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7:00 PM
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Not broken anymore. It's bordering on malicious.
 
@Borgleader Ah,
@doug65536 Haven't looked at code: paste.ubuntu.com/6856817
 
Somewhere in Apple HQ: "What do you mean we have to allow users to run non-Apple software on our precious Apple hardware?!?!?! MAKE IT NEAR IMPOSSIBLE"
 
@CatPlusPlus it could be something like that
But it's worse I guess
 
I love it when the Lounge bashes Apple.
<3
 
At my old work, I had a macbook with a broken cd-drive and for that reason, I couldn't install a new windows with bootcamp because bootcamp only supported usb drives for macbook air
 
7:02 PM
@sehe it was just a quick test to get a rough idea of how expensive gcc's/pthread's implementation was. I stepped through the code and found that the easy case of acquiring an unowned mutex was 25 instructions
 
@TonyTheLion my Macbook just works fine for most things
 
Not to say that, to get the computer to boot, I had to make it sparks with the electric cord because there was a problem with the battery, it wouldn't detect magsafe unless I make it spark.
 
@sehe thanks for running that too
 
When you have a computer you have to short-circuit to turn on, it's time to throw it away
 
7:04 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix OMG stop it. I don't want to die laughing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is ­´nonius´ complete?
 
That's a silly question
 
No software is ever complete
 
That's what I told the people in my office and I left the company after a while... I ended up with running osx from an external drive because the internal drive blew up... Crazy time
 
user2260218
@sehe Could you try to explain what stream-oriented text mode IO means?
 
7:05 PM
@Borgleader What? Did hell freeze over last night?
 
@Borgleader Now I'm just adding more analyses and output formats and shit. example3.c++ works fine.
 
it is only ever merely in a state of "it kind of works now, so we can live with it for a while"
 
@TonyTheLion no really it's much worse than that
 
@Anthony I mean traditional pipe/socket/fifo/stream interfaces. I.e. the old UNIX adage "everything is a file".
 
user2260218
@sehe I'll try to parse that... Also do you know how computers send information? I guess that's what confuses me about ssh.
 
7:08 PM
@Anthony the most common way is regular socket-based network communication
 
user2260218
And also the fact that when you ssh into a server, the server is still usable, right?
 
threads.
 
@Anthony it sends an electric signal on cables
 
@Borgleader Though this mutex thing reminded me of a feature I'll need.
 
@Anthony It shouldn't. Ssh uses a stream transport layer. And it multiplexes terminal information (if using -t) on that. There's also side channel (for master/slave, tunneling, proxying, renegotiation and keepalive)
@Anthony Well, normally. If it was usable before connecting :)
@Anthony Ssh can allocate a vtty (virtual tty). So, there is no need for any physical kind of terminal. The server could be truly headless. Like, most wifi router boxes. I can ssh into my router
 
user2260218
7:10 PM
I understand that it sends signals. But I mean, I can understand that my computer can take information from my input, and save it. But how does the computer take my input, somehow send it out, and have that be readable by a computer elsewhere as a command to let me in?
 
it creates a socket
 
user2260218
What is a socket?
 
it's like a file you write/read from it and the network card transmit the data
 
But completely different
 
C++ is awkward.
Dammit.
 
7:11 PM
@Anthony it's an objectified description of a tentacle
 
@CatPlusPlus sockets do give you a file descriptor?
 
you can swing that tentacle around and suck to some other pcs tentacle
 
@BartekBanachewicz what?
 
Unless they don't (also they don't have file characteristics anyway)
 
7:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What prompted that? :)
 
user2260218
@BartekBanachewicz So my computer somehow take input, generates a signal that my router can interpret as different as it's own, then the router know how to process that, and bring it to the other computer. The other computer reads that as...? And then after it does that, it starts the relay. But mainly what is that ... and how does the computer require passwords and the like if all it is doing is receiving a signal?
 
@Anthony You're mixing too many abstraction levels. This won't become clear. Until you focus on one part of the picture
 
user2260218
And further, what prevents you from writing something like ssh, that doesn't require passwords? How are computers smart enough to not send information without requiring passwords?
 
7:14 PM
^ that
 
If you want to know how networking works down to the wire, then get a few years of free time
 
user2260218
@sehe I know, but i don't know what to do. I'm very confused.
 
@Anthony Maybe it's easiest to consider some alternatives. IBM mainframe terminals had full-screen editors built into the terminal itself. When data was submitted from the terminal, you basically received an image of a full screen. Early Control Data mainframes were oriented heavily enough toward working with Hollerith cards that some of them stored text files as basically a series of "virtual card images", 80 characters per line (regardless of how many characters the line really contained).
 
@BartekBanachewicz interesting observation
 
@Anthony Nothing
 
7:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The JPEG protocol is my favourite.
 
@Anthony you don't have to understand everything, just read about sockets if you want to send data to an other computer
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Aahaha
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :D
 
@Anthony Are you asking how computers work?
 
user2260218
Well, not fully, no.
 
7:16 PM
Also we don't use OSI model :ssh:
 
@Anthony Drop the ssh subject. Make a mental note that you think "sockets are interesting" and "transport layer security is interesting". Curiosity builds good programmers.
 
Curiosity also kills
6
 
Says the cat.
 
user2260218
I can take for granted that computers work internally, it's the speaking with foreign entities that confuses me.
 
@BartekBanachewicz But keep in mind that the mapping from real life to the OSI model is...loose, at best.
 
7:16 PM
@Anthony are you scared of strangers?
 
@Anthony the table I've linked you to is quite interesting if you take time to read and understand it.
 
user2260218
@BartekBanachewicz I will try.
 
user2260218
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix yes.
 
user2260218
lol
 
@Anthony You're doing a good job. Only, you ask more questions than a wise man can answer :)
 
user2260218
7:17 PM
@sehe :(
 
this might help
 
Here Mike, this will explain everything
 
@JerryCoffin IMHO it does a good job for illustrative purposes
 
TCP/IP model man
 
@Anthony It's ok. As long as you become aware of it. It's like learning how to squash. Or to water-ski. At some point you think "gimme-that; lemme try this". Then, you realize "wait, this gonna take some learning". Then you start with the basics.
 
7:18 PM
It's simpler also
 
it has 4 layers right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Of course not. You're a visual thinker. But all this does is bury the guy in more facts. He's not ready.
 
user2260218
Okay. Last question I guess. Can somebody how a message to a computer is innately required to give a password before getting information? I know that on my computer, it boots in a way such that it requires that, but if sshing doesn't actually control the computer, then how exactly does it require that you login? Why can't you just pull information?
 
@sehe :( I was trying to help.
 
Communication is cooperative
 
7:20 PM
@Anthony There's a program running on the computer that sends the information requested, if it deems appropriate. It's called an ssh server.
 
@Anthony you can't make a computer send you data just like that. You're asking it for information.
 
@sehe I'm sure it's even more ironic that you made it worse :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm pointing out that you're trying so hard, that you're ensuring it won't have the intended effect :)
 
Heh, I don't even know where networking basics are
I don't remember
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I didn't. Let me check
 
user2260218
7:21 PM
It's running a server, that only takes certain commands then? Oh I guess it makes sense...
 
user2260218
Thanks guys.
 
@sehe but it aligned with robot saying stuff about mixing abstraction levels!
 
user2260218
<3
 
@sehe You really, really did
 
@Anthony there is a program on the server called probably sshd (daemon), it listen on the port 22 for incoming connection. When a connection happen it will do its protocol thing with encryption etc and you'll see a password request on your side
 
7:21 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Blimey :/ He used entity references !?!?!?!!@#$!@#%&!$ What century was he in :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't say that.
 
@sehe He was inside <pre> and, well, was silly.
 
user3010322
Uh.
 
user3010322
Would anyone mind starring a message for me?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh wait it was sehe himself. Sorry then.
 
7:22 PM
@sehe Good job breaking it, hero
 
user3010322
Er
 
user3010322
Pinning*
 
user3010322
Pinning a message, that is.
 
@Anthony Yes. It's a bit like a dialogue between two processes running on different machines.
 
Just post the message
 
7:22 PM
@CatPlusPlus Fixed /cc @LightnessRacesinOrbit
 
A port is something like a door to your computer, behind each door there is a program that will receive a signal. For example a webserver is on port 80
 
@sehe I saw :)
@ThePhD Depends.
 
@CatPlusPlus I didn't make it worse. It was unusable before the fact.
At least, now I still fixed it. LRIO was being lazy :)
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix That's a horrible analogy
 
user3010322
At my university, there's a development festival going on: I'm going to use my game engine to make a quick vidya game. Ping me~ ♡
4
 
user3010322
7:23 PM
@CatPlusPlus ^ There it is.
 
@CatPlusPlus anything better?
 
user3010322
I could, uh. Probably slim it down.
 
@sehe shrug If you're gonna start something and berate the guy over it...
 
Did you see me try? :v Mailboxes might be a better one
 
It's more like the ports where you plug cables.
 
7:24 PM
But it's probably confusing anyway
 
> vidya game
 
unless you have multiple mailboxes on a house
 
user3010322
There we go, now it fits.
 
@ThePhD so I assume your engine is open now?
 
Fuck analogies
2
 
user3010322
7:24 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's as closed as ever.
 
user3010322
Hencewhy I'm asking for the halpz.
 
> Almuerzo, déjeuner, 午餐, hádegismatur, 점심, kwasemini, f00d. Time for some smackerels.
wtf is up with your uni
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit True enough. Although, I still don't think I significant "broke" something. I just failed to make it better. At least, with my edit, it was clear that the blurb consisted of three bits of information. And what these were :|
 
@ThePhD does not compute
 
@sehe Post-edit the code was non-compilable :)
In every other way it was an improvement, though
 
user3010322
7:25 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit They're pretty... interesting individuals. :D
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It was. It was just not presented in accurate human-readable form :/ (Who's the pedant? Huh?! Tell me :))
 
@sehe iuhoiugyasdfasdfa
compile that
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Precisely. Allthough, of course #include &lt;iostream> is a bit less obfuscated
 
I just did, it outputs "Hello world"
 
Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'undefined' of undefined
or right. JS.
 
7:27 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit error: 'iuhoiugyasdfasdfa' does not name a type
 
I also need to one-headerise this.
 
Amalgamate
 
@doug65536 You forgot to un-sehe it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit decent trivia question though
 
@doug65536 yeah?
 
7:28 PM
sure, "what compiler error does a source file that contains only "asdfasdfja" give you"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Screw you. HTML entities are not "sehe-specific". In fact, they're trivially obvious to most people.
 
@doug65536 If someone asked me that in an interview, not only would I decline the position but I would proceed to report the company as a terrorist organisation.
 
@sehe I've heard dumber questions in programmer interviews
 
IMPOSSIBRU
 
7:31 PM
@sehe come on, if you were the interviewer, and he listed off what several compilers would say, that wouldn't be impressive?
 
hi @BadgerGirl
 
hi Banani
 
lurk lurk
 
user3010322
Banani
 
user3010322
That sounds like something delicious. ♬
 
7:33 PM
@doug65536 bad reasoning. As an interviewer I'm not interested in what tricks a pony can perform
 
user3010322
Now I need to write general cross product and dot product.
 
I was actually asked nice questions on my interview
 
user3010322
IIRC, it's called like the Inner Product.
 
and I weren't able to answer them back then :S :S :S
I feel so ashamed now
Which I prolly should not but I still do.
 
@sehe you always get, "how would you implement <something you would NEVER implement because it is provided by the standard library>"
 
7:35 PM
@doug65536 I didn't get that
 
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz Pat pat. It's okay. As a Bucket Banana Sandwich, you've come far. We're proud of you.
 
I've come nowhere.
The most valuable thing I've learned here is that my knowledge is absurdly tiny and irrelevant.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's about time!
 
@ThePhD There's no general cross product.
 
7:39 PM
@doug65536 I didn't get that either. Also: you can just use the stdlib
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, you can compute the cross product for any dimension n for 1 x n matrix against another, but it's only meaningful for dimensions 2, 3, and 7 IIRC.
 
user3010322
(Maybe 4 too?)
 
cross product works for 3 dimensions and then some higher select dimensions, that's about it, as far as I know
 
gosh I can't remember the last time I've played on a piano
that's sad.
 
for two it doesn't unless you add the third one, right?
 
7:41 PM
@ScarletAmaranth 7.
 
user3010322
For two, there's like 2 approximations. One of them is just assuming the z coordinate is 0 for the triple cross product.
 
user3010322
Then there's some other assumption you make that's a lot less used.
 
@ThePhD That doesn't produce any meaningful result.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes In the case of working in 2D, it does (when the 2D world implicitly implies z = 0, anyways)
 
With that "approximation", the 2d cross product of any 2d vectors v and u is (0,0).
@ThePhD Does not, because there's no triple of 2D vectors that all are orthogonal to each other.
It's a basic vector space property: any basis in 2d vector space has size 2.
 
user3010322
7:44 PM
I don't know. Let me check.
 
user3010322
Hm. Maybe it was assume the other coordinate is 1.
 
What's the meaning of the result?
It's not a vector orthogonal to the other two.
 
@doug65536 It probably gives you several. Basically, what's allowed there are declarations, so for it to be allowed, asdfasdfja would have to be something that could start a declaration like a type name, storage class, or cv-qualifier. Since it's not any of those, the compiler would start by complaining about that. Then it would complain that the declaration lacked a semicolon to terminate it. Then, it might complain about the lack of required line terminator (typically new-line) as well.
OTOH, it might define "diagnostic" in some unusual fashion, and emit only (for example) the 440Hz beep that it defines as the sole possible "diagnostic".
 
@doug65536 A->B does not mean B->A
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ...Meanwhile, people with true ability tended to underestimate their relative competence...
 
7:48 PM
@doug65536 Yes, I know what the Dunning–Kruger effect is. But it is not a guarantee that everybody who knows they don't know stuff actually does know a lot of stuff.
Some people just don't know stuff and are aware of that.
In short, what you just quoted does not also mean "people who speak poorly of their relative competence in reality have true ability"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit one thing I've learned time and time again in IRC is that people that come in all badass and cocky are the ones that haven't a clue. the ones that are calm and respectful tend to really know their stuff
 
@doug65536 Yeah, you're missing my point entirely. But that's okay.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't need your condescending "help" understanding it either
 
(You're also giving too much credence to generalisations)
@doug65536 Right, okay then. Nice chatting with you.
dickwad
 
Okay boys. We all have big dicks, but we don't have to display them in public.
 
7:52 PM
So, did you hear? Mark Zuckerberg is going to play Lex Luthor...
 
@ThePhD What you're missing here is that, when you assume z=whatever, the result of the cross product is outside the plane, no matter what.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit <3
 
@JerryCoffin I don't think trying to help someone to understand a basic tenet of logical reasoning is "displaying my big dick", but okay
If you insist! ;)
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I understand, but when I was writing RVector<T, n>, I could only write the cross product in terms of T and n.
 
That's the same property that makes it possible to define a plane with a normal vector (the result of such product) and a scalar (the whatever).
 
user3010322
7:53 PM
distance (from the origin?)
 
@ThePhD If you provide it for all specialisations, it's a bad API.
 
The cross product only exists for vector spaces with basis of sizes 0, 1, 3, and 7.
7 is related to octonions. 0 and 1 are left as an exercise to the reader.
 
octonions are so beatiful and yet so useless
 
user3010322
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The goal was just writing the function once, so I didn't have to maintain a few implementations, and then writing a static_assert( n == 3 || n == 2 ..., "Invalid dimension");
 
7:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz they make you cry eight times :(
 
user3010322
Though, I think I see a pattern here now.
 
user3010322
On how to compute the cross product.
 
I was already made cry 4 times by quaternions
 
In mathematics, Hurwitz's theorem is a theorem of Adolf Hurwitz (1859–1919), published posthumously in 1923, on finite-dimensional unital real non-associative algebras endowed with a positive-definite quadratic form. The theorem states that if the quadratic form defines a homomorphism into the positive real numbers on the non-zero part of the algebra, then the algebra must be isomorphic to the real numbers, the complex numbers, the quaternions or the octonions. The non-associative algebras occurring are called Hurwitz algebras or composition algebras. The problem has an equivalent formulati...
 
ouch
Is it just me or does the caption "These houseboats lie docked in Shasta Lake, which is 100 feet (30 metres) below its normal levels" suggest that this entire marina typically lies about 28 metres underwater? (bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25996522)[source]
Maybe it all floats
 
7:58 PM
404
too lazy to fix by hand
 
user3010322
What's a generalized name for things like quadrant, octant, etc?
 
@ThePhD Section, portion, division (subdivision)?
 
heh, Lenna in 10 colors
 

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