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user784668
8:00 PM
Probably should've just used Vector, but MutableByteArray# was the first thing I though of.
 
Heh, that’s weird (that Data.Array has no mutable unboxed variant). Well, there’s always Vector
 
user784668
@LucDanton There's IOUArray and STUArray, but they're specific to their respective monads.
 
That’s not nice :/ Also not the place where I would expect them.
See, with Data.Vector.Unboxed.Mutable you know what you’re getting.
 
Do you guys think the compiler optimises inheritance if there are no virtual member functions?
 
@LucDanton how so?
 
8:05 PM
Or does a v-table have to be built regardless?
 
Define optimise
Non virtual methods don't go through vtable regardless
 
user784668
@Rapptz No virtual methods means no v-table.
 
user784668
Virtual methods mean v-table.
 
I figured
 
user784668
So if you have no virtuals, there's no v-table.
 
8:07 PM
Barring virtual inheritance. (Or does that count as having virtuals? :Þ)
 
I seem to recall older compilers had issues with inheriting empty classes.
Not sure why though.
 
user784668
@Rapptz That's empty base optimization, not related to virtuals.
 
@Rapptz msvc still has issues with that
 
user784668
@LucDanton Made the element last, thanks.
 
@LucDanton It does.
 
8:08 PM
I wonder if graph database is fast enough to be able to act as a backend for a MUD
 
the compiler has to look up virtual base offsets through the vtable.
no virtual inheritance, no virtual functions -> no vtable.
this is part of the Standard's definition for std::is_polymorphic, I think.
 
@Puppy virtual inheritance of stateless classes still generates a vtable?
 
yes.
you need the virtual base offsets to make the address-uniquing work.
also dynamic_cast/RTTI.
 
Compilers can also optimize calls to not use the vtable in cases where the type of the target is known at compile time (and I suppose they might optimize out the vtable itself if all calls for a particular class were identifiable that way, but I've never tried to check on that).
 
nope.
 
8:11 PM
@JerryCoffin devirtualization, right?
 
You don't know if someone else won't be calling vmethods
 
devirtualizing a particular call isn't that hard.
but proving no virtual calls, ever, throughout the whole program?
 
@TemplateRex Sounds like the right name for it, yeah.
 
not gonna be easy.
 
@Puppy Doesn’t look like it, hence the joke. Keep in mind that the Standard already gives any leeway to the implementation as soon as you have enough accessibility clauses.
 
8:12 PM
@Puppy I believe that can only be done as a link-time optimization.
 
I was asking because of the discussion @LucDanton @JerryCoffin and I had a few days ago.
 
@JerryCoffin I believe that neither GCC nor Clang have the power to do that at link-time.
 
Not even then if you're building a shared library
 
LLVM IR certainly cannot express such semantics.
not sure about GIMPLE.
 
And I decided to check right now out of curiosity and I can't get the compiler to not completely remove my class so I guess it's okay..
 
user784668
8:14 PM
Haskell is so awesome, it makes me forget C++.
 
Your Class Sucks
 
@Puppy I only know of one linker that could probably have done it, and it's now thoroughly obsolete. In the MS-DOS days, there was a linker named Optlink that did things like that pretty routinely (much more important when memory was so constrained).
 
user784668
I remember thinking today "how do I represent type families in C++?".
 
@TemplateRex I had to dig older code to refresh my memory. In my case the pain was self-inflicted to an extent, as I was experimenting with peeking (e.g. a filtering range needs to inspect an element before it can decide to either yield or skip it). And the pain is here either for bidirectional (C++-style) or double-ended (D/Rust style), so my remark was irrelevant.
 
lolf uninstalling Bcl NuGet package from a project prompts for VS restart
 
user3010322
8:16 PM
+1
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus At least it's not Windows restart.
 
Don't give them ideas
 
@Rapptz You can still pass a reference/pointer to the C base class.
 
@LucDanton although the sentinel stuff also solves some peeking that are in current input iterators
 
I'm not particularly excited for Niebler ranges.
 
8:18 PM
@Rapptz what's missing?
 
@TemplateRex Yeah, my experimentation was trying to set precise guarantees on how many times an element may be read and so on, which are kinda nice to provide to the users.
 
@LucDanton Yeah. At the end of the day the assembly output for the reinterpret cast and the inheritance in my case is exactly the same.
barring UB
 
Personally I think that double-ended ranges are an improvement over bidirectional iterators, three-legged algorithms be damned.
 
user784668
I wonder how much real work can a Haskell program do without allocating anything.
 
@TemplateRex iunno. I just look at it and go 'meh'.
 
8:22 PM
hmm
just realized my inheriting constructors implementation doesn't construct any of the derived class members.
or other base classes.
 
When I imagine ranges I don't really see Niebler ranges :v
 
no, but they're an interesting way to achieve compatibility with iterators, something that no other design can get.
 
@Puppy Easy cure: that's not a bug, it's a feature. "If a derived class defines a member, you get undefined behavior." :-)
 
Not really excited or interested.
 
lol
oh, it also won't set the vtable pointer.
 
8:25 PM
on the bright side, D is trying to provide C++ calling compatibility, templates and all
 
@Rapptz What if you cover an eye to not see the sentinels?
 
yeah, I read on the Clang mailing list that they're trying to steal my thunder
 
@Rapptz Unexciting, but I'd guess that backward compatibility with at least some range capabilities is likely to be seen as a winner by quite a few people.
 
^to my great chagrin
 
they'll have a bunch of fun, though.
 
8:27 PM
@JerryCoffin backward compatibility is the big anchor keeping the oil tanker inside the harbor
 
the non-LDC implementation will find it hilarious to try and make that work.
and the LDC implementation will run up against all the same problems I have, but they're two and a half years of development down.
 
sorry my dutch
and the tanker following, just flowed out of my fingers that way :-)
 
@LucDanton It's not really the sentinel that bugs me.
 
@TemplateRex "tanker anker"does flow nicely.
 
it's the massive categorisation that he's taken himself to have
there are.. facades, sentinels, adaptors, views..
 
8:29 PM
@TemplateRex Many, however, would probably think "tankard ale" flows even better!
 
@Rapptz you are onto something, it's also tied to Concepts, and that is better left to the Stepanovs of the world
@JerryCoffin you, my friend, are a drunkard ;-)
 
user784668
@TemplateRex Nope, that's @MartinJames.
 
it's gotten really bad and I think Niebler is noticing that
This past month has been almost nothing but simplifying the massive categorisation he has
 
If the façades and adaptors are true to their names, they are conveniences and not substantial to the design of ranges. (Which is not to say that you can’t complain about them, I would relegate them to the back though.)
 
@Rapptz yes, the circling I mentioned earlier, it's worrying
 
8:31 PM
@LucDanton I like how you wrote ç in the middle of an entirely english sentence
(ok its at the beginning, bite me =/)
 
@TemplateRex Former drunkard, unfortunately.
 
@JerryCoffin hey man, sorry. good luck with staying sober
 
@TemplateRex Oh, it's not really a problem. It's just that having gout I can pretty much plan on being in pain when/if I drink much, so I rarely do any more. Any more than a glass of wine with supper every week or two will have me running for my medication (which I really don't like).
 
@LucDanton It's overwhelming.
 
Ell
8:36 PM
Evening all
 
@JerryCoffin Similar issue here- medication and alcohol don't mix.
hmm
 
Ell
I just had the 6 least fulfilling hours of my life
 
should I even allow importing assignment operators from a base class?
 
@Rapptz Some of the things that appear there already exist, but we don’t have Standard concepts in library form nowadays. (Also, we don’t have concepts.) I don’t find it worrying. I like a principled approach.
 
@Ell What, you never went to school?
 
Ell
8:39 PM
@Puppy I was learning at school :P
 
huh
excuse me whilst I call the Guiness Book of World Records.
 
@LucDanton I worry a bit that concepts and ranges are being designed by completely separate groups in the committee. Concepts are useful for a lot more than ranges, but ranges really need concepts, and would be an excellent proving ground for the concepts design.
 
@JerryCoffin By that, you imply that ranges are really being designed in the Committee. I've not seen any meaningful movements from the Range subgroup.
 
@Puppy I especially don't like the monday QB-ing by people like Sean Parent. He should write his own proposal or submit his Adobe library
 
meh
 
8:43 PM
@Puppy I'm not sure. My feeling (though I'll admit it's no more than that) is that the stuff on isocpp.org was such a mess they just withdrew, so to speak, and are working on their own.
 
having people point out the holes in an existing design is valuable even if they don't submit one of their own.
 
user3010322
@TemplateRex QBing?
 
@ThePhD quarter-backing
 
@JerryCoffin My experience is that they didn't really commit to it in the first place. It's a mess because they don't take care of it.
 
as in Monday night football, commenting on missed plays
 
user3010322
8:44 PM
I thought Eric Neibler was the one rolling the Canonical Range™ implementation?
 
@JerryCoffin The ranges group was on their own mailing list from the start.
Last message around March when I asked if the list was dead.
 
er, really?
 
user3010322
 
I have Ranges Digest Vol 15 11 in my inbox, dated today.
 
@JerryCoffin andrew sutton is closely working with Eric Niebler, at least from the acknowledgements and Eric's blog discussion
 
8:44 PM
MOAR MARZIPAN
 
@TemplateRex Actually dates back to when Football was all played on Sunday afternoon, then the blowhards spent all day Monday talking about how the actual pros hadn't a clue of how to play the game.
 
@Puppy Oh.
Maybe I unsubscribed when it was silent for months and forgot.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes We started the discussion by mentioning E. Niebler’s efforts, which also happened to rekindle discussion on the ML.
 
there a couple months with less activity, but none with no activity, and August and March were super active.
I got no less than 64 issues in March.
IMO Niebler is the only one with a proposal that could really pass Committee.
 
user3010322
A proposal and an implementation.
 
8:47 PM
@Puppy and there is an unknown level of effort on the damned reflectors, why are they not making this readable to the world?
 
an implementation doesn't really count for much here.
@TemplateRex No idea.
 
user3010322
@TemplateRex There was something about a few proposals about reflector going through favorably on some list, but I couldn't find the actual papers.
 
the Committee has always been pretty insular and isocpp was a failure pretty rapidly.
the only thing it's good for really is posting papers/etc.
 
Ell
isocpp was a failure?
 
are you kidding?
 
user3010322
8:48 PM
The discussion board was.
 
@Puppy so why does it more or less work for Clang, but not for isocpp?
 
it gained the nickname std-asylum since the first day or two.
 
@Puppy In part because the Committee has stupid goals (not to diss Eric’s efforts). I don’t think that moving from (It start, It stop) to (It start, Sentinel stop) really counts as ‘software reuse’.
 
user3010322
Because everyone flocked to it and then began shitposting.
 
@TemplateRex Why does what work for Clang?
 
8:49 PM
@Puppy open mailinglists, no secret reflectors
 
Ell
ohhhhh thats what std-asylum was
 
oh
it works for Clang because they're committed to making it work and put a lot of effort into making it work, and they actually engage with people.
the Committee don't.
 
@Puppy isocpp.org != std-asylum.
 
user3010322
The Committee is also a loose collection of individuals.
 
they open a proposals forum, totally ignore it, and are then surprised when it's filled by ignorant spammers.
 
8:50 PM
The discussion board is older than isocpp.org
 
@TemplateRex I think largely because Clang has enough of a hurdle to keep most of the complete trolls away. Almost any moron can walk in and believe they have a real contribution to make to the standard.
 
@Puppy That’s not exactly it. It’s more of opening to more than just Usenet. But the nonsense has always been here (especially on Usenet).
 
isocpp.org is not a failure
I don't see how it could be
std-proposals isn't ignored either
 
@Rapptz Not as a whole, no. But parts of it are certainly a lot more successful than others.
 
Because Puppy says so, obivously
 
8:52 PM
@JerryCoffin they could make reflectors readable, and writable after some whatever criterion they deem worthy
 
just looking at it right now shows a lot of replies
with a lot of those replies being from people in the committee.
 
C++ is a failure.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not sure what that refers to.
 
let me put it this way
I spent a few months working on my Unicode proposal.
 
@TemplateRex At least in theory, yes. From what I've heard, the reflectors are pretty ancient, and some would rather get away from them completely.
 
8:53 PM
boost also has some trolls
 
then I walked into Bristol and found out two minutes later that the Committee didn't want anything even remotely like my existing design.
I had the same problem with another paper.
 
The Lounge has turned into nerd heaven lately. What happened to talking about random stuff?
 
I wasted a considerable amount of both time and money going to that meeting only to find out that if I'd had two minutes of the Committee's time over email, it could have been saved.
 
@Puppy did you ask access to the reflectors?
 
people want a different design even for their toilet paper
 
8:54 PM
maybe they've changed their tune since then
 
@sehe I want polymorphic toiletpaper.
 
@Rapptz To isocpp.org. The discussion boards haven't done a lot, but publicizing papers, new developments, etc., seems to work pretty well.
 
@sehe hey toilet paper matters!
 
but my experience was that if you were not an existing Committee member with access to the secret reflectors, you didn't get shit.
 
I want the triple layer soft stuff, not the C-style no bounds checking raw stuff ;-)
 
8:55 PM
@TemplateRex Didn't even know they existed until afterwards.
 
@TemplateRex as with all soft wares, and extra layer solves it!
2
 
@TonyTheLion The pendulum swings...
 
@TonyTheLion what's the difference
 
@sehe level of indirection, yessur
 
Eh, A. Krzemieński is the (main) author of the optional papers and AFAICT he requested comments on his proposal, went there, and then it got accepted. I don’t think I noticed his name elsewhere before.
 
Ell
8:57 PM
what are the reflectors?
 
@TemplateRex abstract[,] my ass!
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not sure what the discussion boards have failed at. I mean, yeah, there were a lot of trolls or dumb proposals but it seems like a decent way to get discussion out of your proposal. If that's not what the discussion boards were meant to do then I'm not sure what they are supposed to do.
 
@LucDanton I knew him from blogs
 
@LucDanton Also the std::putf proposal started there. I'm sure there are more.
 
8:58 PM
Oh, didn’t make the connection with akrzemi1 lol.
 
I think the swap operator started there too but it got rejected.
I haven't been there in a long time so I don't know many examples.
 
@Rapptz They failed at a proposal author getting reasonable feedback on his proposal in a reasonable time period.
 
So you think just because they didn't give you the feedback you hoped for that it failed completely?
I don't agree.
 
Argh.
 
it's not a question of not getting the feedback I hoped for, it's a question of not getting the feedback I needed.
 
9:00 PM
@Ell Basically private mailing lists, but running on extremely ancient software.
 
and I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one.
 
so this David Krauss dude who comments on everything on std-asylum (he's Potatoswatter, right?) is he a luny too, or just a Committee-wannabe?
 
when I was at Bristol there were a bunch of people sitting up all night hastily changing their submissions because two minutes into discussion, they pointed something out which he could have addressed beforehand but didn't address because nobody pointed it out.
 
@TemplateRex neither.
 
TIL isocpp.org is a total failure because Puppy didn't get the feedback from the C++ committee that he needed on some proposal of his
@Puppy What's the point of the meetings if you do all the discussion out of them?
 
9:03 PM
@Rapptz I guess it just fell (well) short of my expectations. I guess what I was hoping for was essentially what I got on comp.std.c++ and comp.lang.c++.moderated before the '98 standard, but that may just be an unrealistic expectation.
 
I'm not denying that it could be better.
I just don't think it's a total failure like Puppy implies.
 
nah
I'm going to just ban importing assignment operators.
 
@Ell Good morning to you too :)
 
hm
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit tbh this is a good question
 
9:05 PM
or maybe I can't? I guess I need to handle all the same issues if I want to import constructors.
 
@Rapptz I'd agree that total failure is pretty strong language.
 
@JerryCoffin They sort of in-between, no? What with the lack of moderation, but lesser prevalence of Usenet nutjobs. (I didn’t read the lists during the time you mention however.)
 
@Rapptz I didn't know that bit
 
I do sometimes wonder why the committee meetings take place irl.
 
@Rapptz There's no real reason for it (except that they're a bunch of archaic dinosaurs who can't make open-source work).
it's a waste of time and money, they're too infrequent to do the whole job, and absolutely unnecessary in most cases.
 
9:06 PM
I like the way Python does its things.
the whole PEP thing
seems better than our current model.
 
How?
 
they don't meet irl for starters lol
don't need someone to champion on your paper
 
Yes, except that I mean.
 
that's all there is to it
@Puppy I think the reason for it is because it's the only way to probably get legitimate votes.
I'm not sure
 
@Rapptz Yes, but you only need a couple of meaningful votes per publication cycle.
 
9:09 PM
@LucDanton He has another thread here lol
std::order?!
 
I wonder how ‘guys, stop taking trips to Hawaii at your company’s expense’ would be received by those concerned.
 
^
 
He's really bent over that operator< thing
 
@Rapptz std::in_the_courtroom
 
He's had a couple blog posts about it
 
9:09 PM
@LucDanton they all pay for themselves
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't think it's really a question of all discussion taking place outside them. I do agree with @Puppy, however, that publishing what guidance they can so people will know better than to present proposals that will be rejected out of hand.
 
@Rapptz The whole committee is bent over it.
 
I don't think operator< being lexicographical comparison is a bad thing.
 
@TemplateRex A few do, but certainly not all (and probably not even most).
 
Why would the committee think that?
 
9:10 PM
the problem, I believe, is that std::tuple does something totally batshit insane, or some existing Standard class, and they're arguing over whether it should be consistent with it or correct/useful.
 
@JerryCoffin Herb has written several times it comes out of his own pocket, time and travel
 
> Alisdair and I promised each other to work together on it in order to prevent either of us from procrastinating on it. Guess what, we are both too good at procrastination. [Tony V E]
lol
 
@Rapptz The whole situation is unsatisfactory. Seems kinda premature though, I want concepts first.
 
@TemplateRex Herb is not the entire committee. And I believe even he gets a little help from Microsoft--don't know for sure, but doubt that committee time is charged as vacation.
 
@JerryCoffin but I guess at Herb's salary, it won't really matter
and Bjarne, with his Morgan Stanley gig, is certainly not short on cash
 
9:13 PM
@TemplateRex The expenses, probably not. The time, much more so.
 
right, so
I need to generate a thunk that calls the base constructor for that base, and default_or_NSDMI's everything else.
my first-pass implementation will probably be less buggy than MSVC's.
 
@Puppy The ISO rules do encourage doing the work electronically as much as possible, but also pretty much take for granted that at least some in-person meetings will be needed. iso.org/sites/directives/directives.html#toc_marker-41
 
glad I could weigh in on that.
 
9:26 PM
I don't like folly
 
It's a folly to like suchsame
 
reddit doesn't close anything
 
reddit doesn't allow you to post the same link twice to a single subreddit
Sphinx + rst isn't such a bad way to write manual documentation
 
What is the climate like in this room this afternoon ?
I have a C++ question
 
Ell
@User.1 Tread carefully
 
9:39 PM
I don't have a C++ answer
 
How can I get the register contents of an x64 machine in Visual Studio ?
2010 or 2012 will work
 
It only pretends
 
@User.1 are you handy with soldering iron?
 
Does Visual assembler have the register display capability such as Turbo Debugger had way back when before windows took over ?
Okay, so the answer is "no" ?
 
No you have to go back to Turbo
 
9:43 PM
@User.1 what would you do with it :) it's pretty moot once you get it in C++ because the compiler can change it subsequently
 
Turborotonde.
 
@User.1 Ah. During debugging. Just open the register window...
 
Oh, I'm mixing C++ and ASM, learning how it works
 
It doesn't
 
Where is the register window ?
I mean, where do I click ? I haven't found that
 
9:44 PM
That's a pro question. It's for paying subscribers only
 
Express won't let you see the regs ?
 
lol clicking
 
@User.1 Mmm. Could be. Wouldn't be surprised :|
@User.1 First line:
> The Registers window is available only if address-level debugging is enabled in the Options dialog box, Debugging node.
 
okay, yeah, just clicked, and read, "address-level debugging is enabled in the Options" so, first, I need to find out where that is
Let me go look
 
9:46 PM
You're in luck, our "let-me-google-that-for-you" service is at a reduced rate of 90EUR/hour this month, so, in CEST timezone you can still benefit a further 14 minutes and 24 hours!
 
Still looking for it
 
No. You're typing inane noise into a chat window instead.
 
sehe juste evolved into sehate xD
 
Okay, I found this "...address-level debugging..." which is checked. Okay, so where do I click to open that window ?
 
@User.1 Assuming you mean while debugging, you open the "Registers" window.
 
9:51 PM
You use the keyboard. That always works. Dude. I'm afraid you'll have to figure it out, since it's gonna be somewhere on your screen.
I'm on linux, so if you have any questions about artifacts existing on my screen, fire away
 
Ell
@User.1 I'm sorry but you have run out of credit. In order to continue using this service, please send your credit card details to ttjlgnoe@sharklasers.com
 
insert coin
 
please insert moneys to continue
 
8 mins ago, by sehe
@User.1 Ah. During debugging. Just open the register window...
 
press leave
 
9:52 PM
My credit card number is 7917-5487-3825-9681 Expiration date is 07/13
 
?REDO FROM START
 
@sehe Sorry, catching back up after stepping out for a few minutes.
 
:D
 
YOU LEFT?!?!?!?!
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes--and I'm getting hungry, so soon I'm going to leave again.
 
9:54 PM
He has a pritty BOSS website
 
I click on window, and I don't see "register"
 
It's under Debug/Windows, I bet
 
Go to help menu and type in the menu item you are looking for.
 
€90 riding on this
@PolymorphicPotato you misspelled hell (s/p/l/)
 
Windows telnet client is not very good
 
9:57 PM
Telnet clients can't be very good. Also, not unlikely that you mean windows consoles aren't very ... terminally
 
It supposedly has a key combination to go into command mode, so you can FOR EXAMPLE disconnect, but it doesn't work (of course)
 
@User.1 cvv/type?
 
Usually ^]
 
Yeah it prints it, but it doesn't do anything :v
 
@Puppy come on, our broker will figure that out
 
9:58 PM
Well it does do something in that it's not sent to the server
But
It doesn't do anything else
 
@CatPlusPlus Awesome
 
Killer feature
 
lol
 
Sorry that I brought in sincere questions guys, didn't realize that I was spoiling your fun. Yall go on and keep on playing. Have fun.
 

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