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10:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus He sounds like a hack, and that website sounds like something nobody in their right mind would visit
 
sbi
@thecoshman Is there anyone on this world you have met, but haven't drunk with?
 
@sbi sure.
 
@KerrekSB He made a crappy site where people vote on bad questions and bad answers and that gives him infinite insight into the world of discussion and web forums
 
Like, voluntarily answer stupid questions for free? "Boohoo, I can't tell whether this is overloading or specialization, whine whine, plz help its urgent"
 
10:01 PM
ikr
 
sbi
Few people can diss as efficiently as he grumpy cat.
 
Bottom line Discourse sucks and my existence is lonely and pathetic
 
@sbi I guess the only thing worse than a grump cat would be a grumpy, wet cat.
 
@sbi that he maybe, but he did just make two very fine points :P
 
sbi
@KerrekSB I thought he's all wet?
 
10:02 PM
@CatPlusPlus Are those all sockpuppets of yourself that you created with avatar screenshots from this lounge?
 
oh god
 
@sbi It's entirely possible, though I never investigated.
 
I just remembered bjarne's C++ book uses a proportional font
 
sbi
Well, whatever. I do need to get to bed. Those siblings of his will certainly bugger me way to early in the morning.
 
10:03 PM
I'm so good at computers I used wrong font for a year once
 
sbi
@nightcracker Oh, most books do that. But not for code!
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus that was hilarious
 
@nightcracker :(
@Ell no it wasn't
 
@CatPlusPlus What?
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit okay
 
10:04 PM
I'm using a custom CSS for the chat and had an error in font declaration and didn't notice
 
@sbi I surely hope you meant "bug me".
 
@CatPlusPlus screenshot or it didn't happen
 
@JerryCoffin +1
 

Wrong font for a year

Feb 15 '13 at 19:49, 8 minutes total – 54 messages, 7 users, 12 stars

Bookmarked Oct 31 '13 at 15:56 by R. Martinho Fernandes

 
10:05 PM
@JerryCoffin I certainly hope so o_0
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Whatever. Your language is confusing. And since my son didn't want to share a drink with me, I had to drink all those beers alone... :)
 
btw does one of you guys have a for (int i : range(10)) implementation lying around?
 
Also I like how you said "for four months", until the following day (and just now) when suddenly it becomes "for a year". So I guess @Cat is about as good at figuring out the passage of time as he is at recognising Sans Serif fonts.
 
(a-la pythons range)
 
@sbi Sometimes it's important to get the little details right, though... OK, back, to C\C++.
 
10:06 PM
And no I don't care that I switched from second-person to third-person midway through that message
 
@sbi oooh, it's such a hard life as a parent :P
 
@sbi I won't deny it's confusing.
 
@KerrekSB What is C\C++?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I was guessing first and then looked at the commit log
 
@KerrekSB where is this "C\C++"?
 
10:07 PM
Oh god who was it who kept using backslashes in text on SO? I forget
 
So pffff
 
@CatPlusPlus failure
 
sbi
Anyway. Good night, folks!
 
@sbi sleep safe gorilla
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's a language like Java but with memory leaks. It's often called C(++), too.
 
10:07 PM
@KerrekSB icy
 
Ell
@sbi Night :)
 
@sbi return EXIT_SUCCESS
 
@KerrekSB like Java? in that it has brackets?
 
@nightcracker It also has new and objects
Hot stuff
 
@sbi Later.
 
10:08 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Haha. That is hilarious.
 
sbi
@KerrekSB return RELATIONSHIP_FAILURE;
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit story of my life
 
sbi
yawns obscenely
 
RELATE_ION_SHOP | RAISE_PRICES
 
10:09 PM
@sbi while (fail) {}
 
@sbi stop that! It's contagious
Nah. Go right ahead. I will too.
 
@sehe where did you just come from?
 
Night all
@KerrekSB lurkland
 
@KerrekSB 0x00004203a245bfa21
 
@sehe G'night.
 
10:10 PM
@CatPlusPlus lmdtfy: *reinterpret_cast<land*>(0x00004203a245bfa21)
 
@sbi we get it already. now scram
 
There we go. Takeaway burgers. This I'm good at.
cyaaaa
 
@thecoshman ?
 
Best food is food you don't have to make
 
10:10 PM
no
 
user1804599
All food, then.
 
best food is delicious food
 
@CatPlusPlus Cooking is awesome, if the result is awesome.
 
user1804599
del.icio.us food.
 
10:11 PM
I like cooking a bit.
 
@sehe ... as in stop saying you are going and go already...
 
@VáclavZeman And then take a byte?
 
@CatPlusPlus :D
 
badumtsh
 
guys
I have an evil masterplan
we kidnap @CatPlusPlus
chain him to a chair with a keyboard and a terminal
and hook that up to catplusplus-as-a-service.com
 
10:13 PM
There's no demographic that'd buy that
 
fuck
 
Not really
 
@nightcracker Monetized by a) micropayments, b) a protection racket, c) an early-dawn IPO
 
If your IPO is me then boy do I have bad news for you
 
@nightcracker Wait, what - a keyboard and a terminal? Like some kind of hardcore super person?
 
10:16 PM
fammit
 
@JerryCoffin rekt
 
:19252330 CAAS will randomly troll you're grammer
 
actually
 
oooh.... I can't look at deleted posts no more :(
and my name is not trippy either :(
I made a huge mistake guys!
 
scrap that keyboard
 
10:16 PM
@KerrekSB Sorry, but both my grammer's died years ago. My grammer on my dad's side did live to be 100 though.
 
we'll make him use the on-screen keyboard
 
Ever typed C\C++ on a mobile touch device? It makes you feel a whole lot different about the whole "mobile generation" business. Or not, depending on how you felt about it before.
 
@KerrekSB Just the other day I typed "C/C++" on a mobile device. Does using a back-slash really make it a lot harder to type 5 characters?
 
@KerrekSB Yes, i had to. On a three year old Blackberry. I fucking hated it.
 
Man, I seem to be mostly stating tautologies today, except for when I'm not.
2
 
10:20 PM
@KerrekSB Sexist!
 
@JerryCoffin It's the backticks that are getting me. I sometimes try to get a quick final comment in at night after my main terminal is locked up, using a tablet.
 
Have you ever had a dream that you, um, you had, your, you, you could, you’ll do, you, you wants, you, you could do so, you , you’ll do, you could, you, you want, you want them, to do you so much, you could do anything?
 
@JerryCoffin Person, gender-unspecified and choice-respected, what a day I had!
Doesn't have the same ring, sorry.
 
lol, awesome post to std-proposals
 
@KerrekSB As well you should be, you evil, vile, patriarchal fossil!
 
user1804599
10:23 PM
@AndyProwl lol
 
@AndyProwl He hasnt heard of <filesystem> ? o.o
 
@JerryCoffin Strange, that's the second time I've been called that today. I need to change my moisturizer.
And the other time was when I voiced my opinion in a C++ vs Go debate.
 
@Borgleader apparently not. I mean, that post wouldn't even fit StackOverflow
 
@Borgleader That's <experimental/filesystem> to you, miss
 
on std-proposals it's beyond ridicule
 
10:25 PM
@KerrekSB No wonder. Of course, you had to know that was a mistake before you bothered.
 
Ell: I really hate it, it's crowded, it's full of chicks trying to get noticed and guys trying to be more extrovert via alcoholic disinhibitions
 
As Professor X once said, "we do not get to choose the debates we are in. All we have to decide is how to argue in them."
 
@KerrekSB filesystem didnt make it in C++14? D:
 
@Borgleader lol no?
 
@Borgleader Yeah, right - how hard could it have been, eh
The TS is balloting at the moment as far as I know
 
10:28 PM
@Borgleader C++14 really didn't bring anything new, only expanded / fixed some features from C++11
 
Another big step should be C+17
 
Thats like the c++14 feature im looking forward to the most
 
@Borgleader what is?
 
@nightcracker Some awesome things, though. Hooray for std::make_reverse_iterator
 
*C++17, sorry
 
10:29 PM
@Ell Did you lose your current one?
 
And fixed std::rotate
 
@KerrekSB surely you're joking?
 
@nightcracker I don't joke, nor lie. Ever.
 
std::make_reverse_iterator isn't bad, but to call it awesome...
 
@KerrekSB That's a debate to just stay out of (IMO). How often do you accomplish anything by arguing with willfully ignorant zealots?
 
10:30 PM
@JerryCoffin Hehe - true. I was just looking for a way to subvert that Gandalf quote, though.
 
Ell
@Puppy nah. They didn't care about the skipping a day thing :P I just hate this one I have currently
so looking for something less depressing
 
@KerrekSB Somebody brought a Gandalf quote into a C++ vs. zealots debate? That does sound cheeky.
 
@JerryCoffin Haha, no, I was, just now, with the "all we have to do" quote
 
Ell
Is there a name for the combination of a location & orientation in space?
 
Though I should cite Gandalf more frequently in such debates.
 
Ell
10:32 PM
I'll google it.
 
@Ell stress tensor?
 
help! I'm feeling tired, what can I do to remedy this?
 
Ell
@KerrekSB en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_tensor looks like I'm going down the rabbit hole ;)
 
@Ell Not really. Most operations only call for one or the other- or for a much more detailed package.
 
@KerrekSB His biggest line of all: "You shall not Go!"
 
10:33 PM
afaik
 
zch
Is Go bad?
 
@JerryCoffin No, I think he was talking Python at that point
 
user1804599
@zch Yes.
 
user1804599
It's about as bad as C, except slightly less bad.
 
It's rather meh
 
10:34 PM
@JerryCoffin "You shall not pass by reference" FTFY
 
@Ell It's probably not quite appropriate. I'd actually rather go with "tangent vector": A position in space, along with a tangent direction at that point.
 
Go is incredibly good at lacking things
3
 
user1804599
Speaking of bad languages, TIL Scala allows reification of generic types.
 
I really think Rust has potential though
 
zch
Scala is bad?
 
user1804599
10:35 PM
No.
 
@Borgleader Also quotable
 
@zch There are certainly worse languages--but its followers tend to be zealous to the point that they feel obliged to attack other languages on completely specious and spurious bases.
 
but in order to not turn shit I'd say it has to stay in a fluid state with easy breaking changes for quite a while
 
Ell
I think it's neat that scala retains type information of generics after compiled
 
the Rust borrow checker is a really refreshing and new concept (at least for me)
 
10:36 PM
@nightcracker The name itself implies 'potential for failure'.
 
@nightcracker I like the sound of Rust. Unique pointers are a language feature. Who would have thought. Const by default. I look forward to seeing how it'll do
 
Robot seemed to like it
 
user1804599
Rust is a complicated clusterfuck, like C++.
 
@KerrekSB here's the thing about rust: it goes beyond unique pointers
 
@rightfold Excellent
 
Ell
10:37 PM
@Puppy I'm not sure where to put orientation & position information on my camera class. I don't have a scene graph which I probably should though
Wait. I don't want a scene graph
 
@nightcracker Twonique pointers? Have one more?
 
that wouldn't give a shit about orientation and position.
it only cares about world matrix.
 
Ell
meh I'm writing too much. I'll just use a matrix directly
 
in Rust you can move out of a variable, and then it's a syntax error to access that variable again
 
It has named lifetimes
 
user1804599
10:38 PM
Not a syntax error, fool.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yep, that's neat.
 
Ell
@nightcracker No
 
@zch Scala has a few semi-cool ideas, but insists on maintaining Java interop, which anchors it to the ineffable awfulness of Java's standard library.
 
@Puppy I have a problem with concepts, can I ask your opinion?
 
10:38 PM
I used to hate that idea, but now I'm a big fan.
@AndyProwl Sure.
 
Say I have two concepts like these:
 
zch
@JerryCoffin kindof like C++ is bound to C?
 
user1804599
Garbage collectors and bracket: solving life time issues since the 20th century!
 
template<typename T>
virtual concept bool D();
template<typename T>
virtual concept bool C()
{
    return requires(T x, D y)
    {
        foo(x, y);
        // ...
    };
}
template<typename T>
virtual concept bool D()
{
    return requires(C x, T y)
    {
        foo(x, y);
        // ...
    };
}
(aw sorry)
 
yeah
 
10:39 PM
@JerryCoffin AwfulFactoryAbstractSingletonWriterBean
 
you can delete that thanks
 
(will post somewhere else then link)
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl another reason proper brace placement is important.
 
Brace yourself
 
@rightfold I just didn't mean to flood the chat
 
user1804599
10:39 PM
inb4 onebox
 
Deface yourself
 
@AndyProwl You've done it wrong already.
 
It's fine
 
@Puppy awesome. What's wrong?
 
first
 
Ell
10:40 PM
@JerryCoffin I think it does it pretty well
 
second
 
You could do worse than post naked concepts
 
@zch Kind of like, but much, much worse--not only is Java's library designed (using the term loosely) worse, but because it's just so gargantuan.
 
like I said earlier, as far as I am aware, there is no useful reason to discriminate between static concepts and "virtual" ones.
 
user1804599
@JerryCoffin Java ecosystem is a huge win.
 
Ell
10:41 PM
@Puppy polymorphism? (I haven't read the transcript. I'll stop commenting now)
 
and secondly, I think that declaring concepts is an automatic fail.
 
@Puppy right, I get that part
 
user1804599
@JerryCoffin Which part of the Java library are you most worried about?
 
so two concepts cannot refer to one another?
 
no.
 
10:41 PM
@AndyProwl: is that "concepts" as in N4040 concepts?
 
C++ already requires declaration-order-independent semantics in other cases.
so just drop it here.
 
@KerrekSB yes and no, it's a related proposal I'm working on
 
well.
 
@rightfold It's the only reason anybody would even notice Scala's existence, but it's also an anchor hanging around its neck, ensuring Scala can never be worth anything.
 
@AndyProwl Ah, ack
 
10:42 PM
really, the whole "template" thing needs dropping.
but whether or not you can make that fly is another matter, I guess.
 
@rightfold That's a little like asking "Which part of the ocean is the most wet?"
 
the template part is for compatibility with Concepts TS
 
I might deploy Mantis to replace YouTrack
 
user1804599
I wouldn't expect any other answer from you.
 
In general I've found there's two camps of people:
1. purists who want their code and toolchain to be clean
2. people who are already so far with their necks into shit it doesn't matter what other shit you throw on the shitpile
guess which camp includes Java programmers
 
10:43 PM
I didn't mean in terms of "You should remove the template keyword"
I meant as in, "The semantics of a template are fundamentally undesirable here".
 
oh
3. "enterprise" is a buzzword for "shitpile"
 
lol C++ programmers talking about toolchains
 
well C++ doesn't exactly have the best toolchain, but at least it ain't Java
 
@Puppy but if I want to treat regular concepts "virtually" I am bound to that notation
 
lol
grr java
 
10:45 PM
Once upon a time I had to do a school exam in "programming"
 
@AndyProwl Frankly, I don't really see how it works for regular concepts either. But it could definitely never work for virtual concepts which must meet ABI compatibility between modules.
 
Call me when C++ has a central repo and a tool like Maven
haha that'll be never
 
if you want to use the "template" syntax, that's one thing, but you would have to substantially change their semantics (especially no specialization) to make it work.
I hate Maven.
 
It involved in creating a GUI using some very outdated and shitty Java IDE using some shitty library that was implemented as an XML preprocessor of the Java
 
lots of arsing around with pointless XML configuration to generate more pointless boilerplate.
 
10:46 PM
lol
 
Ell
@catplusplus do you like deploying things?
 
grr xml
 
@rightfold As well you shouldn't. Seriously, trying to narrow down the problems is next to impossible. You have the inheritance-based containers, which means (for example) that Map (I think it's Map, anyway) that's obviously a container is officially not a container. You also have the fact that most (all?) the containers actually hold instances of something-derived-from-Object, so native types need to be autoboxed as you put them in and unboxed as you pull them out. There...oops, out of space.
 
I lust for the day XML is banished from this earth
 
user1804599
C++ is probably a subset of XML. All the angle brackets!
 
Ell
10:47 PM
@jerry I don't think Scala uses Javas collection library
 
@rightfold And like XML, it separates declarations from definitions.
 
Sep 23 at 17:39, by nightcracker
JSONx - encode json as XML
 
user1804599
@JerryCoffin No sane Scala programmer uses the Java collections library.
 
and then you add a project to your Maven dependencies and then you still have to shit around building the project manually and adding the path to the stupid pointless env var yourself, instead of Maven doing it's job and actually making the dependency ready to use.
 
@Puppy OK, will keep that in mind. So you're saying the problem I was talking about is a no-problem, right?
 
10:48 PM
It does make dependency ready to use, you're just bad
I'll leave to grr impotently about toolchains that left C++ in the dust long time ago and go to sleep or something
 
aand then when you've done that it turns out that jdb doesn't even support the pointless env var so the resulting program is undebuggable.
 
what about pip?
 
What about it
 
@Ell If memory serves, it has a few other collections of its own, but depends on Java's collections for some things, and defines interop with it (because without that, you've pretty much just given up on interop with Java at all).
 
well, we were discussing dep managers
 
user1804599
10:49 PM
npm ftw
 
It works I don't know what about it
C++ toolchains are so terrible they can't measure up to anything
 
@AndyProwl Not even sure what problem you were ultimately referring to.
just realized that I didn't even stop to ask.
just went off on a bit of a tangent.
 
Lisp had better tooling like 20 years before C++ was even made and C++ still has nothing of value
 
eh
 
So yeah grr xml :allears:
 
10:52 PM
I don't really think that C++ has distinct tooling of it's own, it mostly inherited all the tooling from C.
 
Ell
Valgrind is pretty good
 
@Ell I don't understand the question
 
@Puppy two concepts referring to each other (C<T> requires foo(T, D) and D<T> requires foo(C, T)), and a call foo(c, d) which is inherently ambiguous (template syntax for brevity)
 
Ell
@catplusplus idk. You're always trying new software out
 
Xeo
@AlexM. Finished Hyouka.
 
10:53 PM
We need to replace YT and TC
 
@rightfold Collections are just the tip of the iceberg though. Where would you like to go next? Perhaps Java's five (or so) attempts each at file I/O and windowing, and both still being such complete crap that make even C++ iostreams seem like a good design by comparison?
 
Ell
Like new bug trackers or forums or stuff
 
So I was wondering if the call should be ill-formed, or the concept definitions
 
Ell
Do you enjoy installing and configuring it?
 
or neither, or both
 
10:54 PM
Not if it's in rubby
 
@AndyProwl Don't see how it's ambiguous.
 
@Puppy It could use C's vtable or D's vtable to dispatch the call, potentially resulting in different behavior
not considering multimethods at the moment
 
for which potential arguments?
 
user1804599
@Ell Need a new bug tracker? Why not Hexapoda‽
 
zch
Make it UB, always best for optimization.
 
10:55 PM
now if internet worked apart from the chat I'd post an example on pastebin
 
Ell
@rightfold how is that going?
:P
 
user1804599
Not.
 
@Puppy say X models C, Y models D, and I have void bar(C c, D d) { foo(c, d); } which I invoke this way: int main() { X x; Y y; bar(x, y); }. Now in bar()'s call I don't know which vtable to use for dispatching the call
 
I might have to do GSCE Maths. A new law states that your A-Level course won't be paid for unless you have a grade C or better in GSCE Maths... i had a bet with my teacher about writing hundert percent in a 1:45h GSCE Paper in less than 25 mins and won
So perhaps he can persuade my tutor to do sth. about it.
 

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