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5:00 PM
@DogPlusPlus Pssssssssst.
Wanna help me with some deferred shading stuff? :O
 
Ask away.
Puppy's website can wait. :Đ
 
template <typename UnicodeSequence,
          wheels::EnableIf<is_unicode_sequence<UnicodeSequence>>...>
Hmm, would I need is_unicode_sequence as complete type there?
Or only on POI?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh and I totally forgot the resource cache I improved at @Xeo's sanity's expense and @DeadMG's advice. <3. Supports hot-swapping and moving of all resource types that have move cosntructors / assignment operators.
 
user142019
@ScottW since ages.
 
You can even save the old value if you really need to.
 
5:03 PM
I'd go with PoI, but if push comes to shove you can use dirty tricks to keep the primary template defined empty anyway.
(Things like template<typename T, typename U> struct foo<U, T> {}; being a fallback non-primary specialization.)
 
is it valid to stick non-ASCII UTF8 characters into xml comments?
 
Why wouldn't it?
Assuming <? xml encoding="utf-8" ?>
 
silly question, html is xml and allows utf8. For some reason I was thinking that xml didn't allow non-ascii. Don't know why I thought that
 
@Mooing: yup, non-ascii utf8 characters are 100% valid in xml (even in comments).
 
So T | T is iso (2, T). What's the generalization? T | T ... | T iso (N, T)?
 
5:07 PM
Everything nowadays allows utf8, you can even signal utf-8 on CSS files. @charset "utf-8"; and you're there.
 
@LucDanton (2, T)! 1 is the unit type.
@LucDanton Unions are sums, and tuples are products. Since T + T + ... T = N * T, yes, your conclusion.
 
Blaarrrrrrgh.
Deferred Shading is hard. :c
 
Is it legal to redeclare alias templates? (token-by-token-same).
 
As discussed before I'm okay with my variant not being a coproduct. I'm investigating how hard it is to use it as one (or to implement one I guess).
@R.MartinhoFernandes No idea. Can't redeclare type synonyms though, so I'd wager you can't.
Well, can you?
 
Screw it, not even trying.
 
5:10 PM
@sehe I did that and I also helped give EtiennedeMartel a function_traits type trait. I specified it for up to 5 arguments because I don't know how to do something similar with variadics. :c
 
It's not a good enough idea given the easy alternative.
 
What's the proper name for a software module parsing hardware information (like sensor reading, motor responses) and preparing/sending resulting information to other parts of an app?
 
According to GCC you can. What you can't is several times the same member type. I'll try not to remember this.
 
@mrówa Hardware information module?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm haven't thought about that one. Nice.
 
5:11 PM
Looking at my templated code, some of the more hardcore parts... Visual Studio's popup description really sucks for templates.
 
@mrówa Something about probes or probing.
 
To a template-uninitiated user it looks like necromancy.
 
@DogPlusPlus And honestly, there isn't much that can be done about it.
Time to :make! and see if this thing works.
 
@sehe See function_traits (Essentially boiled down from what we did before with Callback)
 
> error: static assertion failed: can only normalize known-valid sequences
 
5:13 PM
I wish I could make that variadic. =[
 
Do variadic typedefs exist?
 
@LucDanton probe is nice, but one way - and when it also sends data back to hardware? Like diods, ucpu, steers other motors?
 
@ThePhD Of course, a using can be templated on any parameter, just like a regular templat.e
 
5:14 PM
I got a bunch of empty beer bottles on my desk.
 
@DeadMG So when I do something wonky like:
 
@EtiennedeMartel Get some more!
 
typedef T0 arg0_type;
typedef T1 arg1_type;
typedef T2 arg2_type;
typedef T3 arg3_type;
typedef T4 arg4_type;
 
I can simplify that down into a using ?
 
5:15 PM
No
 
user142019
No
 
er, wat?
 
user142019
You can't simplify it.
 
You could use Boost.PP to generate it but then again you should probably generate the whole class that does this
 
user142019
5:15 PM
It's as simple as it can get.
 
That's wonky and not worth fixing; did I mention looking into function arguments is pointless?
If your "generic" tools look into the arguments, they are not generic.
 
Like, if it wasn't T0 and T1, and just typename T ... <--- how would I typedef / using statement that?
 
Why do you need those typedefs anyway
 
And so you have lots of non-generic specialised code, which makes sense for something that isn't generic.
 
You have to suffer for the end user, basically. Often, the end user is you.
 
5:18 PM
Or just not look into function arguments and write truly generic code.
 
I don't need them per se, it's just that I didn't have variadics at hand at the time. Now that I do I wanted to know if I could do some code-collapsing and stuff.
 
@StackedCrooked What?
 
I think it's a copy.
 
5:19 PM
It's a conversion
fyi (T)x and T(x) is the same thing
 
Because you're specifically asking for a new std::string ?
 
@ThePhD It's not about variadics.
 
Well not for UDTs
 
Do you even use arg3_type anywhere?
 
But I'm not sure why do you ask this
What copy
 
5:20 PM
@StackedCrooked What you have there has both a conversion and a copy.
 
@CatPlusPlus Whether std::string(p) creates a new copy.
 
Well obviously
 
Do you even lift?
 
@StackedCrooked Of course it does. What else would it do?
 
I thought so too, just the name "conversion constructor" makes me a little confused.
 
5:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, this was just a what-if question really...
 
It's a new object regardless of what p is
 
Nevermind me. x3
 
@ThePhD Right, as I said, it's pointless.
 
Just like Person(p) would be a new object
 
@DogPlusPlus Do you have time to hold my noob hand and guide me through the horrible Deferred Shading maze of doom & death? :c
 
5:23 PM
As I've said, ask away.
 
Oh, wait, it actually works. I just forgot to tag the result as valid.
 
> typename std::remove_cv<typename std::remove_reference<_To>::type
 
user142019
> panic: runtime error: invalid memory address or nil pointer dereference
 
In one error message. Suffice to say my template parameters don't look like _To. And yet GCC claims that's a declaration in my code.
 
user142019
Dammit Go.
 
5:24 PM
@LucDanton Again? :(
Dammit, tagging the result as valid will mean more forward declarations.
 
Dammit Go why do you not silently continue when there's an error
 
Dammit Go, Y U NO GO?
 
@DogPlusPlus Okay, so I've verified that my Projection and View matrices are correct and well-formatted and playing nicely (thanks for the hand-writen equation!). At the moment, I'm forward-rendering the model behind the display of the 4 g-buffers (Frame 1 and Frame 2). The view, projection, world, and other parameters are the same. The 4 g-buffers are: Diffuse, Specular, Normals, Depth.
Top-Left Diffuse, Top-Right Specular, Bottom-Left Normals, Bottom-Right Depth
 
Can I declare a primary template, and then define it with default template parameters? Guess not. That might wreak havoc somewhere.
 
When I change the DepthStencilState, I get a better image. I'm beginning to think it's solely because I don't have my state variables set up properly.
From the first frame, you only see what each buffer clears to.
In the second frame (and all subsequent frames), it stays utterly black.
(or completely transparent)
 
5:30 PM
Neat, one less // TODO: reintroduce when GCC can deal with it.
 
the g-buffers formats are all R8G8B8A8_UNORM, save for the Depth Buffer (which is R32 float)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I declared myself incompetent in that matter not long ago.
 
What change do you perform on DepthStencilState?
 
AGKHEGWERHG fuck. Now as_code_point_range needs decltype(itself).
I need to stop and rethink this crap.
 
That does seem really intricately interlocked :s
 
5:33 PM
I have a UnicodeSequenceIterator trait that simply defers to the result of as_code_point_range.
 
Welp. Fuck coproducts.
 
But now I need it to put in the tagged result.
I just need to add a level of indirection.
Which to be honest means $ git reset --hard # let's call that a spike and start for real.
 
typename result_of::as_code_point_range<Args...>::type!
 
@LucDanton Yeah.
 
(Or you might want to change the iterator actually.)
 
5:35 PM
@DogPlusPlus For the frames above, the DepthStencil is set up like this: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/…
Also, are those the right formats to have the gbuffer in?
Or should I be using something a little more... precise?
 
All this mess is mostly to support U"" and u"" strings.
 
Let's try to improve recursive variants instead!
 
Oh, and icu::UnicodeString too.
So yeah, pretty damn important features, otherwise I would just say fuck off and work on something else meanwhile.
 
Also Sorry if my variable convention is unreadable @DogPlusPlus >.<
 
I need paper.
PAPER
 
5:38 PM
Does your value_ptr require a complete type as argument?
 
Can't design without paper.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dead trees?
 
@LucDanton I am honestly not sure about that.
@EtiennedeMartel Sounds scary.
 
My clone_ptr appears to delegate everything to std::unique_ptr, so I guess not.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds less scary now.
 
5:39 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Yes. My design module is fueled by the sound of wood harvesters.
Not really. The sound of paper recycling facilities works just as well.
But am I demotivated now, so I'll just slack around for a while.
 
Yaay!
Slack around with us. <3
 
It just dawned on me that the UTF-32 (little-endian) BOM is ambiguous wrt UTF-16 (little-endian) BOM followed by a zero character.
 
@MooingDuck Dat oversight.
 
BOM is not meant for identification
 
@CatPlusPlus I can't imagine any other use for it
 
5:42 PM
@ThePhD For the color diffuse, it's enough to have 8 bits per channel. Depth needs to be given priority, like you did, usually 24 for depth and 8 for stencil. Normals need precision, at least twice more. You can encode normals in an RGBA8 format by storing the x vector in the lower 16 bits and the y vector in the upper 16 bits. And then reconstruct the z with a simple cross product and renormalization.
 
@ThePhD It's not an oversight. It was never meant to be used like that.
 
It's for determining byte order
Hence it's called Byte Order Mark
 
@CatPlusPlus oh right
 
Oh.
Hm.
I guess you'll have to identify text some other way.
 
wonder what various programs do when given a file that begins with "<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>" in a file encoded in UTF16.
 
5:43 PM
... I can't believe that's all the convincing you needed
 
@ScottW yeah and that's retarded in any normal language
 
@MooingDuck Crap out
 
@DogPlusPlus Should I just make it R32 G32 or R16G16 for the normals, then?
 
You really need to know the encoding before you start decoding anything
 
Time to beat overload resolution into submission.
 
5:44 PM
ok
 
Feel free, R8G8B8A8 "trickery" is just used for platforms that don't have many types of data encoding available.
R16G16 would suffice, 32 is the thing nowadays.
 
For XML and HTML you can start decoding with ASCII until you encounter encoding information and then you just restart
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm sure they can deduce that it's UTF16, just wondering what happens when they're later told it's something else. Hopefully they'd ignore that, or show an error.
 
@MooingDuck I'm sure the XML spec calls that ill-formed.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure, but that doesn't mean it can't happen
 
5:45 PM
@DogPlusPlus I read somewhere that all the buffers have to have the same number of bits. Is that true?
 
But if the input is not ASCII-compatible then you're shit out of luck
 
Hey, this is a stupid question but can i build windows apps using visual studio 2012 on a windows 7 PC ?
 
@MooingDuck Yeah, but I meant that the correct behaviour is to error out.
 
@MooingDuck How do you want to deduce UTF-16?
 
Of course, shitty tools abound especially with XML, so I won't bet anything about practice.
 
5:45 PM
@CatPlusPlus fine, other way around then, file is UTF8, but the xml declaration says UTF-16.
 
@SteveJobs You mean actual Windows applications? Not WinRT?
 
Then it's easier to gracefully error out
 
@CatPlusPlus The recommended algorithm looks for a BOM before that.
 
@EtiennedeMartel deployment for app store.
 
@ThePhD Well, that's a part of the deferred pipeline and the notion of MRTs, it needs to be able to map to everything. Maybe in the future we'll have freeform mapping.
 
5:46 PM
@CatPlusPlus I'd imagine it's not all that hard. I know IE can deduce many encodings.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, yeah, I'm just musing I didn't really read the XML spec forever
You don't deduce, you guess
 
@MooingDuck Ideally it uses the recommended algorithm, which cannot deduce many encodings. (if it has something better they should give feedback to improve the recommended one)
 
user142019
@SteveJobs yes, you can use Visual Studio 2012 to build Windows 7 applications.
 
user142019
(And yes, it's a stupid question.)
 
@SteveJobs I have honestly no idea. But I think you need Win8 for that.
 
5:47 PM
It's not really a disabling characteristic, there's always something to stuff in.
 
@DogPlusPlus Hm.. .. do you forsee any bad consequences of running a 32-32-32-32 (128) buffer for everything, then?
 
@ThePhD Memory footprint if your thing is massive.
 
You can't deduce 8-bit encodings for example
 
Um. Well, there's about 6 g-buffers total.
 
@ScottW windows 8
 
5:48 PM
I don't ever plan on using more than that.
 
Well non-UTF old ones I mean
 
5
Q: Can you build Win 8 apps on Windows 7 with VS 2012?

WildaBeastI have the Professional edition of VS 2012 installed on Windows 7. When I go to start new projects, there are really no new types over VS 2010. When I tried to follow along with creating a WRL component as at:- http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/vstudio/jj155856.aspx I get a HRESULT exce...

@SteveJobs Thanks to Google, I found that ^
 
@CatPlusPlus Standard practice is to use localisation information for that.
 
What's the biggest resolution a screen can have these days?
 
I know
 
5:48 PM
2500 x 1600 ?
 
But it's still guessing
And hoping
 
(There is also a subtle message in what I just said).
 
@CatPlusPlus no, but you can make an educated guess
 
It's kind of like file formats
If you don't know the format, the file is garbage
 
(2500 x 1600) x (32 x 4) = 512000000 bits of data ....
 
user142019
5:49 PM
Go y u no == on slices.
 
@ThePhD The way I approach everything in 3D graphics is from the bare minimum of what I want to do. And then go up. For example, you can easily recalc the z axis just by applying some basic math ( z = sqrt(1 - x^2 - y^2) )
 
That's... 51.8 Megabytes of buffer space.
 
@ScottW Can you develop Win7 apps on XP?
 
(Actually file formats are easier here because they include identifying headers usually)
Encoded text is a binary blob
 
That's not too bad on modern hardware, but older hardware will choke...
 
5:50 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Yes?
 
I guess you could try the decoding specified and, if it excepts, try the others sequentially, in case you get lucky?
 
user142019
> Regarding operator overloading, it seems more a convenience than an absolute requirement. Again, things are simpler without it.
 
@DogPlusPlus Alright, I'll try R16 and G16 then
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes HMHMHM
I see.
 
user142019
What the fuck. Just make them functions with special syntax.
 
user142019
5:50 PM
It ain't that hard.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Win7 or Win8
Because there's nothing special about Win7 you know
 
@ThePhD man that's a fucking lot
 
@MartinJames How do you know you got lucky? You can only discard UTF-8 because it has invalid sequences, but in old 8-bit encodings all bytes are valid. (minus a few rare exceptions=
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm...
 
My engine grew to 150 files at some point too, but then I realized wtf I was doing and started kicking shit out because I've realized I am reinventing the wheel :)
 
5:51 PM
Program cannot tell if the data makes 100% sense
 
You need a human to look at the result and tell you if it makes sense.
 
No, wait, I lost the thread that doesn't follow from previous
 
@BartekBanachewicz He's encoding normal information in a texture (deferred rendering), that's actually little. But acceptable.
 
@DogPlusPlus R16G16 (or any variant tha thas 2 compenents nad 32 bits) doesn't exist in DXGI_FORMAT. =[
 
I told him to recalc the z axis on the fly from the 16-bit x and y.
 
5:52 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm having trouble finding information on it, but some places call it "codepage sniffing". Uses heuristics and letter usages to guess the most likely codepage.
 
@DogPlusPlus no, I ,was talking about his work in general
 
I'll have to go with the 4x 8 and do some bit packing
 
@ThePhD Encode it in a RGBA8 :P
 
@MooingDuck That's based on locale. I can link you to the W3C algorithm. Sec.
 
5:53 PM
or wait
 
The program can tell if data is decoded properly if the data is structured, but decoded properly doesn't mean valid
 
@DogPlusPlus doesn't directX have floating-point-based framebuffers?
 
Bah you know what I mean
 
@MooingDuck That depends on the corpus. It's not recommended, because it's not better than the alternatives.
 
I can do R32G32B32A32, but that's 51.8 megabytes of data per frame buffer on a 2500 x 1600 screen
 
5:53 PM
For HDR, yes. half-floats, like OpenGL.
 
But the overarching point is
You should know the encoding beforehand
 
Ask @Cat how much 52Megs is
 
If the useful hints (out-of-band info, BOM, invalid UTF-8, locale) are not enough to determine it, default to Windows1252, and let the user fix it if broken.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh certainly
 
5:54 PM
Everything else is just last-resort fallback
 
times 4 or 6, that's either 204 MB or 312 MB worth of Video Memory.
 
@ThePhD DXGI_FORMAT_R16G16_FLOAT = 34,
 
That's a massive memory foorptint for a graphics card.
@DogPlusPlus o.0
 
Hey @Cat I have a nice idea but it takes 52MB of RAM so I think I am not going to use it what do you think?
 
@BartekBanachewicz 52MB
 
5:54 PM
hides
 
@ThePhD You need an entire frame 6 times?
 
@CatPlusPlus For the g-buffer, I have to have the buffers laid out in video memory (one frame buffer for each different type of component I'm storing).
I'm only illustrating the extreme wasteful case.
 
which still is acceptable
 
5:56 PM
That is, 32 bits per component, 4 components per pixel, 2500 x 1600 monitor.
 
Duality eats 1 GB of memory, but most of that is due to the lighting information being encoded in 512x512x512 voxels.
 
even crappy ATI shit sold in walmart has at least 1Gig now
 
Yeah, I shouldn't be taking 306 MB just for the g-buffer though, so I'm definitely gonna tooone it down and just use some math.
 
@ThePhD oooooohhh division scary
 
0
Q: What happens in the CPU when there is no user code to run?

YonyIt sounds reasonable that the os/rtos would schedule an "Idle task". In that case, wouldn't it be power consuming? (it sounds reasonable that the idle task will execute: while (true) {} )

^^ Send to SU?
 
5:57 PM
It's just finding a balance between performance, quality and memory footprint.
 
or allowing the user to pick.
 
Well, I'll work it out with a 32-bit, 8-bits/16-bits per 4/2 components now.
Seeing as I was blind and totally missed R16G16 >.>
 
With my primary approach, depth of field actually increases performance. And so do smudgy glossy reflections. :D
 

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