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3:00 PM
^ interesting
 
lol so why are you counting 1,2,3 ...?
 
@EtiennedeMartel if I had to average {3,4,5} I'd know it should be 4, I didn't do any math to know that
 
yes you do
 
@Crowz Yes, you did.
 
33 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
user image
 
3:01 PM
@Crowz Yes you did. There's a function for that.
 
average{3,4,5} = cubert(60)
 
the number just came, I didn't have to do any ridiculous formula to do it
 
@Crowz are you telling us you are genius, the rest of here won't know the 893th fibonacci's number without calculating it ... & you just know by intuition?
 
@Crowz You did, but in your head.
 
@Crowz It didn't just come, you did the formula.
you just didn't perceive it conciously.
 
3:01 PM
3.914 = average{3,4,5}
 
Math isn't writing stuff down on paper.
 
your brain does a massive amount of mathematics every day.
 
@Crowz Ask someone who truly doesn't know any math to comput the average, and they'll be stuck. You use math, because you have learned math, and you have learned it so well that you didn't even realize that you used it
 
it is a mathematical machine.
 
also the brain is inherently mathematical
gradients yo
 
3:02 PM
after all
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, the witness was in error.
 
the answer can't just magic itself out of thin air.
no more in the brain than in a program.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 I know what looks right and I'd know when to be suspicious
 
speak for yourself
 
@Crowz If you want to just use this as an excuse to never ever do anything or learn anything, then feel free. If you want to get over this obstacle, then erase the word "math" from your vocabulary. Because it is not one big monolithic unit which is either learnt or not learnt. You can learn to compute averages without learning how to solve equations. You can learn to multiply matrices without understanding imaginary numbers, and so on.
You can learn the bits and pieces that you need, without having to understand everything ever
 
Ell
3:02 PM
Mathematics is in everything
 
@Crowz woah there, do you score high in maths classes? or your 'intuition' usually get you wrong?
 
@Ell s/ in//
 
ok so you're in a rocket ship going at v ~ c. what speed is the earth going
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 usually like a B but I don't have the slightest clue what I am doing
 
are you going to intuitively think around the same speed lol
@Telkitty猫咪咪 grades are bs
 
3:03 PM
@Crowz you don't calculate first data moment "intuitively". It's an abstract concept. You have to know what it is.
 
caltech students have shitty grades
 
@TonyTheLion Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'd be interested in clicking that link if there was a decent or notable Starcraft 2 player live on the other end.
 
@DeadMG Yeah, he sucks so hard. He probably can't even beat a Bronze player.
 
3:04 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf tell that to your teacher
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 I told it to my teachers several times
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 same
 
@Crowz that's why you have a B
 
why does he have a B
F
how on earth do you do calculus without knowing algebra
 
3:05 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf because math is a stupid subject and the classes are really weird
 
Can it
 
stupid or not, you have to know it :F
 
@Crowz It's not a stupid subject but mathematics education does suck horrifically.
 
Ell
Do you think?
Howcome?
 
my maths education was pretty ok
I enjoyed mathematical analysis on my Uni a lot
 
3:07 PM
well, in my experience, it mostly revolves around asking the student to pretend that they are a CPU or a database or both.
 
@DeadMG yep. Most math classes I know just say remember this, so I remember it and just use it on the test. I don't see how it's education at all, I'm not learning a real skill
 
even though different people have radically different mathematics abilities, the speed is fixed, so it's good for practically nobody
 
Ell
My maths education was pretty solid
 
and the "assessment" has little to do with any mathematical anything.
 
in PHP, 33 mins ago, by Neal
Anyone wanna go for Kosher lunch in NYC today? :-D
:-D
 
3:08 PM
@Crowz to learns skills you have to use it actually. Not just remember. Look, at least you know how to calculate average value :D
 
@Ell Your examinations could probably have been solved by a pretty trivial program.
 
That's why I liked creative subject classes, they posit a challenge for you to solve independently through creative thought. Math was just rigid rules, hierarchy, and memory.
 
Ell
@DeadMG I take it you mean the problems in them? as in, not reading the paper etc.
which may be true
But programs can solve a lot of things
 
yeah, I wouldn't ask a program to OCR that shit.
 
School scores are better than most other things in life ... at least it is a leveled play ground. Imagine you work ass off to buy your dream house and the guy in the mercede just inherited a couple from the family. Yes, grades a BS, but it is the least evil
 
Ell
3:09 PM
but in order to write that program, you need to understand the maths behind it, do you not?
 
@Ell Right. It's about the complexity of program required.
@Ell Of course you do.
 
@ScottW ZOMG! You're back!
 
@Crowz I don't care about your endless pity party, but the bottom line is this, and you cannot argue that this is not correct: you know some mathematics quite well. You can count, you can compute averages, you can solve a wide range of math problems. Therefore, the claim "I cannot learn maths" is trivially false. Deal with it, it is simply not true. The next interesting question is how much math can you learn, and how can you best learn it, but hey, you'll have to figure that part out
 
that's why writing a program to solve a problem >>> "Derrrp, let's memorize the solution and regurgitate it in the examination"
 
@Crowz Programming is a very creative subject based on maths, which is also very creative actually.
 
3:10 PM
but scrap the "I cannot learn math" mental model, because you have disproven that yourself already
 
@ScottW did you get somewhat vexed? :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz people always say that, but if something only has one answer, how could it possibly be creative?
 
@ScottW hahhaha
 
@Crowz by the means of getting the answer. And programming doesn't have "one" answer.
 
Ell
@DeadMG but then, you need to start off at least by memorising. But as you memorise more, things start to slot together and you begin to understand
although all of my teachers made me understand when they taught it
 
3:11 PM
@BartekBanachewicz that's like drawing the exact same picture as someone but using different brushes and paints. Why is that considered creative?
 
@Crowz why it shouldn't be?
 
Ell
@Crowz I wouldn't go there, creativity is a highly subjective thing (imho()
ahhh unmatched brackets!
 
@Ell Nope.
 
Ell
@DeadMG well, in your opinion
 
there's no reason to memorize it when you could ask your hard drive to memorize it.
it's a lot more effective at memorizing things than any human.
 
3:12 PM
@ScottW I've never had a math test where the problem didn't have only one answer
 
Ell
but your hard drive would be memorising the program
 
@DeadMG cache
 
Ell
you can't memorise the answers to an exam before you know them
so you memorise the method
the program
 
@Ell What's wrong with that?
 
@Crowz No, it is like drawing a picture of the same motive, but doing it differently
 
Ell
3:13 PM
@DeadMG nothing, that is my point, that they teach maths well (imho)
 
@Ell Why should I memorize a program when I could ask my hard drive to memorize a program?
 
Ell
@DeadMG because if you don't memorise it, you won't learn how it works
 
Have you ever been to an art museum? Place is flooded with pictures of landscapes or nude women.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes: You always seem to join at the worst time xD
 
How is that creative?
 
Ell
3:13 PM
try writing without memorising the alphabet
 
@ScottW <3
 
Ell
you'd have to look up every letter each time you wanted to use it
 
But people find different ways to draw the motive
 
@Ell No, it's fucking dumb, because you get penalized for having an internal hard drive that wasn't designed for perfectly memorizing programs.
@Ell I thought you just agreed with me that if you can write a program to solve a problem, then you effectively understand both the problem and the solution you've programmed?
 
Just like people have different ways to write a program, even if the end result has the same behavior. And in math, people have different proofs, different algorithms, and different ways to find solutions
 
3:14 PM
@Xeo What happened?
 
Man, I was looking forward to going to the pub with a coworker.
turns out he forgot about it and planned something else for tonight
 
Ell
@DeadMG I do agree that you can write a program to solve it. But when you memorise the methods of solving a maths problem and use it enough, you have learned how that program was written
 
@Ell You learned how that program was written when you wrote it.
 
Ell
which is good enough - you can't expect everyone to come up with pythagorean theory etc.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hyoukai, who was the host, has a headache and decided to stop for today
 
3:16 PM
Ah.
I'm still game if you are.
 
Xeo
And the other guy is afk for a bit
 
Wanna try my new build against organics.
BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN
 
Xeo
heh
 
Flame of the Firehawk => best shield.
 
Xeo
I'll get me something to drink and then we can do some sidemissions, maybe
 
3:18 PM
oh Zelda
Soon you'll be watching ponies
 
@Ell So why bother having a second step? You learned the solution when you wrote the program - congrats, move on.
 
is he finally gone :3
 
Ell
@DeadMG you mean, just learn how the solution came about as opposed to learning the solution?
 
@DeadMG @ScottW @Xeo @R.MartinhoFernandes @jalf is crow finally gone :3
 
3:21 PM
@Ell you can't write a program for a solution you don't understand.
 
Xeo
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Don't do that again.
 
@ScottW lol
 
Xeo
Also, you can see that yourself perfectly fine in the top-right corner
 
Ell
3:23 PM
@DeadMG well, you can write a programme for a smaller solution with some assumptions
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf ok, I have to ask: what's with those dots you keep typing?
 
@ScottW you cock
 
So is there a channel that I can get help in?
 
3:24 PM
@KevinMelkowski undefined reference meaning probably it cannot find the definition of that function
@KevinMelkowski normally Stack Overflow
 
@KevinMelkowski for a C++ chat no unfortunately. provide full code as a gist. either you're calling it wrong, you didn't define it, or you gave it in the wrong order to the linker
 
@Ell That's not the solution, then is it? You could also memorize a smaller solution with some assumptions.
 
@KevinMelkowski there is a website designed for that very purpose
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf That's a lot of code
 
@jalf you really want SO overrun with "why doesn't my code work?"
 
3:26 PM
@ScottW I know.
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Yes, absolutely. It's a lot better than overrunning the chat with it
 
user784668
unique_ptr
 
Ell
@DeadMG well, you have to learn a smaller scoped solution to ease you into the higher level things - you don't learn about negative numbers when you are in nursery because you don't have the intellectual capacity to understand (not you, just nursery kids)
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf are you saying its not already?
 
true, figured I'd ask for some quick help before posting on the site. My last couple of questions, really detailed, has not been answered very well.
 
3:26 PM
 
SO is designed for programming questions. They have mechanisms for dealing with bad ones.
 
on the actual site
 
Ell
which is why you gradually make the problems/solutions wider and wider and with less assumptions
 
@KevinMelkowski blergh pointers
 
@KevinMelkowski I think "some quick help" is incompatible with "that's a lot of code". If you have a lot of code, you're not going to get quick help.
 
user784668
3:27 PM
std::unique_ptr<void, HandleDeleter> handle{INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE};
 
just include a main and the function; anything else is trivial
 
aren't we all going to now read and debug it like no tomorrow?
@Fanael why is your code shouting?
 
because magic macro constants are all caps. e.g. cplusplus.com/reference/cmath
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Because <windows.h>
 
Lol Bartek, yeah but the lot of code works. It's a small portion that is just include statements and function calls to the working code isn't working :).
 
3:28 PM
include only the relevant call, the header and the function
 
@Ell What relevance does that have to programming vs memorization?
 
Anyway thanks, I'll post it up tomorrow
 
@KevinMelkowski just do g++ -o Sort <all codez filez here>
 
Ell
@DeadMG I think we are getting lost with the programming idea, gimme a sec and I'll type out why I think the current maths education system works
 
@KevinMelkowski Looking at existing questions you've asked, they are either really long or have walls of code in them, two things that will put off potential answerers. You should try give a short example of your problem and a short, succinct description.
Just some tips
 
3:29 PM
the shorter the code the more people will attempt to answer it. this is where tl;dr came from. no one wants to read pages of code to find you forgot a *
 
> I've been working on DirectX lately and I have a Array byte>^
tee hee
 
0
Q: Is structure definition inside another structure allowed in c?

maheshThis is bizarre. I haven't read anywhere that defining a structure inside another structure definition allowed in C. But this link says its allowed. http://www.c4learn.com/structure-within-structure-nested.html Is this true?

That website
 
Ell
1) You memorise the method to find a solution to a small problem (you may not *understand* it at this point)
2) You apply this method to more and more problems (practice)
3) You are given a problem slightly out of scope of your memorised method, you try to apply your memorised method to it and get it to work
4) you then realise how your method works because you've applied it to something outside of your *memorised* domain
 
@Ell Contrast to the alternative.
1) You write a program that solves the problem. You understand the solution because you just coded it up. You have the solution stored for all time, and can move on to more difficult things immediately.
2) It's impossible to do badly because the human brain was not designed for perfect retention of random mathematical formulae.
 
Ell
3:38 PM
@DeadMG What if someone isn't clever enough to come up with a program/solution themselves?
 
@TonyTheLion i really hate people that don't even try
I have a problem, help me, whine whine -_-
@ScottW i love you too
 
@ScottW Coming from you, that means something.
dayum
 
@Ell Firstly, that's what teachers are for. Secondly, it's questionable as to whether such a person should be pursuing an education in mathematics. Thirdly, if you don't sit examinations at arbitrary pre-defined points with an arbitrary pre-defined syllabus, there's no reason why you can't go at whatever speed suits you, even if that is slowly.
 
Ell
@DeadMG They are good points, but practically, how would your level be assessed without exams with syllabuses?
 
i did this on IRC once; i got screamed at for being sexist .... you have to say this man/woman
 
3:41 PM
@ScottW oh you
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf I hate people who dont search, theres an operator overloading question that just got asked, its exactly the same as one that got asked yesterday
 
i'm tempted to answer enough questions to get rep so i can throw all those questions in a bin
 
@Ell If you have written a program that successfully solves the problem, then you have completed that problem. What more assessment is required?
 
@Ell hmm this was my point too. proofs and self assessment
if you can rederive something it's likely you can use it
 
in JavaScript, 19 mins ago, by Gacnt
It's hard to sense sarcasm over the internet with no tone of voice you fuck faces
haha awesome
 
Ell
3:46 PM
@DeadMG well, how is this different to a regular maths exam? they give you a problem, you solve it
 
@BartekBanachewicz @LightnessRacesinOrbit would you to stop commenting on pulled stuff, if you think something needs to be changed make a new PR for it
 
@Ell Er, one involves creating programs which are perfectly stored and assessed by machine, and another requires the student to precisely memorize all solutions and a human to examine them.
 
@thecoshman we're discussing, fuck off. :)
 
Ell
@DeadMG But not all mathematicians can programme, and not all want to
I believe our discussion was about the maths education system, although I may have confused it mid discussion?
 
a mathematical formula is a program, it's just interpreted by a human.
all mathematicians, by extension, are programmers, although admittedly, there are a number of skills required for computer interpretation which human interpretation doesn't require.
 
3:49 PM
@BartekBanachewicz commenting on a merged PR is stupid though, it's done. If people want to suggest changes, they should suggest changes, not quibble over something that has been done already
 
on the other hand, not all prospective mathematicians have a perfect hard drive storing all their memories of random shit they'll never need to remember in the future.
the difference is that working with computers is the way that our society is inevitably trending towards.
 
@thecoshman you can only comment on commits
 
@thecoshman what now
 
@BartekBanachewicz now that I look at it, std::array wouldn't work in my situation, would it?
 
Ell
@DeadMG I agree on this
 
3:50 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ignore him :F
 
Ell
but I disagree that mathematicians are by extension programmers
I think.
 
@Pawnguy7 if you know the world size in compile time it would
 
Ell
@deadmg If we used your system and had people write programmes to solve problems, what would stop people memorising programmes? (thus relatively putting those with a bad memory at a disadvantage)
 
@Ell Er, why would they memorize a program? It's on their hard drive for all eternity.
 
Ell
3:54 PM
@DeadMG So they didn't have to learn it. If memorising comes more naturally, why would they take the hard route if they just want the grades?
 
@BartekBanachewicz True. I imagine I could make that assumption, as I don't know how it would handle changing size. Although, if I did that, wouldn't it have magic numbers, basically?
 
@Ell Memorising doesn't come more naturally than having a hard drive memorise it for you.
the human brain did not evolve to perfectly memorize mathematical formulae.
 
@Ell who said learning the solution is hard?
 
Ell
@DeadMG but let's say I couldn't write a programme to do it, why wouldn't I google for one and memorise it?
 
and omg are we still talking about whether or not @Crowz can learn math ?
 
3:55 PM
@Pawnguy7 I see no real reason to prefer array over vector if that's what you are asking about
 
@Ell How would that be different to now?
and secondly, it would be a waste of your time, because you could instead be spending that time pursuing an education in something that you're actually skilled at/want to do
 
wat. what is this quibble over now
 
Ell
@DeadMG well that's my point - even if we took your system and made people write their own solutions, they would still have the option to just memorise a programme
 
@Ell Having that option is not a problem.
 
Ell
which is why I don't think your system would provide better education than the current one
 
3:56 PM
the problem is requiring it.
 
what was his system?
 
in fact
 
Ell
@DeadMG I don't think the current system requires it
 
having that option is an advantage.
@Ell You cannot succeed in mathematical education if you don't memorize the formulae.
 
Ell
@DeadMG why do you think that? What formulae do you need to learn?
 
3:57 PM
@void-pointer I never downvoted it :/ I just thought the answer was oddly out of place and your original wording grossly inaccurate. I've suggested a few more wording changes, and most importantly a rename from the glaring misnomer is_alias. With that, I am willing to grant you +1 for effort, even though it should technically a new (self-answered) question, or a blog post, perhaps :) Cheers — sehe 49 secs ago
 
@DeadMG that is not true
 
@Ell Let me re-phrase that. How many notes did you take into your mathematics exam?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ^ turd polish?
 
i have seen many people rederive on the spot
 
Damn, I just spent over one hour writing an answer on a reddit thread
the fuck is wrong with me?
 
3:58 PM
karma?
 
Someone challenged the usefulness of value types in C++
 
... yeah no point
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok. Also, for the design, I was thinking, most of the time, I pick by x and y, and rarely switch depth layers - for example, of the two times I have used the second layer thus far, it only used that layer throughout the entire function. Should I have a setDepth() and getColor(x, y) uses the active depth?
 
3:58 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf If the examination didn't require it, then it was a waste of effort.
 
Ell
@DeadMG None. But how would you invigilate notes taken into the exam?
 
@Ell Why should they be required to be invigilated?
 
Ell
Well, you could take in the whole written method
 
@Ell Why should that be a problem?
 
Ell
Because it's cheating
 
3:59 PM
@Pawnguy7 getColor(x,y) should get the color of the topmost depth available
 
Are you ready?
 
Ell
that doesn't show you know anything at all
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Something's coming on R#'s Twitter feed.
 
@DeadMG you have notes on your exams???
 

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