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3:00 PM
doppelgangnam style
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can have unlimited orgasms with zero condoms!
 
dat cover
 
user1804599
You have to be very brave in order to use Clojure, indeed.
 
user1804599
For Clojure is a nightmare prelude.
 
user406009
What don't you like about Clojure?
 
3:02 PM
it really captures what programming feels like
 
user406009
The dynamic typing?
 
user1804599
@Lalaland it is a mess
 
user1804599
@Lalaland also
 
user406009
Yeah, some parts are a mess.
 
user406009
In particular, nil vs empty sequence.
 
3:03 PM
@orlp I had it the other way around. I thought there were unlimited reasons to hate the Microsoft compiler. But apparently everyone hates the IDE as well. :P:P:P
 
@Mysticial I find visual studio the lesser evil of the two
@Mysticial basically, if you could extract the debugger component of visual studio to a standalone tool, and made it cross-platform, I would use it
 
I also hate the compiler. But it does compile a lot faster than ICC. So I still use it for development.
 
cool little programming puzzle
 
But the quality of the code-generation has been steadily degrading with every release since VS2012.
They don't care about performance anymore.
 
@Mysticial I'm still really amazed you never use MinGW though
also, LLVM needs to get it shit together
and get a linker to work
so they can work on windows
 
3:07 PM
@Mysticial They're too busy failing to catch up with C++.
 
@orlp I did back in 2006. I haven't had the need since then. Also, until MinGW gets their shit together with AVX, I can't use it for Windows.
 
@Mysticial "Also, until MinGW gets their shit together with AVX, I can't use it for Windows." what are you referring to?
 
user406009
@orlp have both robots go right. One one hits a parachute make it speed up.
 
@Lalaland you know
you could not spoil it for everyone else
 
Ell
3:08 PM
I always forget the use cases for dynamic typing
 
that'd be awesome
 
The only Windows compiler that cares about performance is ICC.
 
L.A. Woman damn this album is good
 
user406009
@Ell there are useful situations that you can't statically type.
 
I'm not even talking about fancy loop optimizations. Just SIMD support and decent register allocation - which only ICC seems to be able to do... GCC is okay, but not quite as good as ICC. But not for Windows.
 
user1804599
3:10 PM
Ugh, PEBKAC.
 
user406009
For instance, update-in in clojure.
 
Ell
@Lalaland I'm looking for examples of this
update-in. hmm
 
user1804599
Lenses solve the same problem and better and can be type checked.
 
@Mysticial runs without segfault for me
 
Ell
idk what update-in is
 
3:10 PM
@Mysticial Clang too, soon enough ;)
 
user1804599
Also there's no reason why update-in couldn't be type checked. You can implement it in C++ without problems.
 
Ell
yeah that looks like it could be statically typed fine
 
Can someone run svn export http://unicode.org/repos/cldr/tags/release-1-0 somefolder and zip it up for me?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sec
@R.MartinhoFernandes where to upload?
 
Anywhere public?
 
3:12 PM
yeah, make a suggestion
 
sbi
@AndyProwl That person with the white jacket/shirt in front of you, is that your stalker or the person you're cheating on? :-/
 
@orlp Then either you're not testing something complicated enough, or you (or the compiler) is using unaligned accesses.
 
user1804599
 
@orlp Dropbox? It's what I used before.
 
@sbi The one reflected in the glasses you mean? It's a tourist
 
3:13 PM
@sbi Random tourist taking a picture of him, me, and wilx.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes docs.google.com/…
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah wait not sure if I zipped into a folder
 
@orlp Every month or so I see an SO question about AVX stack-alignment on MinGW. Admittedly, I haven't tested myself. Given the number of reports that it still isn't fixed, I'm not going to waste my time setting up MinGW - especially since GCC still isn't as good as ICC.
 
3:14 PM
@Mysticial I ran the test that came with the bug report
 
user406009
@R.MartinhoFernandes is this for your work on the c++ Unicode proposal? :P
 
Ell
yeah it's in a folder actually should be fine
 
user1804599
Unic++ode. haha get it funny
 
@Lalaland Nah. I'm not making any proposals. I'd join a SG if there was one, but that's it.
 
@orlp If you think it's fixed then go post something on that bug saying that it's fixed.
 
3:16 PM
This is for ogonek.
 
Though I won't be surprised if they're just using unaligned accesses to mask the problem.
 
@Mysticial I don't know enough
to say that
 
user1804599
:O Ogonek isn't ABANDONED?
 
sbi
Never abandon such a project. it might, one day, get you a job to have it around. :)
 
user406009
Yeah, but then you end up with all sorts of shitty code on your GitHub page.
 
3:20 PM
@sbi One of the interviewers on Friday said that he really liked it.
Also, still haven't heard back from them :S
 
God I drank like 2 vodka shots and I still feel them
Fucking garbage
 
user1804599
Eh ok so
 
user406009
I should probably just delete my account at this point. It's a lost cause. Burn it to the ground.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know. :)
 
user1804599
apparently Lua strings are just byte strings.
 
user406009
3:22 PM
@Elyse doesn't that lead to Unicode safety issues?
 
user1804599
define "Unicode safety"
 
user1804599
it doesn't do anything with Unicode
 
@sbi Anything else you know ;)?
 
sbi
So you spilled the beans here, already?
 
user406009
Meaning you can easily split multi byte Unicode characters.
 
3:22 PM
No.
 
Be safe, don't Unicode
 
Use UTF-32.
 
@Morwenn Won't fix the real issue vOv
 
user1804599
 
Don't use Lua also
 
user1804599
3:23 PM
@Morwenn No, I'll interpret the strings as UTF-8 encodings.
 
Come on, sarcasm :o
 
user1804599
I have all control over creating all non-ASCII strings, so it's fine.
 
lol
Said someone who raves about automatic bug detection
 
user1804599
What?
 
user1804599
Lua has very few automatic bug detection facilities.
 
3:25 PM
@sbi I mentioned it, but no names.
 
this annoys me
 
user1804599
Wait, why are you unplonked
2
 
me?
there's always these posts and rants about how bytes aren't codepoints and codepoints aren't characters
 
OK, 17C in UK. Wots 'goin on?
 
user1804599
No, not you, you fool. You are awesome.
 
3:26 PM
then who?
is it someone I do have plonked?
I didn't see anything
 
user1804599
Cat.
 
Ell
@MartinJames speak for yourself ;)
 
Oh, I wasn't aware people plonked cat
 
Ell
oh wait
lol it's 16C apparently here
but it bloody hell doesn't feel like it
 
user1804599
I probably misclicked "show posts" as "don't ignore this user" recently.
 
3:27 PM
@orlp Cat plonking is a well-known passtime around these parts.
 
@MartinJames heh
ass-time
 
user406009
Cat is often the main voice of sanity here though ...
 
user1804599
No, not really.
 
either way, there's always these posts and rants about how bytes aren't codepoints and codepoints aren't characters, but I never actually hear a solution of what a string type should be
 
It should be a string type
 
user1804599
3:28 PM
@orlp string type should be, for one, not iterable.
 
@orlp Ask a C programmer - they know all about strings.
 
@Elyse not iterable?
 
It doesn't really matter how it's implemented, it's a matter of interface
 
surely you mean indexable
 
It can be both just fine
 
user1804599
3:28 PM
@orlp Congratulations! You are literate!
 
user1804599
@orlp No, I mean not iterable, although indeed indexing makes no sense either.
 
Sure it does
 
@Elyse Speak for yourself.
 
user1804599
There is no natural set of elements iteration should yield. "Characters" whatever that may be? Code units? Code points? Graphemes? Words?
 
@Elyse so how do you do useful things with this type of yours
 
user406009
3:29 PM
How about being iterable in multiple ways?
 
For example, how do you compute the shared prefix of two strings?
 
Oh, fuck unicode. Unicode Hitler.
 
@Lalaland Cat is like the weatherman who proudly claimed a perfect record: "I warned this area about every storm it received for more than 20 years!" (carefully ignoring the fact that he'd predicted storms all the time, whether they happened or not).
10
 
user1804599
@orlp You get an iterable "view", e.g. a code point view, a grapheme view, etc.
 
@Elyse so it is iterable, it just doesn't have a default choice
 
3:30 PM
Irrelevant interface details ahoy
 
user1804599
Instead of str.begin() and str.end() you'd have str.code_points.begin() and str.code_points.end(), and str.graphemes.begin() and str.graphemes.end(), etc.
 
you're favouring explicit iteration design choices over a default
but it's still iterable
 
user1804599
No, the views are iterable.
 
Ell
@orlp you can't do mystr.begin()
 
@Elyse I was just about to comment on that, but your edit was a big improvement.
 
Ell
3:31 PM
mystr isn't iterable
 
Codepoints being the default is fine
 
Ell
you can do code_points(mystr).begin() or w/e
 
user1804599
Picking a default only facilitates the oblivious.
 
user1804599
There is no sensible default.
 
Sure there is
 
user1804599
3:32 PM
Unless there is one in your DSL, but C++ isn't a DSL.
 
@Elyse "There is none...unless there is one." Yeah, I guess that probably about covers it.
 
Ven
mmh, I don't know shit about template variadics. Can't I write something like template<typename... Ts> void fn() { foo<Ts>()...; }?
 
Code points is the lowest level that is useful, so it makes sense as a default: one can build any of the other options on top of it.
 
user1804599
@Ven template<typename... Ts> void fn() { auto x{foo<Ts>()...}; (void)x; } or something. Ask @Xeo.
 
3:35 PM
@Ven template<typename... Ts> void fn() { foo<Ts...>(); }
 
@Ven struct swallow { template<typename... Ts> swallow(Ts &&...) {} }; template<typename... Ts> void fn() { swallow{ (foo<Ts>(), 0)... }; }
 
would be my guess
 
I hope we all agree that UTF-16 is retarded (unless you're like japanese), but UTF8 or UTF32 to store the strings?
 
@rubenvb Not the same thing
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree it's the most useful low-level view. I don't like it being implicit; I prefer an explicit function to extract the code points.
 
Ven
3:35 PM
@rubenvb no, here you're just passing all the arguments
 
@orlp Doesn't matter
 
Ah yes I see
 
@CatPlusPlus it does if you provide indexing for code points (or your code point view)
 
Ven
@Griwes guess that's ml's ignore? thanks :)
 
Fuck Friday evening
 
3:36 PM
@orlp No it doesn't
 
user1804599
Making the strings directly iterable just makes it too easy to forget to think about it.
 
You can do it fine with either
 
@orlp Indexing is generally useless anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus UTF-32 is O(1) indexing, UTF-8 is O(n)
 
Ven
ah, but I assign in this expr, so I can't pass this as a parameter, since eval order is undefined.
 
3:36 PM
@orlp No it's not
 
Ven
I know @Elyse wrote something to workaround this for Mill...
 
user1804599
@orlp Use a deque-like structure. :p
 
@CatPlusPlus enlighten me
 
user1804599
@Ven Yeah, I remember.
 
@orlp Yes, and both of those data are useless and irrelevant when you asked about "store the strings".
 
user1804599
3:37 PM
@Ven The code is gone.
 
Ell
why is UTF-16 so terrible, I still don't know
ignore me I'll google it
 
Or maybe, it's still whatever
 
Ven
@Elyse still got it? you deleted mill
aw, and I don't have Mill on this computer... grr
 
If you care about it more than memory overhead then pick UTF-32
 
user1804599
@Ven I got it!
 
3:37 PM
@orlp ...unless you build an index as you store the data. Building the index is O(n), but storing the data is already O(n), so it only changes the constant (and not by much in most cases).
 
@orlp Describe a scenario where that matters.
 
Ven
@Elyse ohh!
 
user1804599
This is for function application, though.
 
Ven
3:39 PM
@Elyse good thing lightness forked your project ;)
 
@CatPlusPlus Most scenarios where memory overhead actually matters will benefit more from compression than UTF-8 (and both encodings compress equally well)
IOW, UTF-8 is a terrible compression algorithm. Stop using it.
 
Yeah probably
 
@Elyse what's the difference?
 
@Ell It's really a leftover from UCS-2--early Unicode that attempted to store everything in 16-bit code points. It uses a minimum of 16 bits per code point, but still requires you to jump through the same hoops as UTF-8 to find code points.
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok "show posts" lasts until you refresh the page.
 
user1804599
3:40 PM
it doesn't save the change
 
neat
 
@Elyse why'd you delete mill
 
user1804599
Note that it's bugged.
 
The thing that annoys me the most about UTF-16 is that it leaked onto the other two encodings.
 
user1804599
Changing any plonking status of anyone will reset it.
 
user1804599
3:41 PM
e.g. if I click "show posts" on Griwes, then unplonk Cat, it'll hide the posts of Griwes again
 
UTF-16 continues in use almost exclusively because a couple of fairly popular systems (e.g., Windows and Java) selected UCS-2 before it died, so they patched something together to give them a path forward.
 
Ell
@JerryCoffin Hmm. I thought windows and java still used UCS-2
 
Hasn't been true since... well, roughly since UTF-16 exists.
 
Ell
I see
 
user1804599
 
Java never used UCS-2, I think.
 
user1804599
all these memories
 
It's from around the same time as UTF-16.
ED A0 7F? Valid UTF-8 sequence. ED A0 80? Invalid UTF-8 sequence.
:S
 
user1804599
    switch (*it++) {
#include "../build/instruction_decode.ipp"
        default:
            check(false);
            assert(false);
    }
 
user1804599
ahhh so awesome :D
 
user1804599
I should export parts of Mill to a separate repositories. Such as thread pool, fibers, memcpy_cast, integer parsing, etc.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, it did. The Microsoft guys at least had the halfway reasonable excuse that when they selected UCS-2, people were still arguing that it was going to be adequate forever. By the time Java chose it, essentially everybody knew UCS-2 was dead, but they used it anyway. They didn't upgrade Java to UTF-16 until ~2004.
 
Ven
@Elyse lol, still got that code :D
 
@Elyse why'd you delete Mill though?
 
user1804599
I moved it to a different GH organisation, rewrote it in Scala and JS, deleted the old code.
 
3:48 PM
@orlp Because 30 minutes has passed
 
Ven
you forgot the part you rewrite it in Elixir...
 
user1804599
Oh right, Dexter, awful.
 
Ven
that's why one shouldn't contribute to @Elyse's project :P.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, you're right, shit.
 
user1804599
But in retrospect the C++ code was really nice.
 
Ven
3:49 PM
'tis why I kept it
 
user1804599
POD
 
Ven
Pod, not POD.
POD is Perl 6's
 
user1804599
I don't care.
 
Ven
wait no, I'm full of shit. it's the opposite
2
 
user1804599
3:51 PM
Seem to have lost the fibonacci and fizzbuzz examples though.
 
@orlp They have. It works (haven't tested it though, but someone has been working on that and he said it works now).
 
Please do not try dissuading votes by putting irrelevant disclaimers, people will vote how they want based on the content of your question and are not at all obligated to explain their vote in either direction. — Kyle Kanos 23 hours ago
so this happens not just on SO
 
@Elyse Dexter?
 
@Ven Of course not. It's Perl 5's just as much
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Yes it's a VM I wrote in Elixir.
 
Ven
3:54 PM
@sehe as I said later, I got the order wrong. POD is Perl 5's, Pod is 6's
 
user1804599
That turned Vlinder bytecode into an Erlang AST.
 
@Ven TIL
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Tinnitus. ISTR we talked about his. Has no doctor been able to help you with this?
 
user1804599
It kinda worked but the code base was horrible.
 
Ven
@sehe lol, like you care about Perl 6. :P
 
3:54 PM
I do
 
user1804599
Purl Sux
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It really is quite inexplicable--by the time Java was released, Unicode 2.0 (which killed UCS-2) was nearly finished. Anybody paying attention at all already knew UCS-2 was dead, but they used it anyway. This is one of the (many) reasons I'm more than half serious when I accuse them of intentionally crippling Java.
 
Incompetence happens
Very very often
 
Ven
@sehe Now that's surprising ;-).
 
It is trying to invoke the cc compiler which is not installed/cannot be found on your platform. Not really programming-related.. — Eugene Sh. 1 min ago
 
Ven
3:58 PM
what's not surprising is that I'm retarded. That didn't change :). Thanks.
 
> Xen patches 7-year-old bug that shattered hypervisor security
ho ho ho
 
@Ven It's hardly surprising considering the mess that perl5 is. And the interesting features perl6 has
 
Ven
Alright, well, fair enough. If you have any question anyway...:P
 
@CatPlusPlus It does, but in this case quite a few people (including some on the Unicode committee, if memory serves) pointed the problem out to them--and they completely ignored all the warnings.
 

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