The thing is, you don't find these anyways, there is no general tool to do that. so, hoping to find it using a debugger is like hoping to see a wrong pixel in a movie by looking at the still images one-by-one.
Oh, I find it invaluable too!
I just hate it for it's ineffeciency
 
I don’t know what compares to begin with :s
 
First -> Do not cast the return value of malloc(), and did you ask your self how does top determine the memory usage for a process? — iharob 3 hours ago
 
@sehe uh but what about valgrind
 
lol, better to just not use malloc
 
@Cinch Yes. Out of all debugging, valgrind leads the majority of debugger entries for me
 
12:54 AM
@sehe one of the reasons i switched to linux as my programming environment
i have yet to use it though
 
@sehe It always reports that everything is fine and dandy for me.
 
@iharob Yes, I am using a c++ compiler because this is actually C++ code, sry for the confusion. — a3mlord 3 hours ago
 
@Cinch I still code on windows but debug on linux. I like VS as an editor
 
@LucDanton Oh yeah. See above:
> there is no general tool to do that
 
2 mins ago, by Luc Danton
I don’t know what compares to begin with :s
What is it you do do?
 
12:57 AM
I tend to make state loggable/printable (serializable state machines are a fine habit). Unit tests/integration tests with adhoc logging (yes that's basically printf debugging)
 
@sehe idk what you're talking about
 
Only as a last resort I fire up the debugger.
> (yes that's basically printf debugging)
^ for you
 
i mean printf debugging is fine
but it's the same as setting a breakpoint and then using a print command
and i can also trace the stack
but it's perfect fine to not use it if you simply can't use it
 
And I use the debugger as a highly targeted device. You don't often see me add breakpoints. It's probably my brain limitations, but I can't track more than 2 breakpoints and having more than 1 I usually disable the one I don't immediately wait for, because otherwise I just get confused
 
1:00 AM
Adding more breakpoints doesn’t make the debugger run better :)
 
Well. This is what I gather from what I've seen coworkers doing: they'd just plant a few breakpoints here and there and "see what happens". You could just write me off after the second breakpoint.
 
@sehe or we could use a visual debugger
 
I prefer to wite out program flow on paper, sometimes
@Cinch What is that?
 
@sehe Code::Blocks has something like that
It's helpful when I used it
 
I mean VS has nifty "thread visualization" - I like that.
 
1:02 AM
I used Code::Blocks to step through and create debugging points with 1 click
it was helpful
 
The best part is: it has little to do with local states. It's a picture of what threads are "where". It supposedly shines with task-based parallelism (but I haven't used it for that)
@Cinch Doesn't really answer the question?
@Cinch You mean, it's a debugger, then
 
@sehe yeah, just with a GUI
it increases the ease of use
 
Really makes no difference. All my debugging experience I was relating is from VS/Eclipse
 
@sehe oh, well, idk then
i've never used VS
and Eclipse sucks for me because it cannot correctly figure out dependencies and I have to keep refreshing and recaching and it gets really tiring
Like, "I FIXED THAT ALREADY" nope error error error
 
I don't do C++ in Eclipse
 
1:04 AM
@sehe You should try it, it's terribad
 
I have tried it :)
 
IDK why anyone uses Eclipse for C++
To me even Code::Blocks is superior
 
Because it exists and it's free
 
I went away from Code::Blocks because it wasn't attuned to Python or Lua
I wanted a cross-language IDE
I suppose Sublime might do that but i'm poor
 
Vim
 
1:05 AM
^
 
@Blob Vim?
 
@Cinch Vim.
 
No, I know vim
 
It's just it doesn't seem viable for me with my current aptitude with just vi
 
1:06 AM
@Cinch You know Vim?
lol :)
 
@Cinch Don't worry about Vi
just use vim
 
@Mgetz I have read that post and I believe that I have followed it. I am asking for help in comprehending a problem that I have been assigned. I have stated that I have coded a solution that works but I am not sure if it meets the requirements of the assignment. I have asked for clarification on the question to make sure that I am writing the correct code for the problem. If this were work I would be in the business analysts office asking for requirement clarifications. — Guyute 3 mins ago
 
Just mocking the "let repeat everything with a question mark" thing?
 
I'm thinking this question is Off topic
or at least a better fit for programmers
 
@Blob What's so good about Vim? Tell me five reasons do to it
 
1:08 AM
Sorry, I can think of only one:
1. It doesn't suck as much as everything else.
 
@Blob Then I'm not switching
Give me real reasons, you fool
O.O
 
STOP we are not getting into religious wars in the lounge
 
@Cinch Other other 4 reasons are: because there's really no need to reconsider for every task you are going to perform
@Cinch That's perfect.
 
and I say this as a member of the cult of vim
 
@Cinch You don't want them
 
1:10 AM
@Mgetz But seriously why should I use vim over something like Geany on Linux
I'm perfectly fine editing in a GUI environment that can also pull up multiple files at once
 
@Mgetz Hmm? Either I'm reading a different chat or you might be over sensitive to certain subjects
 
@Cinch tmux
 
I compile and debug using the command line anyways
 
@Cinch No reason. Unless you like it
 
I like Vim + tmux
 
1:10 AM
@sehe nah it's just an age old war and at some point someone will bring up emacs
at that point it's just a lost cause
 
Emacs!
At your service
 
I hear emacs might better than vim for programming
Or it seems that way
 
@Cinch try both for a week; pick whatever
 
@Mgetz (you just did that yourself, now)
 
@Blob No I don't have a week to try out vi
 
1:11 AM
@Cinch vim, not vi.
 
I'm a college engineering major who don't got no tikme
aint nobody got time for that
Yeah I know kiddo
 
Frankly, in 4 years of non-stop lounging I have never seen anyone defend/praise Emacs - publicly.
Except ZoidlobnokSlupikfold
(and potentially 1 other person modest enough to not brag about it)
 
@Cinch kiddo? How old are you? =/
 
@sehe I know, it's like having a meta discussion about godwin's law, you can't discuss it without it inevitably satisfying the law itself.
 
@Borgleader 17
It's a joke.
 
1:13 AM
@Mgetz I didn't know Godwin was synonymous to Hitler
 
and we just hit godwin's law
proving my point
 
@Cinch If you haven't got time in college, you will never have the time
 
oh jeez... i have to do text detection now T_T
 
@sehe I'm joking
 
Elune help me
 
1:13 AM
SIgh.
What I mean is that I need real reasons to switch
It's the reason why some banks are still on COBOL
Because they don't need to and don't fix what ain't broke
It's the reason why AutoLISP still works for surveyors
 
@Cinch actually COBOL on mainframes scales amazingly well
 
@Mgetz on the contrary. You literally brought up emacs yourself, and you didn't bring up Hitler (whereas you claimed it was virtually impossible to mention Godwin without "committing Godwin").
So, you proved yourself wrong, and I made it stand out more accutely by actually committing Godwin
 
If what you have works, don't switch. If it doesn't work, you can afford to try out some editors for a week.
 
@sehe so do we now have a godwin paradox?
 
6 mins ago, by sehe
@Cinch You don't want them
@Cinch Precisely.
 
1:15 AM
COBOL, Hitler, Godwin.. WTF?
 
No but I would LIKE reasons to switch
apparently people have nice gains for Vim
I want to know why
 
I want reasons to give you reasons to switch.
 
@Mgetz Nope. A paradox is when there is a seeming contradiction. In this case we just had a false claim (or an over-simplification, if you want to put it mildly)
 
Imma goin' bed - you are all strange..
 
@LucDanton Because vim is a cult?
 
1:17 AM
It’s not, so that doesn’t apply.
 
@MartinJames you're just now realizing this? or are you just now sobering up enough?
 
@LucDanton vim worship is close though :)
 
@Mgetz The sobering will hae to wait till tomorrow.
 
Use whatever editor you like.
 
Heresy!
2
7 mins ago, by sehe
@Cinch No reason. Unless you like it
 
1:18 AM
Honestly I've never found a perfect editor, each editor has its own perks
 
@Mgetz What's vim's?
 
I want Vim-style motions/commands that compose for editing text, and I wouldn’t mind a content-aware editor to navigate/munge my files. But that doesn’t seem to be here.
 
@Cinch very good plugin and syntax highlighting system without coming with too much overhead out of the box
 
I'm not a power-user. Here are my personal reasons for using Vim:
1. I don't need to wait for the editor to open.
2. I can edit a file *fast*.
3. With tmux, I can edit multiple files *fast*.
Honestly, I can't imagine living without some of Vim's features.
 
I like the fact that Vim practically "programs" edits on the fly. You don't "move cursor", "delete characters", "hold shift while moving the cursor some more" etc.
 
1:20 AM
@Blob All 3 are doable from Geany already
I need the features you like
 
@Blob funny you should mention that, emacs users would say the same thing because they basically live in emacs
 
No one is going to help you.
 
@sehe That reminds me, did I ask you already if you know of helpful ways to manipulate items of a e.g. comma-separated list? I move function arguments a lot and I feel there could be better ways do to it.
 
Try it out yourself and see if you enjoy it.
 
@LucDanton R#/C++ is promising IMO
 
1:21 AM
If you don't like it use another editor.
 
@Cinch that wouldn't be possible in this space. best i can do is mention some simple/common ones, but you could just google that anyways.
 
@LucDanton That's a hairy one indeed. Calls for a script, really. I usually patch my way out with f<Space>, f,, d<n>e/p etc. but it's suboptimal
 
@sehe Who are you tell me what I don't want?
 
Until you convince anyone that you're even mildly interested...
@Cinch I'm your surrogate conscience there then, apparently
 
@sehe I am mildly interested, I switched to Linux to understand the more hacker-y style of programming and to get more usage of more "programmer-y" tools?
That line being arbitrary and yet focused at the same time
As in I wanted to learn why Linux is used or why these tools are better
and for the most part I've been satisfied
it's just I don't understand the vim craze, i use vim
But I've stopped because it's more efficient to use Geany right now
 
1:25 AM
@Cinch ok, sounds recognizable :S
 
@sehe In visual mode? Because cf, eating the comma is suboptimal.
 
I want to understand how people are fast in vim but I can't really do this alone
 
@Cinch Ok. Speak to you in a few years :)
@LucDanton Yeah, visual only if I cannot trivally predict the motions (I'm not keen on d2e except in the most predictable contexts, like (foo, bar, qux)
 
It sounds like there's no reason for you to switch.
 
@Blob You don't get it, do you?
 
1:27 AM
@Cinch Nope.
 
I am never satisfied with my speed because there is a way that is more efficient
Therefore, I want better answers for my own problems all the time
 
@Cinch There's some neat Vim script vids and possibly some on YT that you could abuse as a proxy for a real programmer
 
@sehe any of these you like?
or actually use?
 
AH. That's the sign.
You will be using Vim in 5 year's time
 
@sehe Haha, I suppose I could try that. I have more Foo&& foo than Foo const& foo or worse.
 
1:28 AM
@Cinch no. I don't like vids. I just know some exist. Lemme try to remember the set of vids that I most recently encountered that weren't awful
 
I've never needed to rearrange function parameters en masse but I can imagine how to write a plug-in to do so.
 
btw it is time to say the daily prayer
I need to face Japan, bow and say
"LIVE CUP NOODLE, BREATHE CUP NOODLE"
done.
 
@Rapptz X-separated lists appear everywhere. It’s not just parameters, but also arguments in function calls, {}-list elements, etc.
 
@LucDanton that would usually lead me to start on a space before, e.g. cursor at [^]: (Foo&& qux,[^] std::vector<Bar>::const_iterator& bar, int flags = funny::shizzle), and then eg. dt,' with e.g.%%P`
 
it's kinda hard to do generically tbh
e.g. foo(bar(1, 2, 3), 10)
 
1:33 AM
If I could di<whatevs>/p like I can diw/p for words, is my point.
 
or int foo(my_template<int, float> x, int y)
 
I also use vi< a lot with template argument lists, viW quite a lot for "fuzzy" selection (requires proper whitespace habits)
@LucDanton I think there might be a script for this kind of motion. FWIW I wrote the beginning of something like this as an SO answer once, I think... searching
 
@sehe ooo I had overlooked t!
@Rapptz Yeah that one is a big, big problem.
 
here perhaps ttp://stackoverflow.com/questions/7292052/vim-select-inside-dots/7292271#7292271
 
In fact I think it’s template lists that I tweak the most—and it nests all the time, with EnableIf etc.
 
1:35 AM
yup.. not easy.
 
Not if you’re using Emacs, or so I’m told.
 
@Rapptz that one for switch? vf>f,d, %%i,p and finish cs() (using surround.vim to remove excess whitespace) /cc @LucDanton
 
My surround is broken atm :s I need to set the bindings. Which I have no clue how to do.
 
Well, %lx zaps the space as well
 
What’s with the percentage signs btw?
 
1:38 AM
there's this rich guy who likes to donate money to CS GO pro players who stream
and he donated $15k to one of them in one go
and I'm like whaat that's the price of a car
 
@LucDanton A lazy way to navigate matching parens/brackets/... vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/motion.html#%
 
@AlexM. what? that's the price of 3 cars.
 
@sehe :help was not its usual, well, helpful.
 
or at least 3 of the ones my family has
 
@LucDanton yeah, % expands to current buffer name in command line
@LucDanton % is a lifesaver though. Very nice with #if/#else/#endif too
 
1:40 AM
Oh I use it all the time lol, %% to bring you to the closest encloser thing?
8 mins ago, by sehe
@LucDanton that would usually lead me to start on a space before, e.g. cursor at [^]: (Foo&& qux,[^] std::vector<Bar>::const_iterator& bar, int flags = funny::shizzle), and then eg. dt,' with e.g.%%P`
 
Yes. I use c%/d%/y% way more often
 
Did Morkdown ate this message? I really can’t grokk beyond dt,
Oh, %% only works on the line (unless on the delimiter itself of course). Figures.
 
@LucDanton Seems I failed. I switched plans too :S So, start on the preceding ,, then dt,%%P
 
yup
 
@LucDanton Yeah, it works outside the block though, in which case it scans forward for matching pairs. This is awesome for yanking foo(asd,asd,asd) all at once (y%)
 
1:44 AM
Block?
@sehe ooo I’ve needed that, too!
 
I can't imagine using vim without it
it's a shame that <> aren't treated in the same way. Good thing that uniform initialization is all set already (foo {1,2,3} "suits" % just fine)
 
I've been wanting an "expand selection" thing for <> instead of ()/[]/{}
 
The sort of thing you think for a second, then realise it’ll be hopelessly useless given comparisons etc. :Þ
 
@LucDanton yeah, I know. I've not fixed any of it. This is the part where we admit Vim isn't perfect, and doesn't need to be.
 
Is stuff like di< stock or does it come from surround? I don’t recall.
 
1:48 AM
@Rapptz Me too. There's a question on SO about it. And I'm seen in the comments vouching for it. Even considering jumping in. But I probably never will
@LucDanton stock, which is surprising because % doesn't do <>
 
That and surround (when I had it working) do help a bit.
 
you guys ever get really mad when debugging stuff and litter your code with std::cout << "[swear words]" << std::endl everywhere to find out what the problem is
 
Indeed!
 
Allman or K&R?
 
@Pris Nope.
@Cinch Yes
 
1:49 AM
@Pris std::cout no, swearing yes.
 
I'm beginning to like K&R better right now because my Allman code looks ugly
 
@LucDanton hahaha
 
auto volatile fuck_off = thing_i_want_to_see_in_the_debugger; sometimes
 
I do both styles. Depending on the type of code, I prefer the "brevity" or the "spaceousness"
 
Its a bad habit. I get paranoid that I've left some angry stuff in the code when pushing it
 
1:50 AM
eh I see your point
 
south park anyone?
 
@Steve Hey Steve, long time no see.
 
@Steve i used to watch it.. before the damn ads-every-5-mins switch
 
@LucDanton int foo(my_template<int, float, std::scoped_allocator_adaptor<custom_allocator<std::pair<int, float> > > > x, int y) with that, you can do va<oaw to select the whole typeid (assuming the cursor starting in the outer <>)
 
How are you doing?
/cc @AlexM.
 
1:52 AM
@blob ccloud.us/tv heheh
try it
 
what is this wizardry :o
 
@Jefffrey I'm a bit dizzy after 7 hours of CS
 
^O, `` etc. are also life saving
@LucDanton It's vim o.O
 
Don’t think I understand how Visual mode connects with a/i lol
 
any of you try the new unreal tournament
 
1:53 AM
In visual mode, o takes the cursor to the opposite end of the selection. Highly underrated that
 
That is, never thought to make the link between visual and motions.
 
@Pris not yet
 
@LucDanton TBH I use a/i quite liberally/intuitively. I'm not sure I do fully understand
 
So many times I said to myself 'oh no, I started visual selection at the wrong spot! now I’m missing a piece at one end!'
 
@LucDanton Wow. Again, I don't know how to Vim without that
> Highly underrated that
Indeed
I'd love a "retreat to previous selection" too, though. This is my resharper/Eclipse JDT showing
 
1:55 AM
@sehe I like motions, but I don’t think I’m very visually-minded—regardless of Vim.
 
ctrl + u in ST
before I knew it existed it'd make me kinda upset to mess up
 
@LucDanton Seems to me that "but" is highly redundant there
@Rapptz Yeah. Loved that too
 
I don’t follow.
@sehe What’s that?
 
C-U in SublimeText has the expand/shrink selection capability
 
@Pris try Toxikk if you like UT
it's in early access but it gets frequent updates
 
1:58 AM
@LucDanton The best is R#: C-w will select surrounding expression, repeat C-w to grow to enclosing expression, parameter list or block scope. C-W retreats to the previously selected subexpression (shrinking selection back)
I've not seen anything better. Eclipse has a similar thing with S-A-Up/Down
 
it was updated yesterday to include huge maps with vehicles, it's basically UT 2004 2
it's also pretty
 
@AlexM. I've heard of Toxikk. I think there's another 'indie' arena shooter (reflex?) or something as well.
 
@sehe oic
 
I'm scared that if I install a game I'll just waste all my time playing it though... don't have much self control lol. Especially UT, I used to play that way too much as a kid
 

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