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3:00 PM
@TonyTheLion Hm?
 
@Telkitty I see something on the chicken head .. whats that, cake dressing ?
 
user142019
@TonyTheLion has been on reddit for hours
 
Tony lives on reddit. <3
 
user1357851
@KhaledAKhunaifer hen comb
 
has anyone played around with google Go?
 
3:04 PM
@JustinMeiners yes
 
@BartekBanachewicz what did you think about it?
 
user142019
@JustinMeiners yes
 
@Zoidberg same question
 
user142019
It's good.
 
@JustinMeiners if it was more popular, it would be a nice language. Lack of backwards compatibility with anything helps it a lot.
 
user142019
3:05 PM
Except the syntax is horrible.
 
what types of programs do you think it is most useful for?
 
"if it was more popular, it would be a nice language" wait what
 
user142019
Concurrent ones.
 
It's a general purpose language
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh
 
3:06 PM
PHP is quite popular.
Just saying.
 
@JustinMeiners Wanking.
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes At least PHP is good for one thing: a counterexample.
 
user142019
@R.MartinhoFernandes he is not implying that popular languages are by definition nice.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I meant that it is nice, but I don't really feel like writing/learning it because of limited userbase
 
user142019
3:07 PM
He is saying that if Go were more popular, Go would be nice.
 
@Zoidberg He is implying that popularity has something to do with it.
 
@Zoidberg no - he is implying that unpopular languages are not nice
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes community, forums, libraries
all these things matter
 
Have you looked at the Go community?
 
3:08 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes You mean Google's marketing department?
 
(it's quite featured in terms of libraries btw; even out of the box)
 
it's decent, but still
 
user142019
import (
    "fmt"
    "math"
)
 
user142019
This is so ugly lol. No commas.
 
compare it with Python for example
 
3:08 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Would you stop FUDing.
 
Google Go seem too pragmatic.
 
that's an order of magnitude
 
@Zoidberg that is horrible
 
user142019
Yeah, but Python is a thousand years older.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes NEVER
 
3:08 PM
Like, on the other end of the spectrum is Haskell, which is overdesigned. :)
 
Can't I be like the Cat once in a while?
Can't I spread my self-loathing far and wide?
 
@Zoidberg so if Go ages and gets increased popularity I will probably keep myself informed about that
 
user142019
Maybe.
 
I have the feeling that Go is getting more popular actually
 
Right now C++ fits my needs.
 
3:09 PM
I still feel that it has very limited uses
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hey, that's exactly what people say about PHP and MySQL!
 
that's go language logo, lol
 
user142019
func split(sum int) (x, y int) {
    x = sum * 4 / 9
    y = sum - x
    return
}
 
user142019
Ohhh this is nice.
 
user142019
3:10 PM
Named return values.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But I am not saying NO to it. I also already said that the next language I am going to learn after C and Java will be Haskell
please don't overreact on my statements
 
@Zoidberg What is being returned?
 
user142019
@kbok x, y
 
what if there are alot of things inside the function, will it return everything ?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I am going to forgive you because you are relatively new.
 
3:11 PM
That's awkward.
 
May 8 '12 at 12:31, by R. Martinho Fernandes
(I rarely use exclamation marks when I'm serious)
 
user142019
@KhaledAKhunaifer no, the return values are named.
 
IMO named return values suck
 
user142019
//                   v here named return values
func split(sum int) (x, y int) {
    x = sum * 4 / 9
    y = sum - x
    return
}
 
@kbok Yes, it's unlike what you are used to.
 
3:12 PM
@Zoidberg how do recieve them on call ? readability will go down on that side
 
user1357851
@R.MartinhoFernandes when you code crashes you go like 'why!' you can be quite serious
 
Different languages are different. How surprising.
 
user142019
@KhaledAKhunaifer a, b = split(42)
 
user142019
The names are only there inside of the function definition.
 
@Telkitty His code never crashes.
 
user1357851
3:13 PM
Yeah ... right ... I believe you
 
user1357851
NOT
 
I have a circular dependency mess to solve.
I am embarrassed.
 
When your code crashes you go "why?" not "why!"
 
They're not crashes. They're unexpected exits.
 
user1357851
'why?!' - there has to be an exclamation mark somewhere ... just saying ...
 
3:15 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Early exits, ie program optimization.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So, just to prevent a diplomatic incident, I was overreacting in a sarcastic fashion.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes One day, you should get angry, and @Bartek should remain calm. And then that day shall be opposite day.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's not my fault I take everything seriously :/
 
a code filled with strict checking on everything
 
@EtiennedeMartel I can't possibly imagine a situation like that
 
3:16 PM
I was angry last Monday.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually it is very much like VB. Also the way it works is probably made to accomodate with SESE which is also outdated.
 
I was too. It was monday :P
 
What "What.". Formulate your question.
 
3:17 PM
STOP FUDING.
 
I got a UX question for you guys.
 
@EtiennedeMartel bring it on
 
user1357851
you remember which day you were angry? woah then you don't anger much
 
You can return a, b.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's better.
 
3:18 PM
The named returns are just convenient local variables that you would declare anyway if you were to write the function that Zoidberg wrote.
 
I got a previewer tool, and in that previewer is a single directional light. I want to allow people to change the direction of that light. What do you guys suggest would be an appropriate UI control for that?
 
No, I would return x, sum - x
 
@EtiennedeMartel direction? 3 sliders. Or wait
 
@EtiennedeMartel thats a tough question
I have seen some cool arc ball style controls
 
@EtiennedeMartel Gimbal/arcball
 
3:19 PM
You could use rotational control
 
Anyway, bad code is bad.
@kbok I would too. Zoidberg sucks.
 
Don't put code in my mouth.
 
but that could be hard to implement
 
Where it shows the light at a point on a sphere and they can click and drag the sphere around
 
3:20 PM
FTR, I barely know any Go (I did not finish the tutorial!), so it annoys me that I have to dismiss FUD about it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes this
 
I have a maths question by the way
 
@kbok Or at worst, return x, y.
 
@JustinMeiners Yeah, currently I've been thinking about that sphere control thing in Paint.NET's Layer > Rotate/Zoom dialog.
 
I'm not fudding, I'm just saying that named returns are useless and stupid and a thing from the past.
 
3:22 PM
Q: Assume we define a plane by a shortest perpendicular vector from the origin to it. Is the said
vector, i.e. a triple of numbers, enough to describe every plane in the 3d space?
 
Named returns are good if there's no tuple support in the language
Obviously you should aim for tuple support in language but that's another story
 
true.
 
@BartekBanachewicz A "trie"?
 
@CatPlusPlus that can be a feature, also it make other features more difficult to exit like operator cascading for ex
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes welp, three numbers. There should be a word for it if it doesn't exist :/
 
3:23 PM
@CatPlusPlus Again, it's the old "language vs library" debate.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, you can't describe the planes passing through the origin
 
@BartekBanachewicz (FTR en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie)
@BartekBanachewicz "Triple" or "3-tuple" if you want scalable.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes my bad.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, a vector does not describe a plane.
 
@EtiennedeMartel what are you developing on ?
 
3:24 PM
point
 
(N, d) where d is distance to origin does.
 
+ normal
 
@KhaledAKhunaifer WPF
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes can you then give me an example of two distinct planes sharing the same shortest perpendicular vector?
 
Or (A, B,) where A, B are coplanar, non-colinear vectors.
Or (N, P), where P is a point on the plane, and N is a normal vector.
 
3:24 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Tuples definitely should have language support, and if you don't see how that makes them better then well
 
@BartekBanachewicz The planes x = 0 and x = 1.
 
My mind is locked.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You only need two vectors
 
But really Go is made with wrong intentions
 
@CatPlusPlus You mean special syntax to declare them?
 
3:25 PM
Get out already with low-level primitive languages nobody cares
 
@kbok True. My bad.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes false?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the vector lenght is different, no?
 
@CatPlusPlus You know, everytime you type "nobody cares", I mentally replace it with "I don't care". It works really, really well.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Both packing and unpacking are much easier when there's special syntax for it
 
3:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Maybe I don't understand what you mean.
 
@CatPlusPlus what do you mean wrong intentions?
 
@BartekBanachewicz All planes passing through the origin have the same shortest perpendicular vector (null), hence there is no bijection
 
Wrong goal w/e
 
@EtiennedeMartel you can change the direction of your directionalLight by rotation(x,y,z) with the Light's source as the root point ..
 
@kbok it obviously fails for those. But about the planes not passing through the origin?
 
3:26 PM
It tries to replace C, but you can't replace C, so all you've got is another shitty primitive language except this one is not used
 
@BartekBanachewicz Do you mean you want to use (V, ||V||) to define the plane?
 
@CatPlusPlus ah I see (no pun intended)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean a normal vector and the lenght. Which I believe can be expressed as one v = n * L
 
@BartekBanachewicz Then yes, because that's the equivalent of a normal and a distance to origin (which was @R.MartinhoFernandes's definition)
 
but it can be written on three numbers
 
3:28 PM
Except when L=0.
 
exactly.
 
DesignDataWithDesignTimeCreatableTypes. Now that's quite the build action.
 
So what's the point?
 
@KhaledAKhunaifer That doesn't answer my question. At all.
 
Guys, you're supposed to use Cartesian, Polar, or Rectangular vectors....
 
3:28 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Sounds typical for him.
 
If you have guarantee the plane won't pass through the origin, you can use N numbers to describe it, where N is the number of dimensions
 
I think he missed the UX part
@EtiennedeMartel what are you considering besides arc balls
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but that's a strange guarantee.
 
Quaternions!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah.
That is much more obvious in 2d BTW
 
3:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can prove that there are infinitely more planes not passing through the origin compared to ones passing through it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Can you?
 
@JustinMeiners Sliders? But I don't like those. Also maybe a bunch of presets?
 
(Also, how is that relevant?)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think so.
 
I really want to avoid the "three spinboxes" approach.
 
3:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I'll just warn you that proving some infinite set is larger than another is not trivial and quite unintuitive.
 
@EtiennedeMartel yeah sliders I dont think would be good
 
@EtiennedeMartel your question is how to allow user to rotate directional light ?
 
@KhaledAKhunaifer Which control to show the user for that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let's start with a proof for 2. For every plane passing through origin, oriented on N, there are 2 planes with the same N, but moved from origin by 1 and 2. Now substitute both 2s for infinity.
 
@EtiennedeMartel so I have seen two takes on the arcball, one where it shows a sphere representing the incoming light around the scene and another where the control is literally a spot light model that you rotate in a circle on the gui to give you an idea of where light is coming from the scene
 
3:32 PM
@EtiennedeMartel when the user clicks on the mouse, keep the starting point, then as he keepClicking and drag, you measure the difference between the starting point and the current point
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think proving cardinality works this way
 
@EtiennedeMartel the difference you can use in rotating the shape\light
 
@KhaledAKhunaifer he is not concered with the techinal aspects right now
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, that's not how you construct such a proof (I don't know if your claim holds or not; I just know what you sketched is not a proof).
 
I think it says for every finite N, there's N planes outside the origin corresponding to one passing through
 
3:33 PM
You need to prove that I cannot make a 1-to-1 mapping between one set and the other. Proving that you can make a 1-to-many mapping is not the same thing.
 
Please pardon my bluntness but you suck at math
 
@KhaledAKhunaifer I already know all that.
I'm not asking how, I'm asking what.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes fuck I think you are right.
 
I know I am.
 
3:35 PM
 
Your claim may hold, but your "proof" sucks.
 
Ok let's /this_topic before we conclude I suck at math even more
 
It's important that you know
 
Anyway, if you have such a guarantee, yes, you can ditch the fourth parameter.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think its actually photoshop that does the light style arcball - let me see if I can find a screenshot
 
3:36 PM
I just think it's a weird guarantee; there is nothing special about the planes with d = 0.
 
Also, I only need two axes of rotation: I only care about the direction of the vector.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you can't divide by them :) Which is exactly why near clipping plane in graphics is never at 0
Also let's divide this potato by that plane.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Don't feel bad for it; I told you it was not trivial and unintuitive for a reason. Most people have trouble understanding the concepts needed.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You don't need a formal proof though. You just need to be sure enough.
Writing formal proofs is super hard
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes meh, I should know that it doesn't hold. It was just too long since I really studied math and thus I lost the abstract thinking capabilities required there.
 
3:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz FWIW, I think it holds.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean the proof is borked.
Proving that would probably need one to get really into numbers and ditch geometrics totally
 
I think the go-to strategy is usually Cantor's diagonal: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument or some variation of it.
 
so you would construct two quaternion sets, one being special case, and then work on that
 
its in speed tree
see top right of viewport
 
@JustinMeiners Too bad I can't include SpeedTree in Minicraft :(
 
user142019
3:43 PM
Dammit.
 
user142019
I suck at fibonacci numbers.
 
user142019
Function y u omit F0 and F1.
 
user142019
Hurray it works.
 
So, if I had modules, this circular dependency would be easily solvable, I think.
 
user142019
func fibonacci() func() int {
    a, b := 0, 1
    return func() (ret int) {
        ret = a
        fib := a + b
        a = b
        b = fib
        return
    }
}
 
user142019
3:44 PM
Feels like closure abuse.
 
if (swipeGesture.direction == UISwipeGestureRecognizerDirectionRight) {
    swipeGesture.direction = UISwipeGestureRecognizerDirectionLeft;
  } else {
    swipeGesture.direction = UISwipeGestureRecognizerDirectionRight;
  }
3
lolwut
 
We need modules in C++
 
user142019
@kbok lolwot
 
As is I need to re-architect the whole shebang.
 
user142019
#!
 
3:45 PM
Probably just drop the two things in the same header, and have one just #include <other> and nothing else. The user will never know.
 
@kbok swap directions maybe?
yeah haha
 
Also, I am getting name collisions within my own namespace. This is annoying.
 
someone doesnt know how to set the reversed bool
 
@kbok Gotta love those manual namespaces.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you have no idea - half of my time in ios is figuring out the prefix
for the enum I need
 
3:48 PM
@kbok This is 2013.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in certain circumstances I prefer it to namespace style - but in ios with the number of frameworks its just absurd
 
user142019
Hmm.
 
Apple naming scheme is atrocious
It's not even prefixes
 
user142019
In Go it's illegal to import a module without using it.
 
I am not sure what atrocious means but "manual namespaces" are horrible
 
3:49 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes iOS programming feels like the middle ages
 
@ScottW Nah, that's error prone.
 
@kbok I disagree - I think its a pretty good balance of symplicity and complexity
 
@ScottW Or if you have typos, or thinkos.
 
@JustinMeiners what
> a pretty good balance of symplicity and complexity
 
3:51 PM
@JustinMeiners There is a missing word in your profile
 
^ quote of the day
 
// frolick the shenanigans with A::frolick
B::frolick(shenanigans)
 
also vampyre
 
@ScottW Sometimes you just write stupid shit like that, and having the compiler silently trod along is bad.
 
3:51 PM
@BartekBanachewicz you know what I mean
 
@JustinMeiners No I haven't got a slightest clue
 
I can't count the amount of time I had to do spherical <-> cartesian conversions.
 
Encode that information in the types!
 
<3 useful type systems.
 
3:52 PM
@JustinMeiners I think it's an old idyom and needlessly verbose.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok one hand of symplicity you have C and on the other you have Java style
for example instead of string factories or crap like that - they encapsulate it with a class cluster so it creates the version they need but a user never knows about the different implenations they just create strings
 
@JustinMeiners both suck horribly
 
C is primitive not simple
 
@BartekBanachewicz C is pretty great
 
There's a difference
 
3:53 PM
@JustinMeiners no.
 
Java is both primitive and simple
 
@JustinMeiners Oooh starbait.
 
It just has community that has no idea what they're doing
 
So you are saying that apple ecosystem is getting the worst of C and Java and combines them
Seems legit.
 
@BartekBanachewicz no im saying its not under or over designed
its a good balance
 
3:53 PM
@ScottW It works fine until you add the humans :)
 
The worst of C is C
 
@BartekBanachewicz what happens when they combined C & java, the universe reached the zero state?
 
@JustinMeiners No
It's not a good design
 
@JustinMeiners There's also another : badly designed
 
@JustinMeiners This is a false premise. You seem to think that what Java offers must be at the cost of simplicity. The sad truth is that Java idioms suck.
 
3:54 PM
I am not saying that it is bad acutally.
 
It's constrained highly-situational design
C had a reason to do it
 
I am saying that combining C and Java isn't really saying anything positive about it
 
Everything after C is just replicating shit
 
@CatPlusPlus I think Torvalds has a pretty good idea of what he's doing.
 
@kbok they are over designed - the designs thy support are techincally some of the most expandable generic smart etc - but 99% of the time you just need to write code
 
3:55 PM
Because combining C and Java sounds like the worst idea ever
 
@EtiennedeMartel He writes Java?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I didnt say that
ok
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh. I thought we were talking about C.
 
do you guys agree there is such thing as under design?
 
@ScottW It's the old saying "assumption is the mother of all fuckups" <- that is just as valid for compiler assumptions.
 
3:55 PM
Objective-C has not been designed. It's an effort to put smalltalk on top on C, then fill the gaps as years pass and more and more of Apple's technology relies on it
 
@JustinMeiners PHP wasn't designed at all, so I think yes
 
@JustinMeiners What
 
@BartekBanachewicz I only just come in, but I would say that it's worse than that.
 
@CatPlusPlus Can't you C, it's C .. lol
 
@JustinMeiners Yeah, you need exposure to more tools if you think that of Java.
 
3:56 PM
C is not a good language
 
@CatPlusPlus it is great lol
 
and obviously there is such thing as over designed
 
@JustinMeiners dude. Where the fuck are you from
 
3:56 PM
It's not
 
so objective -C and the apple frameworks
 
Hello
 
I feel are somewhere
 
Name one good thing about C.
one
 
3:56 PM
in the middle
 
listen to him
 
With practical relevance today.
 
@JustinMeiners Java is not over-designed, it's badly-designed.
 
C is underdesigned = bad
 
C is just fine when the only alternative is assembler.
 
3:57 PM
He is a fan of Objective-C and iOS based on his profile
 
lol, objective-C sounds like --C
 
Haskell is over-designed.
 
java overdesigned = bad
 
and I guess since it's a superset he likes C
 
but Obj-C is in the middle, so it must be good, no?
Guess what? No. It still sucks.
 
3:57 PM
@MartinJames That doesn't make it a good language
It's not a good language
Ever
 
@BartekBanachewicz how much have you used it?
 
In some situations there are no better language, I'll give you that
 
@JustinMeiners Have you used it?
 
@CatPlusPlus No it doesn't :)
 
But it doesn't mean C is good
 
3:58 PM
@Rapptz lol look at profile
 
For some reason I don't think Obj-C users have ever used C.
 
C is good.
 
@Mysticial stop trolling god dammit
 
@Rapptz I did
 
@Rapptz oh your referring to C now?
 
3:58 PM
@Mysticial Only if you don't know it :P
 
hey!
shhhhhhhh
 
hehe, I know.
 
@JustinMeiners how much have you used something other?
 
@kbok I also believe people who use Obj-C only use it because of iOS.
 
Only if you don't write correct code
 
3:58 PM
@Rapptz this
 
There are alternatives though.
 
I used Objective-C long before iPhone came out
 
lol
 
Anyone saying C is good has no fucking clue and that's that good night
 
3:59 PM
You can use C++ on "non API intensive" apps
Or ruby
 
@Rapptz hehe
 
@CatPlusPlus C is good
 
@CatPlusPlus I can't agree
 
@Mysticial no it's not
 
We know that.
 

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