« first day (1267 days earlier)      last day (3682 days later) » 

9:00 PM
 
obligatory
 
@CatPlusPlus people who buy that argue that the things are cheap for enthusiasts
 
@CatPlusPlus lol.
 
and it only costs a fraction of a full train model thing
 
9:00 PM
time to have fun, and by have fun I mean rebuild LLVM.
 
There's not a single review with thumbs up :allears:
And they all have hundreds of hours on record
> 1,423.0 hrs on record
 
@DeadMG I wanted to do the exact same thing today.
Let's have fun together.
 
argh VS how can it be so hard to change the fricking project settings
@Griwes Even more fun after this is building Boost.
I fucking hate that boost build shit
 
Building Boost is literally one command
 
@DeadMG You are reading my mind.
 
user3010322
9:03 PM
._.
 
user3010322
I think I've given up hope.
 
of what?
 
user3010322
Being a programmer.
 
Boost.Build has nice ideas behind it, but the environment is so weird and foreign it's an absolute pain to use
 
@Griwes Need to profile Wide plugin, but Boost and VS2013 don't really mix.
 
9:05 PM
heh
 
lucky enough it built in debug mode the first time around frankly
Operator::~Operator() {
  llvm_unreachable("should never destroy an Operator");
}
lurvely
 
user3010322
A+.
 
God all the memories of bundling libraries to make Windows build not-shit are coming back
Fuck C++ on Windows seriously
 
prefer it to on Unix frankly
 
Why? Dependency management is practically non-existent for C++ on Windows
 
9:10 PM
and I found it to be totally ineffective on Unix, so it's a bit meh for meh there.
 
Even a bad package manager is better than no package manager
 
at least on Windows I don't feel like I have to program the build tools myself, which is what using Unix feels like.
 
guys why am I so bad at assembly?
 
And Portage-like system would be perfect for C++, but centralised C++ repo and non-archaic toolsets will never happen
 
gotta admit that dependency management and building is something I want to lock down for Wide.
 
Xeo
9:16 PM
@DeadMG wtf?
so they're just.. leaking operators?
or are they used in some kinda pool?
 
well, as near as I can tell from some other comments in the file, Operator is a base class, and the derived classes all have unusual construction and destruction semantics.
 
Xeo
so? The destructor still has to run at some point, no?
 
apparently not.
maybe Operator itself is a POD?
 
Xeo
or are they just doing a->destroy(); ::operator delete(&a); or something?
 
@DeadMG lolwat
Is the LLVM source code really this much more insane than I imagined?
 
Xeo
9:19 PM
@DeadMG That doesn't stop a destructor from being run
you have to actually work against the system (like with what I just posted) to make that happen
 
yep, that's what I figure.
@Griwes It's full of crazy shit.
but, well, it's the LLVM source code, so...
and LLVM's ain't even that bad compared to Clang's.
 
Xeo
0
A: C++ compile-time predicate to test if a callable object of type F can be called with an argument of type T

KahlerIsn't what you need all ready on std::function::target ? http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/functional/function/target

the fuck
 
inorite
 
9:34 PM
hmm
why does changing the RTL setting require rebuilding all the object files... :(
 
it changes defines
_DLL or something
 
why do the STL headers care whether they're dynamically or statically linked
 
Xeo
Reasons
 
it's fucking preprocessor definition. you have to rebuild everything if you change it
 
9:53 PM
why is the x86 build of one project trying to refer to the x64 build of another :(
 
Because Fun
 
user1804599
10:24 PM
> bananas don't need to smoke cigarettes to look cool
 
owch
even in Release it seems to take Clang forever to load MSVC's <vector>.
I must have done something wrong cause that's like, 10-20 seconds
 
I wonder why does map even exists.
It's just a specialization for fmap with a list as a functor
 
ah turns out I was still running Debug by accident :P
it's still a bit of a noticable jerk re-analyzing C++ headers with Clang on keypress, though.
incremental re-analysis has gotta start there
 
@Jefffrey The other way around. fmap is a generalisation of map for functors. map was first
 
@CatPlusPlus with "map was first" you mean they defined map first and then later decided to define Functor?
 
10:31 PM
Apparently I remember wrong
Chuck it under "Prelude weirdness"
27
Q: What's the point of map in Haskell, when there is fmap?

Clark GaebelEverywhere I've tried using map, fmap has worked as well. Why did the creators of Haskell feel the need for a map function? Couldn't it just be what is currently known as fmap and fmap could be removed from the language?

 
I don't understand something though.
Why can't we have "major" versions of a language that are allowed not to be backward compatible with older versions?
so that we can make big changes and keep the language fresh?
why do we always have to have the head under the blade of the language's history
it's lame
 
@Jefffrey what would be the difference between a new major version, and an entirely different language?
 
Because it's sorta like migrating to a new language
Look at Python 3
And how slow the uptake is
 
@jalf that it's not entirely different, it's just the old language with some fixes
 
Even though with 2.7 you can write forward-compatible code and make the migration mechanical
 
10:36 PM
@Jefffrey But it's not just the old language because it's not backwards compatible with it.
 
If it's not compatible, you lose code and need more effort to adopt the new version
 
@jalf that's where "with some fixes" comes from
 
@Jefffrey So? How does it differ from just creating a new language which happens to be very inspired by the other one?
 
You really need to identify a critical core flaw to justify a move like that
 
Instead of creating C++2.0, people just created D. How would things have been better if it had been called C++2.0 instead?
People still wouldn't have used it because it's not compatible with the mountains of code they already have.
 
10:38 PM
aside from the fact that frankly it's not very good :P
@jalf Which is why Wide is the winnar :P
 
Ah yes, the language war is over once and for all. Wide won. :)
 
gee gee
 
-4
Q: What Is Your Opinion About My First Indie Game " Delicious War I "?

user44296How Are You? This Is My First Game : For Free Delicious War I: VM For More Informations Please Visit The Link : http://kng-games.blogspot.com/2014/02/delicious-war-i.html The Game Is So Funny Thank You!

 
Yeah, I know it wouldn't be good and well. It would probably be a pain in the ass to migrate too. But at least we wouldn't be stuck with std::vector<bool> forever. Or we wouldn't have all the C non sense.
 
The Game Is So Funny
 
10:40 PM
@Jefffrey That's just defining a new language.
 
lol
 
which is what everybody is doing.
 
@Jefffrey But you're not stuck with vector<bool> forever. YOu can use a different language :p
 
damn I don't have enough rep to downvote
 
@jalf which is even worse to migrate to
 
10:40 PM
If you take C parts from C++ then you're literally creating a new language
 
(Also, it is entirely possibly that vector<bool> gets fixed some day. C++11 contained a handful of breaking changes too. It does happen from time to time
 
@Jefffrey Depends on the language.
any version of C++ that contained the same fixes would be just as painful to migrate to.
 
and then that language will sooner or later screw up again somehow, and people will start another language, and so on...
 
Basically the name doesn't matter
 
of course- that's evolution.
I should hope that languages continue to evolve.
 
10:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus No, you don't get it. Everything would be better if all languages had the same name, and just picked a different version number!
 
Whether you call it C++ 2.0 or Dongs++ the problem remains the same
 
@CatPlusPlus which is migration?
 
There must be some right-wing conspiracy behind this: why UPS trucks don't turn left http://priceonomics.com/why-ups-trucks-dont-turn-left/ (HT @tomstandage)
 
migration, tooling, learning, yeah. What am I going to do with all my legacy code? Will I have to throw away the mature and well-developed toolsets, IDEs, compilers and libraries I've relied on until now? And will I have to learn a new language?
Heck, imagine C++ threw out its "C nonsense" overnight. Sure, the code you write might not miss it, but imagine all the C libraries you would no longer be able to link to and include.
 
@Jefffrey Yes
It makes the new revision basically unhelpful for existing projects
 
10:46 PM
well, you could link to and include them, if the Committee was smart about it :P
 
Do you know of a C++ SSL implementation? I don't. People typically use ones written in C.
 
@jalf That's nonsense
You can have FFI and not be based on C
 
@CatPlusPlus sure, but it would be a lot more complex to use. Calling a C function from C++ is trivial. It is a lot more work to do so from... pretty much any other language
You can't just include the header and call the function
 
Wide can! :P
 
Nah, I'm just providing some depth to the answer. Let the OP decide whether this convenes him/her — sehe 44 secs ago
 
10:47 PM
@DeadMG yay ;)
 
sorry, I'm going to stop interjecting with that, I promise.
 
It's trivial in any good FFI system
 
@DeadMG It's a promise I'm gonna take you up on
 
@jalf Of course not overnight. With a slow but steady process. Something like: "ok guys, you shouldn't use function x" -> few versions later -> "function x is marked as deprecated, but will still work for now and be removed in the future" -> few versions later -> "function x is removed"
 
none of those are anywhere near sufficiently drastic to make a big language change that would actually fix a real problem.
 
10:50 PM
@Jefffrey how would that apply to C source compatibility?
 
versioning a couple library functions is trivial compared to versioning core language features.
 
@Jefffrey You can't do that for fundamental issues
And for non-fundamental issues, it doesn't matter either way
 
phasing out C source compat in that fashion would take centuries.
 
Things like vector<bool> are completely inconsequential
 
@jalf forget C, I'm talking in general (also we all know C compatibility is too important to be removed)
 
10:52 PM
@DeadMG I'd say it's just not possible, period
Or the result would be even more of a clusterfuck
 
@Jefffrey You started out talking about vector<bool> and C compatibility. Now we're supposed to forget it? :p
 
@Jefffrey It's not important
 
well, I figure that in the same timeframe, you could simply re-write every program in that language to a new language.
 
What would you like removed then?
 
Or: it's not important for it to be what it is now
See above about FFI
 
10:53 PM
@CatPlusPlus See my disagreement above :p
 
@jalf yeah, C compat. was a bad idea. I don't know, there aren't many things that comes to my mind, but std::vector<bool> is a good-enough example
 
not really, because vector<bool> is trivial either way.
it's a minor annoyance and removing it wouldn't really change the position of the Committee at all.
 
2 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Things like vector<bool> are completely inconsequential
 
Wooo! Bedtime!
 
Shooo! Bedtime!
 
10:58 PM
> But… it’s made in Flash. And that’s a no-no for a title that comes out in 2014. It should have been conded in HTML5/Javascript, for example
 
fmap is really ugly and std::vector<bool> removes the beautiful symmetry of everything
and thinking that 20 years from now we'll still have to deal with that is just depressing
we are basically applying the forever taking Darwin's evolution principle on computer languages
 
what should I look at for free secure vod from my server? I was going to use flowplayer but I didnt know it was paid
 
@CatPlusPlus conded conded conded conded conded conded conded conded
 
@jamesson are you serious?
 
@Jefffrey Fact of life. You gotta support this shit.
 
11:03 PM
@Jefffrey, huh?
 
@jamesson What is this room about?
 
@jamesson Hate to break it to you, but we don't care about your secure vods.
 
o, dorry, wrong room
 
lol
 
Xeo
11:10 PM
@CatPlusPlus Why am I laughing so stupidly at that.
 
> large programs using it can lead to near illegible syntax
 
@ID_AA_Carmack hey the people who live here LOVE saint Louis #STLFTW
 
> do you think c++11 will improve the situation by coming with batteries included ?
gamedevs.txt
> Because they're templates and murder compile times?
 
@CatPlusPlus #imretarded
 
11:14 PM
C++ devs capacity to make their lives even harder is astounding
 
@Borgleader More proof!
 
I need to start a show called Mythbusters<C++> and prove them wrong =/
 
Good luck, I soon learned it's not worth the effort.
 
Sadly, you're probably right
 
All those replies are shitposts to the max.
Then again, I already know game developers are morons.
 
11:19 PM
I think there are 3 in there that did not make me cringe =/
> If it was buggy and slow 15 years ago, it has to be buggy and slow now as well. Right?
> Devs who learned C++ in the 80s or 90s don't know or trust STL. STL is reaching maturity in the age of...JavaScript.
nvm just two =/
You don't use STL where you need max performance, but performance isn't the top priority for most code, even in games.
hope
 
Xeo
I was under the impression that the stdlib was pretty performant
 
it is.
there's a few cases you can make go faster with more specialized code but they're not that common.
 
I think the most common case of custom code you'd see is custom allocators
but I'm not a game dev yet so i cant say
 
Xeo
So the complaint is likely about memory alloc, for which you have allocators
 
if emartel was still around he probably could tell us
 
11:24 PM
Xeo is a gamedev too
 
inb4 EASTL
 
@ID_AA_Carmack perf isn't the issue, predictability is. resizes, cascading dtors, expensive copies, etc. can hose you quietly
 
@sehe its been mentioned
 
The quiet resizes!
Maybe, you know, learn about .reserve()? -.-
 
@Borgleader vOv
 
11:25 PM
@ID_AA_Carmack at least they're not using Boost, amiright?
 
user1804599
 
@rightfold dude w t f
 
shit's ancient
 
> All right, dumb question, but what are the odds that old cum may have one living seaman inside which could latch on to an egg and make a child in need of therapy.
> one seaman is pretty big, I doubt it would fit in to latch the egg mate.
bahaha
 
> putStrLn actually doesn't have anything to do with monads and if Haskell didn't have monads at all, putStrLn would work just fine as it already is without any changes.
is he right?
 
user1804599
11:27 PM
Well.
 
Xeo
> A good man goes to war
 
user1804599
You can do main = putStrLn. :v
 
IO monad.
 
user1804599
No need for monads there.
 
Xeo
This sounds like a good episode.
 
11:28 PM
I was under the impression IO was like... the monad
 
user1804599
If I/O were not a monad it would still work.
 
Haskell had I/O before it had monads
 
user1804599
You can have monads without having monads.
 
user1804599
Just implement return and >>=. :v
 
> @ID_AA_Carmack I think libraries in C++ are not shared/reused due to different dialects of C++ and fact that bugs are hard to track down.
4
What ಠ_ಠ
 
user1804599
11:31 PM
Monad type class is just convenient because you can write generic code that works with all monads.
 
you can, but I don't recall seeing any amazingly useful examples
 
@Borgleader You know, there's the very ancient dialect, there's the ancient dialect, there's the old dialect, there's the current dialect and there are numerous future dialects!
 
user1804599
@DeadMG mapM is a very useful one.
 
@rightfold Still the same thing, the typeclass is not particularly relevant (and old I/O was not monadic period)
 
@Borgleader Other than that, people can't C++.
 
11:33 PM
@Griwes " fact that bugs are hard to track down" how is that C++ specific T_T
 
@Borgleader Because people can't C++.
 
user1804599
If you couldn’t write generic monadic code, you would have to reimplement mapM all the time, which is duplicate code aka cancer.
 
And they write undebuggable code vOv
 
Xeo
This episode is goood.
 
@rightfold What does that do?
 
user1804599
11:36 PM
mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
 
user1804599
It does this! :D
 
user1804599
Basically, e.g. mapM putStrLn strings prints all strings.
 
@ID_AA_Carmack agree! also the syntax&grammar, too many features.
TIL C++ has too many features
 
std::string has too many.
 
gamedevs.txt
5
 
11:39 PM
@Abyx And simultaneously not enough.
 
@Griwes yep
 
@CatPlusPlus Do it!
 
user1804599
So you can do a foreach loop within any monad.
 
can you really create a new container that is better than any other in the STL library?
 
easily
 
user1804599
11:40 PM
Be it I/O monad, option monad, list monad, state monad, w/e.
 
@rightfold ewww, loops :P
 
user1804599
What is wrong with loops?
 
user1804599
How the fuck are you going to write any real-world program without loops?
 
yep, for a specific task you can make a better thing than a generic one
 
flat_map is better for many things; there's boost container with various improvements
 
11:41 PM
@rightfold with recursion?
 
...
 
user1804599
Without loops you cannot iterate over data, and iterating over data is like … about the only thing computers do.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Yes, that is a way to implement loops.
 
@CatPlusPlus Honestly if this was a thing I'd probably have a multi GB file.
 
I have programmers.txt but I'm too lazy to actually add stuff there
 
11:42 PM
@Abyx I see
 
user1804599
mapM is an abstraction that implements looping over a list. There is no reason for using recursion explicitly here.
 
user1804599
In fact, mapM does recursion internally.
 
@rightfold Why couldn't map do that?
 
@Abyx hint: this is actually largely what the compiler does when it translates generic types in the source to specific assembly code
 
user1804599
Because map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b].
 
user1804599
11:44 PM
So map putStrLn ["a", "b"] would yield [putStrLn "a", putStrLn "b"]. IOW you get a list of monadic actions.
 
user1804599
You can use sequence to execute those, but mapM is a short-hand (implemented in terms of sequence, actually).
 
user1804599
You want IO [String], not [IO String].
 
user1804599
You want an action that yields a list of strings, not a list of actions yielding strings.
 
@rightfold I was talking about for/while loops vs recursion
smartass
 
user1804599
You could say that sequence transforms a list of computations into a single computation yielding a list.
 
user1804599
11:46 PM
@Jefffrey nothing wrong with imperative-style loops, really.
 
@rightfold it was a joke: "eww, who needs foreach/for/while loops when you have recursion"
 
user1804599
Who needs recursion when you can have for loops and stacks. vOv
 
user1804599
Use the correct tool for the job, and sometimes often that is a function that abstracts away recursion.
 
user1804599
11:59 PM
Listen to Tool at your job.
 

« first day (1267 days earlier)      last day (3682 days later) »