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9:01 PM
Sent
Though I haven't quite looked into GFX cards yet
Am I missing something, or is something not right?
 
@Drise I just sent back the one I built a couple hours ago.
 
I see
 
At first glance, they look pretty similar, though I did pick an nVidia card instead (in that price range, ATI doesn't keep up at the moment).
 
@JerryCoffin Do you trust openbox?
 
9:13 PM
> Although I'm not sure how vegans who eat placenta
ಠ_ಠ
WTF???
 
@TonyTheLion Apparently it's pretty healthy. Filled with a ton of nutrients and all.
 
ewww
it's also nasty
 
@TonyTheLion Not really. I'm assuming it would be similar to eating squid or something
 
well, everyone to their own
@Drise have you looked at placenta lately?
 
@TonyTheLion No.
 
9:15 PM
ok, I think you need to have a look
 
Tony, please don't one-box placenta pictures.
 
no
whoever said I'd do that?
how does that thought even enter your mind?
 
@TonyTheLion I'm pretty sure you were considering it
 
this is not r/gore
 
No one said you would. It was a definite possibility based on the way the conversation was moving.
 
9:16 PM
@Drise no
 
You Now Have Timeline — a New Kind of Profile
Preview your timeline now and make any changes you want before other people see it starting August 23.
 
I just wanted to make double sure I didn't have to see that.
 
NOOOOOOO
 
LOL TIMELINE.
 
9:16 PM
I DID NOT CLICK THAT
 
thought we had long gotten over FB Timeline
jeez
 
It's just the new facebook UI. Why does it matter?
 
apperently it just became not-optional
 
it's not as bad as it's been made out to be
 
@SamDeHaan nostalgia
 
9:17 PM
hive mind jumped on the look bad bandwagon.
 
@MooingDuck Why are you still using Facebook?
 
It's been rolled out non-optional for a while. You're just late rollout.
@Drise hmm. facebook.com/Drise, I WONDER IF THAT LINK WORKS >.>
 
@Drise to keep in tabs with people, see what they're doing, and announce stuff
 
@SamDeHaan In fact, it does. Though for how much longer, not sure.
 
@SamDeHaan it's his facebook too :D
@Drise I'm tempted to friend you, except that would reveal my real name
 
9:19 PM
Be my guest. Join the club of about 50 others.
Of whom I need to go through and remove more.
 
@Drise More or less -- I've gotten one open-box item from Newegg, and it was fine, but I don't have enough experience to say much more than that.
 
I think at the end of this defriedning spree, I'll be down to 30 or so. Maybe less.
 
@Xeo typesafe yes, but they allow more error situations that previously did not compile to now compile and run.
 
Guys! No one answered my question
 
@JosephPotts that's sad.
 
9:24 PM
Has anyone released a pdf version of C++ Primer 5th edition
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Like?
 
std::vector<int, alloc1> a;
std::vector<int> b;
for(auto it = b.begin(); it != a.end(); ++a)
   dostuff(it);
 
Xeo
ah
 
@Drise I was always way too lazy to defriend people. Unless they actively annoy me with their stupidity.
 
previously compiler error, now it compiles and runs, but is UB
 
Xeo
9:26 PM
iterator debugging is awesome for that, though
 
@Drise fewer.
 
@ecatmur I can't think of situations that compiled before to... oh
 
@SamDeHaan To me Facebook in it's entirety is annoying.
@ecatmur Thanks.
 
mah tongue hurts
@JosephPotts cry me a river
 
huh?
You guys are acting weird today =p.
 
9:27 PM
@Drise Eh, I go the route of not even slightly caring about facebook, it's less annoying that way.
 
@Xeo I think the pros of SCARY should have been left to the compiler/linker optimizers
@JosephPotts we're weird every day
 
@MooingDuck ah, so don't do that
 
Well weirder than normal =p
 
@SamDeHaan Which is why I log in about every 3 weeks, or longer.
 
9:28 PM
@MooingDuck Naw.
making SCARY well-defined makes some legal programs more possible and more performant- it's a win-win.
 
@Drise Yeah. I'm on it more than that because my girlfriend goes through spurts of caring way too much about facebook.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Though that situation is less probable than with vectors having the same type
 
@DeadMG I don't think the legality was much of a hinderance was it?
 
Xeo
Which was already an error (UB)
 
@Xeo true
 
Xeo
9:30 PM
You really have to count on debug support by your stdlib supplier
 
@MooingDuck Well, they would have to be implementation-defined now, since SCARY support is implementation defined, instead of being well-defined.
 
@DeadMG oh it was always IB wasn't it? Oh well.
 
actually prior to C++11 SCARY did not exist, afaik, and was certainly not mentioned in the Standard.
whereas now SCARY support is explicitly implementation-defined.
 
This failcronym is so dumb.
 
so we make iterators SCARY in next?
 
9:32 PM
what, we're still talking about SCARY?
 
@ecatmur I hope so. I don't really see the disadvantages of it.
 
what's the advantage though?
 
@DeadMG not mentioned, but a conforming implementation could have done it inC++03
 
superior performance and there are some programs which are legal under SCARY which are not legal without it.
 
@ecatmur smaller code size -> performance
 
9:34 PM
is that all?
 
you mean, superior performance and correctness is not something you find desirable?
 
@JosephPotts No, you'd be the first one.
 
@DeadMG why correctness?
 
@jalf Maybe we should make a MOVIE about SCARY? What would be a good title?
 
in that SCARY is not required by the standard, correctness can't really be an issue
 
9:36 PM
@ecatmur It means that you can, for example, make a function that can iterate over any set without regard to it's allocator, instead of having to make it a template.
 
over any set<T>, with T being fixed, right?
 
But that would have to be a function template anyway.
 
@FredOverflow set is T, Comparator, I think.
@ecatmur Oh, I meant, any set<T>.
 
@CatPlusPlus wtf is a failcronym?
 
@JerryCoffin Do you know if this comes with cables?
 
9:37 PM
@TonyTheLion SCARY
 
but unordered_set could be just T.
 
@TonyTheLion see the top thing on the starboard
 
along with vector, list, and some other stuff.
 
SCARY isn't an acronym, it's just random letters lumped together.
 
oh lol
 
9:38 PM
OK, so just performance then.
not that "just" performance isn't something to aim for.
 
just performance? just performance? just performance? just performance?
 
@ecatmur no, theres good code that compiles with SCARY, that doesn't compile without it.
 
actually
 
@ecatmur and flexibility/genericity. It lets you compile programs which look like they should compile, but woudln't without SCARY
 
if you check the original paper, there are more specific correctness advantages.
I simply can't remember them because they were some boring database something
 
9:39 PM
It has nothing to do with correctness, because these programs are not required to compile under the standard, but there's nothing forbidding it either
 
@jalf ok I've got n2911 open. What am I looking for?
 
@ecatmur nothing. That's the point. SCARY isn't required or prohibited by the standard. :)
 
@CatPlusPlus Dude. You know what's cool? RoR's ap.
 
Ell
@Drise ...ruby on rails? o.O
 
9:43 PM
I wish C++ had something like that.
 
as someone mentioned above, SCARY basically simplifies the signature of an iterator. A set<T> iterator should just depend on the std::set template, and the type T. Without SCARY, it also depends on the allocator type, for example, even though it is utterly irrelevant to the iterator
with SCARY, all set<T, ....> have the same iterator types. Without, they have unique iterator types, forcing you to template code that otherwise didn't need to be templated
It probably enables a few other tricks too. I can't remember all the details. :)
 
but you had to template on T anyway.
 
@jalf it depends on parts of the allocator, but the point is the same
 
Xeo
@jalf They just depend on T
 
Ell
woo new google favicon
 
Xeo
9:45 PM
since they're written specifically for std::set anyways :)
 
@MooingDuck I am not sure that it does.
 
@Ell Is it?
 
oh, wait, don't they have allocator::pointer stuff that defines half their interface?
 
Ell
@Drise blue plain background, white "g" instead of blue, green, red, yellow background and white "g"
 
@Ell I must be caching then.
This?
 
9:47 PM
@DeadMG yes
 
Xeo
@Drise colors flipped
 
Ell
 
Huh.
 
Xeo
Question: How can you depend on part of an allocator?
 
@Drise ?
 
9:50 PM
template<class T, class pointer, class reference, class otherthing....>
class vector_iterator {...};
//doesn't depend on the iterator _per se_.
 
Xeo
ah
So, just what std::iterator needs
 
@Xeo yes
 
Xeo
makes sense
Anyways, I'm off to sleep, g'night
 
I feel the need to design a language based off C++, but dropping all compatibility, and addressing several concerns of mine. Like operator new, streams, arrays, extension methods, and other random stuff.
 
9:54 PM
@MooingDuck Join @DeadMG's party
 
@MooingDuck you mean like D?
 
@jalf I haven't heard good things about D
 
@jalf I've seen little evidence that D is actually an improvement.
 
@Drise I feel like DeadMG and I would go very different directions.
 
@MooingDuck Feel free to join my party.
 
9:55 PM
@DeadMG how powerful are your allocators? I feel like C++ allocators are highly limited by the fact that we can &object without an allocator/method.
 
Ell
fork c++ :)
 
@Ell we'd both drop all comparability. Not much reason to fork
 
Does any one know where to find D's 'safe printf' demo with static if? I have searched for 45 minutes now, and can't find it
 
@DeadMG It's an attempt at "C++ without the backwards compatibility burden"
 
(ohai btw)
 
9:56 PM
Woot! Two B's. Now I can uncomment that thingy in my sandbox.
 
Xeo
@sehe You mean his slides for GN?
 
Personally, I think that's complete nonsense. The point in C++ is basically backwards compatibility. But hey, whatever floats their boat
 
@MooingDuck Actually, as of right now, I nerfed them. But I can increase their potential if I want to.
 
@Xeo Probably
Hey. What coincidence that my question was oddly on-topic :)
 
@sehe D's "safe printf" is built on Object and the global ToString() method. It's really not worth it.
 
9:57 PM
Jul 30 at 22:31, by Domagoj Pandža
@Drise Well, you shouldn't sign it if you're his student. That's like signing up for Anal Commando IV, as a training dummy.
 
Ell
@jalf no other language lets you write such kewl static code. I like RAII!
 
@DeadMG really?! I remembered it as being completely static, type safe etc.
 
nope
I mean, WTF do you think he did, exactly? you can't magic a string representation out of nowhere.
 
Xeo
@sehe That was his C++11 printf
 
so he introduced some worthless default like "prints object address"
 
Xeo
9:58 PM
Or C++WhenWeGetStaticIf printf
 
and then everything else can actually be printed, and those other objects will compile and execute, you'll just get useless addresses or something out the other end
 
Ell
can't you sort of do a safe printf with user literals?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG You'd assume he would use introspection to print the values of the members or something, at least
@Ell boost::format doesn't even need them
though it's not very performant :s
 
@Xeo That's of little use if the members themselves don't have meaningful ToString implementations.
 
Xeo
Even slower than streams IIRC
@DeadMG Err, right
 
10:00 PM
@Ell Yeah, but why is it stuck with horrid C-like syntax? Because backwards compatibility. Why isn't it designed for functional programming? Because backwards compatibility. I'd rather build RAII into Haskell or something, than make a "C++ without the backwards compatibility"
 
Xeo
But eventually, everything boils down to built-in types, and those should have meaningful ToString() implementations
 
@Xeo Still haven't found a link... does anyone have it stashed away?
 
Ell
@jalf I'd rather have a c++ without backwards compatibility, none of that functional rubbish ;)
 
@jalf Haskell would need more than RAII.
 
@Drise did we ever get a response about that email?
 
10:01 PM
Honestly, we can do away with a lot of the C crap. Like char*
 
Also just stumbled on:
 
@MooingDuck @Radek sent it, not me. Ask him.
 
@Drise I don't think we can drop that unless you're very very careful. Gotta have something to build the library on.
 
Xeo
Should be in there IIRC
 
10:02 PM
0
A: Strange behaviour with base class constructor and data member initialization

ecatmurYour header has bool listening in the declaration of class unix_stream_server, but your .cpp file has another definition of class unix_stream_server which omits the bool listening member. Don't do that. Seriously, don't do that. Include your headers from your implementation files! Please!

 
@DeadMG I also like a more complete seperation between library and language than C++ has.
 
@MooingDuck Hm?
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Good luck without implementing many basic things as language features as opposed to library features
 
@Drise the core language frequently references things in the library
 
@Xeo Great. I didn't remember it was in the 'datdatdat' a.k.a. 'funtastic' presentation. Scanning now :)
 
10:03 PM
@DeadMG Sure, but my point is that C++ is a ridiculous starting point if you don't care about backwards compatibility
it'd make so much more sense to build on something sane then
 
@Xeo yeah, I hadn't worked out exactly what would happen in a lot of situations yet.
 
@MooingDuck Example?
 
@jalf I disagree.
 
Xeo
Those parts aren't called "language support libraries" for nothing
 
I know :)
 
10:04 PM
I think that the core ideals at the foundation of Modern C++ are good and worth building on.
 
@Drise new int[300] throwing a std::bad_alloc
 
Ell
@MooingDuck what do you mean? most things in c++ are library
 
It does? That's dumb.
 
c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker
 
Xeo
Most of <memory> is language support
 
10:05 PM
@Drise yes. Also, initializer lists are in the library as well, rather than simply an array.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Because built-in arrays would.. suck as initializer lists.. and not allow overloading for them
 
Who do I give the bounty?
10
Q: Accessing inactive union member - undefined?

Luchian GrigoreI was under the impression that accessing an union member other than the last one set is UB, but I can't seem to find a solid reference (other than answers claiming it's UB but without any support from the standard). So, is it undefined behavior?

 
you don't need initializer lists.
 
@LuchianGrigore Jerry, because he's here.
 
language-implemented tuples can handle that
and quite a few other things
 
Xeo
10:06 PM
Table 29 — Language support library summary
Subclause Header(s)
18.2 Types <cstddef>
<limits>
18.3 Implementation properties <climits>
<cfloat>
18.4 Integer types <cstdint>
18.5 Start and termination <cstdlib>
18.6 Dynamic memory management <new>
18.7 Type identification <typeinfo>
18.8 Exception handling <exception>
18.9 Initializer lists <initializer_list>
<csignal>
<csetjmp>
<cstdalign>
18.10 Other runtime support <cstdarg>
<cstdbool>
<cstdlib>
<ctime>
 
@Xeo I haven't looked at initializer lists much, but they look a lot like std::array to me
 
Xeo
Too lazy to pretty format
 
@Xeo oh, handy list
 
Xeo
p453
@MooingDuck They're backed by arrays with the same lifetime as the initialzer list
 
@Drise also, throwing two exceptions at the same time calls std::unexpected
 
Xeo
10:08 PM
An initializer_list class isn't anything fance, really
 
I'm going home. Good night folks.
 
@Xeo right. There's no reason for that language feature to be a library class at all.
 
Xeo
template<class T>
struct initializer_list{
private:
  initializer_list(T const* first, T const* last); // or (T const* first, size_t size)
public:
  // default ctor, copy ctor, etc...
  T const* begin() const;
  T const* end() const;
  size_t size() const;
};
don't think there was much more to it
@MooingDuck overloadability on initializer lists?
Or would you solve that like std::nullptr_t?
 
@Drise cheers
 
Xeo
In C++, there are no builtin types with member functions or anything
so you'd need special begin and end free functions for initializer_list that magically access the underlying array
 
10:13 PM
template<int size>
void function(myclass (&myarray)[size]);  //overloads just fine
void function(myclass obj);
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck What if you have different meanings for array arguments and list initialization?
 
@Xeo I can't imagine such a scenario. That's what initializer lists are.
 
Xeo
Just because you can't imagine it
 
std::vector<int> = {3, 4, 5, 10}; //construct a vector from an array of values
 
Hurray, I answered yet another question!
0
A: Is it bad to have accented characters in c++ source code?

Cheers and hth. - AlfFormally C++ supports a pretty good subset of Unicode even in identifiers, so in theory one could write identifiers with e.g. Norwegian characters, such as antallBlåbærsyltetøyGlass. In practice, C++ implementations only support A trough Z, digits 0 through 9, and underscore, in identifiers. Som...

 
10:16 PM
@Xeo it's the same scenario as wanting two constructors that both construct from int. You have to make a workaround of some sort.
 
Xeo
Java's inventor also couldn't imagine what use operator overloading could possibly have :P
 
Now I just wait for downvoters, perhaps one that will contend that the example identifier name is ungood.
 
@Xeo pft, he knew, and consciously decided against it.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck And does it hurt in any way to make it a library type?
 
@Xeo only that I feel there ought to be a core language, and then a library built on that language, instead of a hybrid language/library.
 
Xeo
10:17 PM
Oh, and a built-in array could decay to a pointer
 
@Xeo it shouldn't do that. If I'm hypothetically making breaking changes, that'd be one of them :P
 
Xeo
struct X{ X(int* p){} }; X x = {1, 2, 3, 4}; // works, totally wrong semantics possibly
@MooingDuck Sure, but it does in C++
 
@Xeo and C++ has initializer list as part of the library.
 
Xeo
Anyways, I really ought to go to sleep, as much as I'd like to continue this discussion further
 
[d:\dev\test]
> cl foo.cpp
foo.cpp
foo.cpp(1) : warning C4100: 'p' : unreferenced formal parameter
foo.cpp(1) : error C2552: 'x' : non-aggregates cannot be initialized with initializer list
        'X' : Types with user defined constructors are not aggregate

[d:\dev\test]
> g++ foo.cpp
foo.cpp:1:43: error: could not convert '{1, 2, 3, 4}' from '<brace-enclosed initializer list>' to 'X'

[d:\dev\test]
>
@Xeo ^
 
Xeo
10:20 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Because {...} is not a plain array in C++
@MooingDuck proposed it could be
 
yes
sorry for butting in
probably misunderstood
 
Xeo
So, good night
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I upvoted.
 
Night
 
10:24 PM
I just realized my allocator changes to my hypothetical language would make pointers themselves a library type instead of builtin. I'm trying to figure out if that's what I really want. It might actually be. I'll have to think on it.
 
Ell
@Xeo nighty night
 
No, because then dereferencing a pointer has to be a library function too, I don't think that's a good idea.
frick. What is the right way to do allocators? :(
actually, I don't think I'd have to make pointers themselves a part of the library, you just wouldn't be able to obtain one without.... no that doesn't work either.
Generalized allocators are hard :(
 
@Drise Meh, pretty printers.
 
@MooingDuck Depends on how far you need to generalize them.
 
@DeadMG I was trying to make it general to the point that, pointers and references could be objects that referred to memory on another machine over a network. C++ allocators can handle that fine, except nobody actually uses reference or pointer, and just use the & and * built into the language, so nobody would use it correctly. I'm trying to figure out how to enforce proper allocator usage.
Problem is I can't figure out how to make that work with a clear separation of language and library.
 
10:33 PM
well, you can't enforce anyone to follow your rules
you can only make them
 
C++ is amazing at making the right thing just happen. That's what RAII is all about.
 
but the trick is
in C++, using std::vector<X, alloc>::reference every single fuckin' time is a complete bitch.
that's why everyone just uses T&.
 
@DeadMG yes it is
 
but add a heavy dose of type inference, and it becomes a lot more practical.
 
Ell
orrrr make the & operator overloadable
 
10:35 PM
@DeadMG but we have auto
@Ell you need to have it access the allocator that the object was allocated with.
 
pfffft
auto is a piss in the pond.
what about function arguments and return types?
just for example.
 
@DeadMG typedef it
 
nah, way too much effort
I'd have to be accessing that typedef from every fuckin' which place.
 
@DeadMG so?
 
so your whole problem is that it's too much effort for people to follow the rules
so start making it easier, or quit whining
 
10:38 PM
@DeadMG that's what I'm trying to do. Make the right way easier and the wrong way harder, at least until they meet in the middle.
 
right
so quit pissing in the pond and add some real type deduction
function return types and arguments, lambda arguments, etc
 
@DeadMG I feel like I just missed something very important. What do you mean by "real type deduction"? Not auto obviously.
 
simple
 
Ell
yay for inference!
 
absolutely every'fuckin'where where it's not ambiguous, add type inference.
make it so much that typedef becomes irrelevant.
a post-C++ program should practically never have actual types mentioned, anywhere unless absolutely strictly necessary
 
10:42 PM
@DeadMG How does that work with function prototypes/overloading?
 
prototypes? why would you have prototypes?
 
@DeadMG er, declaration (first line of definition), not prototype
 
those are only needed for virtual functions
 
@DeadMG yeah, I'd already made that connection, but typed prototype anyway :(
 
Type classes!
 
10:43 PM
anyways, a function argument can be implicitly a template; and a return type can be inferred from the body if known; or it will have to be explicit (e.g. decltype) if dynamically linked
 
@DeadMG but what about overloading then. (If it's number-like, do function A, otherwise do...
wait
 
Type classes!
 
@MooingDuck What about it?
we deal with function overloading and templates interacting in C++ all the time.
 
that's a non-issue isn't it, if they're both handled in the same function, forwarded to seperate implementation functions if needed...
@DeadMG SFINAE kinda deal would work too, yeah.
Fascinating line of thought
 
@CatPlusPlus I obviously don't mean an actual template. I mean "Some superior form which is in this specific instance pretty similar"
 
10:46 PM
Okay, I've barged into the discussion, why are you reinventing Haskell?
 
I still run into the problem where each object needs to be able to reference the allocator that allocated it
@CatPlusPlus better allocator support in the core language
 
@CatPlusPlus Because Haskell sucks.
 
Yet you want to do the same thing it does.
 
actually, I want to do numerous things it can't do.
and perhaps I will end up doing one or two things Haskell can currently do.
but that's quite immaterial
 
Like what?
 
10:47 PM
object orientation... non-garbage-collected code... etc.
as far as I'm concerned, Haskell has exactly the same problems as Java.
 
Bah, you can do OO and raw memory in Haskell. Nobody does, because why the hell would they, but still.
 
@CatPlusPlus my complaint was that &a.b ignores whatever magic the allocator could try to be doing.
 
it's just one paradigm pushed far beyond the point of what's reasonably sensible.
 
You can write imperative code in Haskell.
Entire I/O glue is pretty much imperative, because that's the nature of I/O.
Anyway, I'll take pure functional over OO any day.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus pure functional sucks
 
10:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus And being able to use both in one program is vastly superior to being locked into either.
 
But go ahead, it'll be interesting to see what you come up with at the end.
@DeadMG You can do that in Haskell.
 
I've seen no evidence that you can do anything other than garbage-collected function-orgasm
where's my nice, efficient, C-interoperating raw pointers? Or my easily adapted from existing C++ code classes and inheritance?
or deterministic destruction, for that matter. Those GPU buffers won't GC themselves.
 
"I won't break you down completely, I'll level you with the ground and build you back up" - I feel proud of having said that to a PHP programmer :P
 
@TonyTheLion why would you talk to a PHP programmer?
 
cause friends
 
10:54 PM
Raw pointers are in FFI, where they belong. Deterministic destruction is done with bracket or finaliser monads.
 
@CatPlusPlus if you remember. Just like C?
 
As for OOP, dunno, I certainly don't use it.
 
Ell
you don't use OOP?
 
@MooingDuck If your computation is in finaliser monad, you can't not remember.
 
Ell
isn't OOP classes?
 
10:56 PM
@Ell in Haskell
 
@CatPlusPlus If you have to remember to put it there, it's a fail.
 
Because it's tagged on the type level as requiring you to use runResourceT or whatever.
Yeah, as usual I'm at loss when explaining concepts you're prejudiced against, but never really tried. So count me out of this discussion.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm bald!
 

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