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12:00 AM
Is it more like a public discussion and progress report or is it separated groups that need to be productive?
 
The latter, AFAICT
 
Not been there. But heard several loungers report
 
oY.
 
@jaggedSpire sup
 
12:00 AM
@VermillionAzure Some of both, but a lot more time broken up into smaller meetings.
 
if you pass 3 vectors by reference to a function (they're to be added) how can the addition be accomplished without a copy being created? Surely there must be at least 1 new vector that is accumulating the sum that can be moved for the return ... const reference parameters
 
@JerryCoffin I guess I shouldn't go then
 
@Jaden underspecified, next
3
 
@VermillionAzure suuup
 
And considering the amount of proposals they have to handle, they ought to be productive.
 
12:01 AM
@Jaden Simple, the individual solutions can simply be placed into the individual members instead of creating a new container entirely
If I can do a = a + b; then I can do the same thing for individual arrays
 
@VermillionAzure missing the mark. const& doesn't allow what you describe
 
but the 3 vectors are passed by const reference, I cannot modify them
 
Then make a new vector and stop crying tears.
 
@elyse ...I thought this was going to be a Friday link even though it's Monday. :( You have scarred me mentally, congratulations.
 
Just write the code, don't sweat it (also, likely std::vector is not what you want for 3 params that need to have same capacity)
 
12:02 AM
@sehe Hey weird question. Can you reach farther in a piano with your left hand than your right?
 
@VermillionAzure he did. How else would I have known
 
@ThePhD its not about the real answer, I am trying to decipher where this book is correct and where it is misleading
 
@Nooble reach in?
 
@sehe psychic polar bear powers?
 
I don't think my left hand is any bigger but I can do a tenth on it.
 
12:03 AM
@sehe you're right
 
Not too well with my right hand though.
 
@jaggedSpire comprehension :)
 
@sehe Like in keys.
 
:26114278 He did say "... const reference parameters", but out of context, so it was hard to guess what it meant.
 
I'm too stoopid to automatically correct the text book as I read it.
fuck me.
 
12:04 AM
@Nooble practice. Left hand (1) stretches more (2) has more time to reach span (3) has somewhat heavier keyweight on most instruments
@Nooble :) I was picturing you reaching into the piano
 
inb4 sum is the sum of the original numbers into 1 variable.
 
@Jaden Then the answer is most likely yes. However, copy elision (?) might alleviate the possibility of having to copy the result out of the return value???
 
@Jaden Your place?
 
@sehe Hehe.
 
@VermillionAzure Answering with confused question doesn't really help
 
12:05 AM
@sehe Well does it
 
I'm going to sleep. See yer latou!
 
@sehe I hold a piano up to my chin and play it as an 88-string violin. Takes a long bow (and talk about a heavy left hand...)
 
@Morwenn farewell!
 
Lateu.
 
@JerryCoffin What are you doing, playing with your hair?
@Morwenn bye
 
12:05 AM
@VermillionAzure but I'm not leaving!
 
@JerryCoffin and one hell of a curvy bridge not to get cluster bowing for free
 
Have fun :p
 
It is supposed to be a simple example on 'moving containers'
 
@sehe Gah my left hand can reach 5mm more.
What is this...
 
@Jaden So... C++11 then?
 
12:07 AM
@sehe I considered saying that, but figured as much as you obviously know that mentioning it would almost be insulting your intelligence.
 
@Jaden You fail at providing context. Handwavey descriptions like that make it impossible to help
@Nooble practice.
 
@Morwenn G'night.
 
God I'm too poor to have a piano QQ
 
@JerryCoffin teehee
 
Is it not that simple? if you cannot modify any of 3 vectors to produce the sum of the 3, don't you have to make a new one?
 
12:08 AM
I'm so poor I need to play the piano to make money.
Oh wait
 
@Jaden you mean like a truck?
 
@Jaden Question is: what is?!
 
@sehe Dude all my money go to college
 
I kid
 
@Morwenn Good night :)
 
12:08 AM
@Jaden Yes, I think so unless the compiler has some optimization magic
 
@ThePhD <3
 
@VermillionAzure huh
 
Borgleader! :D
How was your day?
 
It was ok
 
@VermillionAzure in a text book, example.
 
12:09 AM
yours?
 
I slept through most of it. <_>
 
@Jaden wtf does this even mean
 
I'm working on my Critical Listening report.
 
@Jaden GTFO. Either name the textbook+section+question number or show the text.
 
Yes, it's most likely going to have to create a new copy to store the new vector's result
 
12:09 AM
I settled on listening to this:
 
This is the same book that said std::std and calls functions in an example with no previous reference to the function (create in head while reading text)
 
@Jaden You make no sense
 
@VermillionAzure you do?! It's devoid of musical meaning
The colour coding is a nice touch I guess.
 
@VermillionAzure Then you guys will be best friends. :P
 
12:11 AM
@VermillionAzure don't worry, I hate me too.
 
But the fact that a trill is showing as "business" is not really helpful
 
@ElimGarak Hahahaha ☑ rekt ☐ not rekt
 
@Jaden WTFBBQ?!? Is it soooo hard to name the title of a book?
 
@ElimGarak But the quantization of the Higgs-Frankel boson during the computation of the gradient's descent derivative is ambiguous and undefined on the domain of the ring of gratuitous behavior as per allowed, vis a vis, by the compiler. This is why Postgres is better than MongoDB.
 
@sehe Hi bear, how was your day? :)
 
12:12 AM
it was ok. I guess. Tryin' to remember what I did
Too little
 
a tour of c++ by Bjarne
 
@Jaden That doesn't sound like a beginner's book?
 
@Jaden Probably Bjarne from Valhalla Hills /cc @Xeo
 
@VermillionAzure Ok. The visualization of harmonies in the divertimenti is nice
 
@sehe Looks like polar bear can mind-music harder than this one can.
 
12:13 AM
@sehe No this is at least a cm.
 
Gradient splotches abscond to you, friend.
2
 
@Nooble cm?
 
Bjarne Stroustrup
 
@Jaden YES WE KNOW
 
@VermillionAzure starred for poetry
@Jaden now you're talking
@VermillionAzure It is
 
12:14 AM
@elyse Nope. But I'm not surprised.
 
@Jaden page, example?
 
51 4.6.2
 
looking
 
@Mysticial Hello
 
@Borgleader Hi
 
12:16 AM
sup
hows you?
 
@Jaden f doesn't return anything
It does on page 52 (different function)
 
i still need to brush my teeth
 
@sehe I'm still missing the point then. I'll keep reading.
 
void f(const Vector& x, const Vector& y, const Vector& z)   {
    Vector r;
    // ...
    r = x+y+z;
    // ...
}
it's just a function that does many things (//...) and, along the way, calculates a Vector which it stores in a local variable r. Nothing more
 
@sehe well at least you helped someone out
 
12:19 AM
@Jaden I think the subtle point being discussed is that x+y+z is evaluated as (x+y)+z
@Borgleader It's just, I don't hoard what I don't eat
 
@sehe Yes.
 
IDGI
@Jaden I think the subtle point being discussed is that x+y+z is evaluated as (x+y)+z. (x+y) could be a costly temporary (depending on a lot of factors, mainly compiler smarts)
 
btw ARM instruction set is sooo cool
 
that would be copying a Vector at least twice (one for each use of the + operator). If a Vector is large.... The most embarrassing part is that res in operator+() is never used again after the copy.... its operator+() that it is talking about. so, using a move constructor gets down to 0 moving res out of the operator+()?
 
> Commercial during Christian's solo. Commercial during Haynes' solo. You got one more chance not to fuck up, YouTube!
+1
 
12:23 AM
@Jaden I think if you define the operator+() correctly, the compiler should be able to optimize
 
@Jaden "gets down to 0" what does that mean?!
 
number of times copying a Vector
 
@Jaden Ah. You mean, that move semantics could remove copies. Well, yeah, obviously.
 
Oh, man ARM's NEON (target iOS)... Additional implementation of the math library necessary, this is going to take a while.
 
@sehe ...except return values are kind of a poor way to demonstrate it, since [N]RVO often eliminated all the copying even before rvalue references were invented (and understanding when each applies can be tricky).
 
12:31 AM
@sehe Centimeter?
 
@JerryCoffin Indeed: goo.gl/RB47zD /cc @Jaden
 
Huh, 32 128-bit registers. I think I'm going to enjoy this.
 
@Nooble I lost track
 
I wish I could have named member initialization in C++.
That'd be grand...
 
@sehe Which head?
 
12:36 AM
All three
 
Yay, if you're in my sector, stop by for a byte to eat.
badum tss
 
@Borgleader hi
 
@sehe that looks unrelated to the concept I'm struggling to wrap my brain around.
 
__m1571c14l
 
@Jaden I know. I was just pointing out that you don't actually need move semantics here, because compilers are smart enough as soon as inlining is an option.
 
12:40 AM
@Mysticial how are you?
 
19 mins ago, by sehe
@Jaden I think the subtle point being discussed is that x+y+z is evaluated as (x+y)+z. (x+y) could be a costly temporary (depending on a lot of factors, mainly compiler smarts)
The "smarts" partr
 
@Jaden Have you tried botany?
 
hello love birds.
 
sup, idiot
 
@villageidiot I already do
 
12:42 AM
so i'm messing with something akin to generative/automatic programming
and i wonder
 
do wonder. Real wonder is best appreciated in silence
2
 
@Borgleader Busy
 
@Mysticial Still like your job? :)
 
appreciated by whom
 
12:43 AM
@Borgleader yeah
 
cool, cool
 
I am kinda expecting Borgleader to plink Mysticial right about now with "So, uhm, you wanna go out with me?" And Mysticial is playing like all hard to get. :P
 
@ElimGarak Tree surgeon was suggested before.
 
anyway never mind that. i just wonder. i have random code, in the form of a sequence of integers: [2 0 1 0 0] etc.
 
@villageidiot there's only one subject who has access
 
12:44 AM
where 0 means a terminal, 1 means +, 2 means *, the binary operators.
 
Oooooh, makes me wonder...
 
what i want is to translate that to a function.
 
@ElimGarak He didn't play hard to get on our date.
 
@ElimGarak wat
 
12:45 AM
@villageidiot bwahahahahaha. You're basically wondering how to implement a compiler when you have the scanner done
 
@Nooble You're too young to understand <3
 
It is sooo supportive when people who have never written a line of code tell you that you're awesome (at coding)
 
Good luck. Dragon book
 
@villageidiot Sounds like a bad way of dealing with it.
 
so, [2 0 1 0 0] would mean mul(id(), add(id(), id()))
 
12:45 AM
Wait. Is it a token stream or a VM bytecode?
 
@sehe almost.. i want that inside my c++ code
 
Jul 6 '14 at 18:58, by Borgleader
@AaronKyleKilleen Public service announcement
 
i want to generate random code. random functions.
don't why. i'm messing around. for fun.
 
So you're using C++ because.... ?
 
but i'm stuck a little
 
12:46 AM
I'd ask why but I don't really care :/
 
Well, pull some bytes from /dev/random and jump to that.
2
 
Python, Ruby, Javascript, everything comes with eval() builtin
@LucDanton Not enough security implications
 
Pull some bytes from /dev/random, make a short prayer, and jump to that.
 
Now we're talking
 
@LucDanton I tried that, but the bandwidth was too low--it sometimes took whole microseconds before it crashed.
 
12:48 AM
@villageidiot I would suggest you attempt a stack-based evaluator.
 
Iff that is a bytecode and not, actually, a tokenstream source representation
 
@sehe i'm not trying to get anything done other than satisfaction, sexual or otherwise, from writing a program that generates a random function, then calls it.
 
Then, do so!
 
@sehe "Compile" to RPN, then stack-based evaluation.
Now that's an interesting thought. Have a C++ compiler generate real Forth as its output...
 
so, scanning is easy. 0? terminal. 1? +. 2? multiply. done.
 
12:50 AM
@villageidiot Whatever floats your int.
 
what i want now is, given the sequence, get a function.
 
Beh. The question nagged at me so much I had to send g-truc (the Unity Graphics guy) an e-mail about it.
 
@ThePhD Hm?
 
Why HAVEN'T anyone asked for Multiple Index Buffers?
 
@villageidiot That’s at least interesting to attempt if you want to figure out why that’s not really feasible in a satisfactory manner. Otherwise, go with an evaluator.
 
12:52 AM
@ThePhD whaddy mean?
 
@ElimGarak Stealing that.
 
here's what i have:

auto const id = [](auto const& a) { return [=] { return a; }; };
auto const add = [](auto const& a, auto const& b) { return [=] { return a() + b(); }; };
 
@Nooble No need--pretty sharp already.
 
mul is similar
 
@Borgleader Allow vertex buffers to be of different sizes, and have an index buffer (in OpenGL terms) map to one or more vertex attributes.
 
12:53 AM
1
Q: Strange behavior of std::is_nothrow_destructible

dragonrootThe following code triggers static_assert even though I don't think it should: #include <type_traits> template< typename T > struct Tmp { ~Tmp() noexcept( std::is_nothrow_destructible< T >::value ) {} }; struct Foo; struct Bar { // Comment this out for the problem to go away Tmp< Foo > ...

 
@ThePhD Pretty sure the hardware doesnt work that way
 
@Borgleader Right, but I still have to ask.
 
/cc @ElimGarak
 
Sure the hardware doesn't work that way. :P
 
There's some model data where having multiple index buffers would give HUGE size reductions.
 
12:54 AM
then i can do in c++ mul(add(id(4), id(2)), id(5));
but i wonder how to translate a vector of ints to that ...
 
@villageidiot why are you nesting lambdas...
actually nvm
i dont wanna know
 
Ask yourself: what would (roughly speaking) the type of your function be?
You take in your ints, then what?
 
come to think of it, i could more easily define a function class and use dynamic polymorpgism
 
speaking of fun stuff
 
but i wonder if i can do that without inerhtiace
 
12:55 AM
:D
 
@VermillionAzure IDGI.
 
@ElimGarak wut
 
There is like 3 pages of no :D
Looking for that starred quote :D
 
Which starred quote?
 
12:56 AM
Sep 30 at 19:33, by thecoshman
ThePhD doing simple things hard since 2011
 
@LucDanton yeah, that's the issue. lambdas type are unique. it's hard to compose lambdas in any way other than statically. maybe it's not even possible to compose lambdas dynamically?
 
q_q
 
oh maybe with function pointers
 
Too big for onebox. :D
 
12:57 AM
@villageidiot Sure it is (but it's ugly).
 
@villageidiot That’s too much in the details. Larger picture.
 
but then i'd need them all to have the same signature..
 
@ThePhD :)
 
@villageidiot Now you know why you want them to all work with a stack (and deposit their results back on the stack when they're done).
 
I don't always do things the hard way!!
 
12:58 AM
Compare magic({ 0 }) with magic({ 2 }) and what you want them to do.
 
no, I've been there too. There was that time I didn't even check if MATLAB had a TVSD graphing function and just made one myself, only to be asked hours later why I hadn't just used tvsd(signal3)
or whatever it was
 
@ThePhD .i presume this is aimed at me :-S :3
 
@villageidiot N.. No...
 
1:00 AM
@jaggedSpire the disappointment
 
@ThePhD catface he's making a catface at you
 
@jaggedSpire q_q stahp I don't do things the hard way!
Also all catfaces are inherently evil.
 
@Borgleader That little ear flop!
 
ikr :3
 
sigh. bjarne stroustrup had a talk just now about avoiding inheritance. i'm all in, but, maybe, sometimes ... not ><
 
1:01 AM
:3
 
They're multiplying. ;~;
 
@villageidiot #include <functional>
 
struct expression { /* ... */ };
struct mul : expression { ...

std::vector<expression*> v..
 
@Borgleader He's going to try and rip his guts out when the camera goes off.
 
1:03 AM
@jaggedSpire between std::function or boost::any i see little difference from having a vtable
 
@villageidiot Use more pointers.
 
@villageidiot That one is a toss-up between the two styles, depends what trade-off you want. (And there’s so, so much literature on the topic.)
 
@ThePhD I think MSL is the only one that can satisfy something like that with the device address space attribute which allows you to chase freeform buffers directly in the vertex shader. On the GPU, it will launch the required amount of "threads" to satisfy the number of indices or vertices (depending on what you select). Then you can transform the indices to index into varying vertex buffers (up to 31 of them).
 
@villageidiot and? Are you really concerned about the few microseconds it takes to go through that layer of indirection?
 
Did someone say GPU
 
1:04 AM
But it would end up nasty, regardless. :P All buffers are basically blobs of data and you can get to them, index them at will. (No need to specify the equivalent of an input layout, although it is a choice). But it will have consequences on performance.
 
There's only a fixed number of expressions you want, so variant<mul, add, ...>
 
it's not the performance. it's the brainfuck. i like correctness and reasonability (hey i just coined term! high five)
 
http://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/aa4ac0199d10e9d0
Make it random: http://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/2d93b7c2f5cc2944

Go forth and sin no more
 
@ElimGarak I do want an InputLayout for index buffers though. That'd be cool. ;~;
 
@ThePhD How can this kitty be evil?
 
1:06 AM
@jaggedSpire There's long claws deeper inside the box. It's just waiting for you to reach in and screw up.
 
@villageidiot down that path lies madness
 
@ThePhD :3
 
@jaggedSpire That's what makes them really evil: they cover it up so well until it's too late.
 
@GregorMcGregor hji there
 
@ElimGarak True, but doesn't the fact that you have to specify how big your indices are already kind of like a simplified input_layout ?
 
1:07 AM
@jaggedSpire i want to hug it :3
 
I suppose you could interpret it that way. Those sweet, sweet eyes with paws like a bear trap
@Borgleader concur'd
 
I wouldn't mind having a version that's not quite as powerful where 1 index buffer must map directly to one vertex buffer (if you do use multiple), but the saaaviiiings.
 
the pain is worth that soft fur
no pain no gain
 
@ThePhD Yup, just the minimal amount of information. Funny thing is, MSL does many really interesting and powerful things (with the responsibility that comes with that power), such a shame it has only 2 really programmable stages (vert/frag). You can even specify in the code how to treat all the bound render targets, whether to clear, load, store them between the different stages. Bandwidth savings and shit.
 
@ElimGarak So now we just need SetIndexLayout( index_element_size* sizes, size_t count ) :D
 
1:10 AM
@ElimGarak I just want Vulkan to get here already T_T
 
Shouldn't be far off, tho. I am curious how will Apple treat it. Because the welcome OpenGL had on OS X was not really warm.
 
@sehe Thank you good sire. Reading now.
 
Now that I think about it, ZFS is only good for scrubs.
 
@LucDanton you must really enjoy it then
 
OpenGL ES might be more welcome... I don't know if Vulkan's going to have different profiles for Mobile devices?
 
1:13 AM
Definitely, Metal is segmented quite a bit even though it starts with 5s and whatever iPad equivalent. And that's just PowerVR hardware.
 
Vulkan ES... oh boi.
 
They said the lowest Vulkan would go is OpenGL E.S. 3.0, right?
 
@LucDanton dat pun
I'm a scrub
 
OpenGL ES 3.0 excludes quite a number of low-end devices, I think.
IIRC, only like 20% of the Android market is in that bracket?
 
1:15 AM
Well, yeah, Vulkan will support approximately the same devices that are on par with iPhone 5s and up. There are requirements behind the next gen APIs that have only recently been fulfilled, most notably virtual memory on GPUs, no more runtime driver running around and patching (2011+).
 
i think std::cout << i << std::flush is equivalent to std::clog << i
 
Hot diggity
41ish percent
That's a lot more of the market than I thought
41ish percent will have Vulkan support right off the bat (since they promised 3.0 ES support).
 
@ThePhD thats 4.1 percent
oh ... combined
 
pat pat
Tired? :D
 
yyes T_T
in my defense, 3.1 is at 4.1%
 
1:17 AM
It's an easy gotcha.
Sneaky little decimal.
 
It is worth mentioning that feature set support and Vulkan support are different beasts. Worst case scenario for feature sets might be ES 3.0, but definitely not all GPUs with 3.0 ES support. Just like DirectX 12 works with DX11 feature set on relatively modern hardware at worst, meaning that not all FL11_0 hardware is compatible (terrascale VLIW architecture comes to mind with HD6990), even though it is FL11_0 compatible.
 
@villageidiot I think not, but I'm too lazy to prove it
 
@sehe the only thing is that not all functions have the same signatures. a terminal is kind of unary, whereas + is binary. but then, maybe it's easier to just force all functions to do have the same signatures.
 
@villageidiot Yeah. That's your job: homogenize this. Usual trick: have all functions take a stack/context and take variable numbers of arguments from that
 
@sehe i think std::clog is an unbufferred std::cout. like std::cerr but for stdout.
 
1:19 AM
57 secs ago, by sehe
@villageidiot I think not, but I'm too lazy to prove it
 
I wish you could just program to any API and then it would just throw an exception when you did something illegal to let you know.
 
> The global objects std::clog and std::wclog control output to a stream buffer of implementation-defined type (derived from std::streambuf), associated with the standard C output stream stderr, but, unlike std::cerr/std::wcerr, these streams are not automatically flushed and not automatically tie()'d with cout.
So it is expressly buffered and not even tied with stdout (which means it will print out-of-order depending on the implementation)
 
Don't std::flush if you std::clog the toilet!
 
sup, grog
 
@villageidiot No, it's buffered, and connected to stderr.
 
1:22 AM
Hi Domagpu
 
@sehe i have no idea what that means. to me it means "this can be anything, and it's streamable"
 
@GregorMcGregor just use std::clogf to force it
@villageidiot Focus on the real problem instead :)
 
bufferred stderr. that's useless.
 
@sehe wow didn't even know that collided
 
you're right
sry
 
1:23 AM
Me niether. Google just informed me
 
i have this problem of add where i OH LOOK A UNICYCLE
 
While std::clogf is great and all, I'll stick with fisting.
 
Oct 2 at 1:52, by sehe
Anyways. I'm failing at going to bed.
 
that'd be a first
 
@villageidiot See you around. Maybe post on SO when you have more material (I made up way too much there)
 
1:25 AM
@sehe G'night.
 
@sehe night, bby
 
yeah, thanks!
 
Night, @sehe
Also, CMake is weird
Why don't they just generate x64 sub-projects as part of a single project's configuration, to let the user easily switch between the two.
 
nite zeehee
 
i will be going as well, night all
@Xeo you should teach your cats to play D&D
 
1:31 AM
Niiight.
 
@Borgleader G'night.
 
@Borgleader bai <3
 
borgnite
 
@Borgleader night!
 
woah, TIL that stack overflow has chat rooms!
 
1:35 AM
@sehe night
@DaveVoyles today I learned that you learned today that stack overflow has chat rooms on a stack overflow chat room
 
This is neat, I need to hop in here more often. I found it on the sidebar of SO
 
@DaveVoyles It's actually kind of more messy than neat (but we're mostly a bunch of teenagers, at least virtually) so many of us prefer it that way.
 
stack overflow has chat rooms?
 
@GregorMcGregor No, not really.
 
1:53 AM
I wouldn't call this a chat room.
It's more like the fire room. You come here to get flamed.
 
With my mixtape.
 
Hey guys! I am learning C++ so I have novice questions :). How would I go about storing input of an unknown length into an array (is this even possible?)?
character array*
 
@Ethan You don't.
 
So it cant be done?
 
@Ethan So now it's a C question.
 
1:59 AM
?
 
@Ethan Nope, just set a limit.
@Ethan You're using char* when you should be using std::string.
 

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