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10:00 PM
then again, I guess the average client doesn't know what the fuck the difference between HDD and SSD is
 
sure they do
HDDs are slow as shit and offer way more space than they need.
SSDs are fast and plenty big enough
 
OK, so I'm a bit under the weather where al the flagots from
I'm gussing Android
Gone now.
@Puppy Like Sheffield.
 
You don't make a lot of sense
Also you grammar is broken. Are you drunk already?
 
I actually don't know if my machine has a gigabit Ethernet card.
I certainly don't have a CAT-6 cable.
 
@Sofffia I was drunk an hour ago.
 
10:03 PM
@Sofffia Is he drunk? Am I smart?
 
I should goto :bed.
 
user1804599
> Sorry, you've used that password before. You must choose a new password.
 
user1804599
arrrgggg
 
user1804599
Morons.
 
do it like me
Oct 7 at 13:02, by Alex M.
I used to have 2,2-dimethylpentane as password
I change the formula from time to time
 
10:07 PM
@rightføld Who?
 
the new password is always very different from the last, but really simple to remember
because it's about the same stuff
 
So that I can stay away from the service
 
user1804599
@Sofffia Me.
 
I meant where did you get that message?
inb4 on my screen
 
user1804599
Tumblr.
 
10:09 PM
@rightføld Use password manager.
 
user1804599
Does that work across machines?
 
Yes
 
yes.
 
Dropbox + Two steps security
 
the password database is encrypted with RSA or triple DES or something punchy like that so just share it over dropbox.
 
10:10 PM
Keepass is good enough
 
user1804599
I want RFID-based auth and an implanted chip.
 
it's a bit inconvenient for new or shared machines to have to type in the super-long random passwords from my phone, but for regular machines, it's exceedingly convenient and particularly secure.
 
^
 
user1804599
lol KeePass requires Mono.
 
Surprisingly services like Windows Live or Yahoo (IIRC) limit their password to something like 12 and 18 chars respectively.
 
Xeo
10:12 PM
@Puppy I gave up on KeePass-on-phone
 
@Xeo Really? Mine's fine.
 
For god only knows what reason.
 
Xeo
I'd need to reduce the iterations too much
 
user1804599
@Sofffia Yes, but that's far from the only thing they are horrible terrible at.
 
Xeo
I got my Nexus anyways, which only needs a couple seconds.
 
10:13 PM
I'm pretty sure it's still safe even with low iterations.
 
Xeo
eh, there's a reason for high iterations (i.e., making it take ~1s per try on the PC)
 
What do you mean by "iterations" in this context?
 
attackers can feel free to try to brute-force my 30-character-long random key.
 
Xeo
key transformations
 
user1804599
Using the same password for everything and tattooing it on your forehead is also safe enough.
 
10:13 PM
even taking 1ms or 1ns per iteration, that's still too many permutations for feasibility.
 
Xeo
Actually, I wonder if KeePass uses the CPU or GPU to do those transformations. Prolly CPU, GPU would likely be a lot faster (and you'd thus need a way higher iteration count to get 1s).
 
nope, they have to be done in serial.
bruteforcers can try several passwords in parallel but you can't decrypt a specific password in parallel.
 
Xeo
@Puppy Yes. But the time per transformation would be less, I think
 
not a chance.
GPUs are considerably slower than CPUs at serial operations.
they only shine on embarassingly parallel problems.
 
Googled key transformations and got 1) those things where the phone changes the position of the numbers on the phone keyword so that people that spy on you don't actually get the code; 2) "key transformation" as synonym of "hashing".
 
10:17 PM
it's the same principle as several hash iterations on stuff like bcrypt yes.
 
Xeo
welp, time for sleeps
 
hmm
my calculator says that there are 4x10^46 possible combinations.
even if you could do 10^18 every second, it'd still be way beyond unfeasible.
 
user1804599
Probably because copy–pasting code like #include does is about the worst possible implementation of modules ever. — rightføld just now
 
@Puppy It would require 1.2683916793505833e21 years
says GHCI
 
I'll wait.
 
10:22 PM
Considering that you then change it every year... good luck with that.
 
and that's even assuming that I was honest about having a 26-character password with no punctuation or anything.
@Sofffia I do? Why would I do that?
I'm probably not going to change it for another 1.268e21 years.
 
Probably security
 
the security of what?
nobody knows my password or could ever possibly guess it.
 
If your password is in their first years calculations, then you are fucked.
 
given that there's a 1 in 1.268e21 probability, I'm happy to take that risk.
 
10:25 PM
The probability of finding your password increases linearly. At ~(1.268e21 / 2) is of 50%
 
oh noes, they might find it in 0.634e21 years.
they're welcome to it.
 
Ok, maybe you can change it every two year.
 
you know your password is safe if the number of years it takes to crack it has letters in it
 
I think it can wait a few hundred million billion quintillion years.
and that's not even an exaggeration.
well, maybe a few hundred quintillion years.
hmm
I wonder if it's more likely to happen to spontaneously combust due to random quantum noise.
 
I never remember what's the notation XeY. Is it X ^ Y or X * 10 ^ Y or X * e ^ Y?
 
10:28 PM
it's X * 10 ^ Y.
 
@AlexM. 0.1e1 is not very much.
 
relative to infinity?
 
relative to the number of years required to crack a password
 
relative infinity
 
0
Q: Probability of spontaneous combustion

DeadMGGiven the random background quantum noise, what is the probability that it will happen to concentrate in a sufficient location causing a human being to spontaneously combust?

 
user1804599
10:31 PM
ok bored wat do
 
this will probably turn out to be a terrible question on Physics, but oh well.
 
@AlexM. 1.123678e-89 is not very safe
 
you keep throwing those numbers at me
I don't know how to read them
 
the bit after the "e" is a power of 10.
so 1.1 * (10 ^ -89)
10^-89 obviously being an exceedingly small number.
 
oh
 
user1804599
10:36 PM
Yay Java 8 JDK.
 
I put this (1.1 * 10^89) in Google and it showed me 1.1e+89
@Puppy I think I got it
 
lol "yay JDK"
you suck
 
@AlexM. For every -1 you move the comma on the left
 
user1804599
Unsigned integer arithmetic yay.
 
@Puppy it's 3.5 * 10^-58 yoctoseconds
 
10:38 PM
123.4 * 10 ^ -2 = 12.34 * 10 ^ -1 = 1.234
 
@rightføld no way!
 
user1804599
Not unsigned types, though. But easy to wrap costless with AnyVal in Scala. :p
 
> To avoid dealing with the overhead of boxed values and to allow reuse of the built-in arithmetic operators, the unsigned API support does not introduce new types like UnsignedInt with instance methods to perform addition, subtraction, etc. However, that lack of separate Java-level unsigned types does mean a programmer can accidentally improperly mix signed and unsigned values.
rofl typical Java
"We're too dumb to make the compiler do useful things; just do it manually!"
also, turns out that quantum noise cannot make you spontaneously combust.
oh well.
 
Compilers are hard
Physics also
 
10:41 PM
There's something to be said for "unsigned integers are confusing when mixed and Java is not for high perf, so we don't". But now that they want it, why half-bake it...
Psychics are easy
 
I really wanted it to be that it was more likely for the password hacker to spontaneously combust than for them to crack the password.
 
Never gonna happen
 
yeah, but they're both never gonna happen, and one of them has to be less likely than the other.
 
Except, spontaneous combustion has been reported zero times, password cracking has been reported many times. "That's not my password" - granted, still no good comparison
 
user1804599
10:46 PM
Syntax can be made prettier in a few ways.
 
user1804599
Also need to override equals.
 
@rightføld units?
 
user1804599
No, unsigned integers.
 
anagram
I have an ugly in my code, my tests don't pass when I run the entire suite
 
Also, password change still useful: many attacks yield partial information (repeated monitoring can give approximate length information, heat maps or even keyboard sounds can give information about key distribution (even across the street from within another building);
In short, re-use greatly increases sidechannel attacks. And reuse is not just "I use it today for 5 different purposes" but also "I use it for 1 purpose over a longer period in 50,000 separate events.
 
10:54 PM
Holy shit
 
user1804599
My Apocalypse is such a great song.
 
We get: auto func(const auto&) function declarations?
 
yep
 
This is awesome
 
also auto func(std::vector<auto>&)
 
10:55 PM
Yup, I'm watching that video now
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
WHY AM I NOT IN JAPAN
 
@sehe Spontaneous combustion has been reported quite a few times, although it's hardly scientific fact. Also, I'm pretty sure that nobody, ever, has succeeded in actually breaking RSA or brute-forcing a key. They simply found alternative means of acquiring the key. I'm not saying that that's not a threat, it's just not a threat that's increased by lowering the bruteforce time.
 
@Puppy Good job pissing off the physicists.
 
yeah, it certainly seems that way.
 
10:59 PM
@AndyProwl Nasty.
 
oh well.
 
user1804599
lol
 
@Sofffia Somewhat disgusting.
Why not just use the Concepts Lite terse form?
 
I'll simply re-ask the question but permit any form of random event.
 
It's much better.
 
11:00 PM
like I dunno, the probability of all of a person's atoms spontaneously tunneling into the core of the Sun.
I don't think that's physically possible either.
 
@Rapptz They are not the same thing
 
I am well aware.
 
@Rapptz that comes with CL
 
But it documents intent 10x better.
 
user1804599
@Rapptz They are so angry now they combust spontaneously.
 
11:01 PM
it's simply unconstrained
 
Yeah which is silly.
In a C++ Concepts world, taking in unconstrained generic parameters is silly.
 
@Rapptz Agreed
 
@Rapptz it depends. Pros and cons I guess. You don't have to modify your interface every time you call a different function in the implementation. Also, this
(where Bjarne goes on about trade-offs between structural and nominal typing)
And I can imagine algorithms working, say, on a vector<auto> without caring what's inside the vector
 
what the fuck is vector<auto>?
 
@Rapptz From the example you commented as nasty
 
11:05 PM
I know but I just imagined it was equivalent to std::vector<T>
 
It is
 
but your newest comment makes it seem like it isn't
 
template<class Type> ... func(vector<Type>)
 
Yes, it is equivalent, T is unconstrained
you just use auto as a placeholder
 
@AndyProwl Again, silly. Just take in an Iterable or RandomAccess etc.
 
11:06 PM
and you don't have to write the awful template<typename... syntactic noise
 
Constraints are much better.
 
The fact that you can get rid of template<...> is amusing to me
 
This vector<auto> and const auto& stuff in parameters is stupid to me.
 
Not really
They are just tools
 
It's a natural extension of the current usage of auto IMO
 
11:07 PM
Unneeded tools.
It's abusing the keyword.
 
Having auto only for generic lambdas but not for regular functions is silly
 
Not every constraint should be a concept.
 
user1804599
Retarded inconsistency between lambdas and non-lambdas is retarded.
 
Indeed
 
There are some constraint which are simply easier to declared inline and use once.
 
11:08 PM
const auto& makes some sense.
std::vector<auto> is just retarded to me.
 
it's the same thing
 
It's "a vector of anything"
why is that retarded?
 
why would it be retarded
 
consider the following
void f(const std::vector<auto>& a, const auto& b)
I pass in f({ 1, 2, 3 }, "a"), would this compile or fail?
 
compile
 
11:11 PM
compile I presume
 
why?
 
because auto assumes two different meanings for the two arguments
 
user1804599
@Rapptz That should be equivalent to template<typename __a, typename __b> void f(const std::vector<__a>& a, const __b& b) IMO.
 
because the two autos are completely independent
 
@rightføld yeah
 
11:11 PM
@rightføld eh.
 
user1804599
Pretty much like with lambdas.
 
I see the point of using concepts to express intent and catch errors earlier, of course it's a valid one
But lambdas and non-lambdas should be treated equally, and once you have the auto placeholder defined in terms of template<typename T>, well then why not complete the analogy
 
@Sofffia @AndyProwl Well. It doesn't.
 
What doesn't?
 
it doesn't compile
 
11:13 PM
I guess it has to do with the {...} syntax.
 
even in the original template version it doesn't
@Sofffia yes
 
If you use naked {...} you can have your pain
 
OK, I though you were referring to the mismatch between the types
 
The whole {...} is std::initializer_list unless X is still baffling to me.
And I don't even want to try and remember X.
 
it'd work just fine if it was std::vector<int>.
the reason it doesn't compile is because it leads to bad inferring (i.e. can't infer T)
 
11:15 PM
Does it compile with "normal" templates?
 
but I don't see why this example is a problem, I mean speaking about T vs auto
 
Then it's not a problem of the auto syntax
 
the issue is with the initializer list
 
I was just bored.
 
I see
 
11:16 PM
but I still think it's bad.
I'll give one more example
 
You mean "the first real example"?
 
void f(const std::vector<auto>& a) {
    typename std::vector<auto>::value_type b = a[0]; // silly, sure but does this work?
}
 
I don't see why not.
 
isn't that a non-deduced context?
 
@AndyProwl No.
 
11:18 PM
decltype(a[0]) b = a[0];
BOOM
 
You're evading the question.
 
itt there is evasion
 
You are making silly examples to show problems that don't exists v0v
 
There's no evasion as I see it. auto isn't a template parameter.
 
@Rapptz why not? How does the compiler know the T which makes std::vector<T>::type have the same type as the initializer?
 
11:19 PM
feel free to file a bug if you think so
 
ah, well, there T is deduced from the argument
 
well you said that auto gets replaced with a template
I'm not sure where the confusion stemmed from.
 
It's like trying to demonstrate that std::unique_ptr is bad because you can do delete my_unique_ptr.get()
 
auto is different at every occurrence
 
That's a pretty bad gotcha.
IMO
 
11:21 PM
Why is it a gotcha? Again, auto isn't a template parameter
 
it's not a gotcha
it's just that auto introduces a new invented type argument at every occurrence
if you want repeated type names, use typename T and then repeat T
 
auto says: I'm going to deduce this type.
As it always did.
 
So I can only use std::vector<auto> in function parameters? :v
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl What if you are already using template?
 
user1804599
Do they come after the explicit template parameters?
 
user1804599
11:22 PM
Or is it illegal?
 
Should be illegal.
 
@Rapptz No, you can use it in variable declarations too
 
But why would you?
 
reasons
 
@thecoshman lol (just got back for a second to reply ;v)
 
user1804599
11:23 PM
@AndyProwl std::vector<auto> xs; // creates a template variable! :D
 
It doesn't even work apparently.
 
Because the language already defines auto in terms of template T
 
@AndyProwl What are you talking about?
 
@rightføld no that's illegal
@Rapptz I'm talking about your example
 
Which one?
 
11:23 PM
With auto used in a non-deduced context
 
I'm confused how that one is relevant.
 
That will not compile with CL
and it shouldn't
It compiles with templates and typename T because you're not deducing anything there
(I'm talking about typename std::vector<auto>::value_type b = a[0]; // silly, sure but does this work?)
 
mk
 
user1804599
For Styx I thought of making x.y syntactic sugar for (module in which x is defined).y x when x is not a module. Similar to ADL, except explicit and only on first parameter.
 
Why did I use decltype instead of auto before?
Who knows.
 
11:28 PM
The introduction of my proposal is 60 pages long. I think I have a problem
 
user1804599
Well Styx functions cannot have less or more than one parameter so that's that.
 
The terse syntax is "void func(Container c)"-like, right?
 
yeah
 
yeah
 
user1804599
yeah
 
11:29 PM
what bothers me is that you cannot have variables of concept type
Container c = ... is illegal atm
 
That bugs me too.
 
I hope they'll support this, I don't see why it should be forbidden
 
I think it's difficult.
What would it be equivalent to in C++11-ish?
 
eh, nothing I guess
 
auto c = ..; static_assert(Container<decltype(c)>(), "..."); (given pseudo-syntax for assertion)
 
11:31 PM
but it's really just like auto, except the compiler would make a check
yeah
 
user1804599
template<Container _T>
struct __t {
    using __type = _T;
};
__t<decltype(…)>::__type c = …;
 
does C++ have something similar to multiple subclassing?
 
I don't see it as necessary.
@corvid multiple subclassing?
 
user1804599
@corvid wat
 
user1804599
A class can have multiple subclasses, yes.
 
11:32 PM
you mean multiple inheritance? It has that too
 
multiple inheritance?
 
like in python how you can have something like:
 
C++ is probably the only language I know that supports multiple inheritance
Oh yeah, and Python too
Kinda
 
class Thing(OtherThing, YetAnotherThing, ThirdThing):
 
user1804599
That's called multiple inheritance and C++ supports it.
 
11:33 PM
> Languages that support multiple inheritance include: C++, Common Lisp (via Common Lisp Object System (CLOS)), EuLisp (via The EuLisp Object System TELOS), Curl, Dylan, Eiffel, Logtalk, Object REXX, Scala (via use of mixin classes), OCaml, Perl, Perl 6, POP-11, Python, and Tcl (built-in from 8.6 or via Incremental Tcl (Incr Tcl) in earlier versions).[5]
 
user1804599
Perl <3
 
@Rapptz Yup, the only two languages I know
 
user1804599
And what is EuLisp doing there in the wrong place in that list.
 
oh cool so you can do things like Mixins
 
I would never call my language Dylan
 
user1804599
11:34 PM
IT MUST BE AFTER Eiffel.
 
@corvid Don't do that, please.
 
@Sofffia what's wrong with it? Is it bad in C++?
 
multiple inheritance hurt my brain
also diamond problem
 
user1804599
ITT Jefffrey is terrible.
 
11:35 PM
no shit
that's why I'm here
 
I like multiple inheritance, makes certain things so much easier to handle
Although what I'm doing right now is probably horribly wrong. Ah well, learn best when it crashes and burns
 
good luck
 
user1804599
Multiple inheritance in Scala is cool.
 
user1804599
If you have class A extends M1 with M2 with M3 then M3 can override a method from M2 and call it with super.
 
I've yet to see or hear someone say that multiple inheritance in C++ is great
I've heard a lot say that you should avoid it like a plague on the other hand
 
11:38 PM
I use it a decent amount in python
is it any different in other languages?
 
And then I've read about the diamond problem and I just yelled a huge NOPE
@corvid In C++ it's nothing like in Python
Of course the C++ version have 500% more ways to cut yourself
Also super in Python is extremely retarded
 
I feel like the diamond problem is easy to avoid if you don't make the heirarchy stratified more than 2 levels
 
Just had to get that out of the way
 
@Sofffia What
 
user1804599
It sure is in Python 3.
 
11:42 PM
Why do I have to specify the name of the class to super
 
user1804599
It's a function treated specially by the compiler. It's a terrible horrible thing.
 
super(WhatTheActualFuckIsThis, whydoihavetohaveselfhere)
 
user1804599
It should either be a non-function or self and the superclass should always be specified explictly.
 
Just make it super(self).BOOM()
 
self is not enough context
 
user1804599
11:43 PM
Not a weird mix of them with special rules and inconsistent α-conversion.
 
And badfold is bad as usual
 
@CatPlusPlus Seems to be in every other language
I doubt Python is special in this regard
 
Because of compiler support
Which was added in Python 3
super() moves along MRO, self only gives you the most derived type of the object
 
user1804599
 
In Python 3 we have super() now
That's fine I guess
 
user1804599
11:49 PM
No. It's terrible.
 
Oh shut up jesus christ it's literally never an issue while explicit arguments actually were
And you can even still use them if you really want
 
user1804599
I get to like Python less every day.
 
laffo
 
user1804599
Stuff like update updating a dict in-place.
 
user1804599
The documentation is extremely difficult to search through.
 
11:59 PM
python has really good documentation imo, that's like half the reason it's so good
examples everywhere. I love really concise and practical examples
 
He just has to complain about something
 

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