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4:00 PM
hey, do user-defined literals in C++11 have to be numeric?
 
Xeo
@KeithLayne std::cout << "no\n"_s;
(yes, bad example)
 
thanks.
@R.MartinhoFernandes does that mean that ogonek will define a univeral text literal?
 
C++ already has u"" and U"", but I'm considering adding _text to make instances of ogonek::text out of those literals.
There's no sane way of doing it for any other kind of literal (which sucks for UTF-8 lovers).
 
I was thinking about that
how many 1-byte encodings do you have to handle?
 
Both u8"" and "" are char const[1], so there's no way for me to know if it's UTF-8 or the default encoding.
C++ Y U NO char8_t?
@KeithLayne I want UTF-8, Latin-1, and Windows-1252 for 1.0, and then I'll probably add others.
 
4:06 PM
is latin-1 just 8bit?
 
Yes.
Oh, and ASCII. Duh.
 
there are encodings that are valid in all four, I assume?
 
@KeithLayne ASCII is the common subset of them.
I think Latin-1 and Windows-1252 also have some common subset larger than ASCII.
 
those seem like the real problem with treating char[] as utf8 all the time.
 
I won't treat char[] as UTF-8 all the time.
 
4:09 PM
I know.
but if there was no 8bit encoding, you could, right?
 
I'm only assuming encoding for char16_t and char32_t.
@KeithLayne Yes.
 
"Superset of ISO-8859-1": that's latin-1 yes?
 
@LucDanton Yes.
That about Windows-1252?
 
So superset and somethingsomething displayable characters.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes. I can't properly look the details because stream.
 
Ah, it replaces the C1 control codes with actual characters.
Brb, meeting.
 
4:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes what does u8"" actually do then?
 
@ecatmur my question is what does "<multibyte char literal>" do?
does it break?
or does it depend on local encoding or something?
 
Implementation-defined.
 
so u8"" basically moves it from implementation-defined to for sure a utf-8 encoded literal?
 
Oh, sorry. I thought you were referring to multicharacter character literals. Too many hours awake.
 
@KeithLayne right
 
4:17 PM
ah, so "" is whatever the source file encoding is, while u8"" is the source file converted to UTF-8
 
I was just trying to say something that communicated what I meant. I failed. :)
 
The major difference between "" and u8"" is that yes, u8"" guarantees UTF-8. Another guarantee is that UTF-8 characters in the source are properly handled with u8"".
 
@ecatmur THat's how I read it.
 
@ecatmur "" is whatever the compiler wants it to be, doesn't have to be the same as source file encoding.
 
@MooingDuck that seems like a bunch of bugs waiting to happen, especially for people like me who have never really thought about it.
 
4:19 PM
@KeithLayne you can see why it needed replacing
 
In C++03 you were very much restricted in what you could put inside "" such that it wouldn't matter too much.
 
It also makes me wonder if most Americans are behind in thinking/dealing with this stuff, or if I'm just retarded.
 
In C++11 it either magically works or the compiler is neat about it and tells you you can't do that. (But it might take some time for that change in how source files are handled is widely available tbh.)
 
@KeithLayne yes, yes we are
 
@KeithLayne I don't think the US has any monopoly on i18n-averse coders.
 
4:21 PM
How do I words.
 
try pushing your keyboard
 
In any case "" isn't really 'evil'. It's dumb because of EBCDIC/ASCII, not regionalism.
 
just the conversation about keyboards shows me that if you program in english but write in another language, you've already probably had to think about it some.
FU, IBM mainframes.
 
Things like semicolon separators and braces for indentation don't make too much sense until you look at the keyboard layouts those things were invented on. Which isn't obvious if you're not overly familiar with QWERTY.
 
@LucDanton yeah, when you look at why we have trigraphs...
 
4:28 PM
If you write comments that are not in English, I will kill you.
 
hey, I use trigraphs sometimes on this computer, backslash and pipe are broken :)
 
Hi all!
 
Lundberg...
Please don't ask me to come in on Saturday.
 
Shotgun
 
4:31 PM
I was thinking the same thing.
 
I don’t understand what’s so special about the name Lundberg.
 
because you suck at life.
 
I don’t.
 
pretty sure you do.
 
What is this?
 
4:33 PM
Who the fuck is Lundberg?
 
except me?
 
Knud Lundberg (14. maj 1920 i København - 12. august 2002 i Gentofte) var dansk sportsmand, forfatter og journalist. Som sportsmand er han legendarisk, idet han opnåede at blive såvel dansk mester som landsholdsspiller i tre idrætsgrene, fodbold, håndbold og basketball. Han blev udvalgt som et af tolv navne i den sportskanon, som Team Danmarks bestyrelse offentliggjorde i 2005. Civil biografi Knud Lundberg studerede medicin med idræt som bifag, men nåede dog aldrig at aflægge lægeløftet. Sideløbende med sportskarrieren arbejdede han med sportsjournalistisk og blev den første sportsredakt...
 
12. august 2002
 
Happy ?
 
4:33 PM
I was seven years-old back then…
 
So, every now and then <company> provides training + pizza during lunchtime. this time, the employee had gone to a tomcat conference and was passing on informationz. Towards the beginning of it, he implied that sending output to /dev/null caused some sort of catastrophic failure. I stopped listening then.
 
Office Space is a 1999 American comedy film satirizing work life in a typical 1990s software company. Written and directed by Mike Judge, it focuses on a handful of individuals fed up with their jobs portrayed by Ron Livingston, Jennifer Aniston, Gary Cole, David Herman, Ajay Naidu, and Diedrich Bader. The film's sympathetic depiction of ordinary IT workers garnered a cult following within that field, but also addresses themes familiar to white collar employees in general. Shot in Las Colinas and Austin, Texas, Office Space is based on Judge's Milton cartoon series. It was his first fo...
 
@SamDeHaan Every company has at least a little bit of suck in it.
 
isn't it Lumberg?
 
Don't read my name as 'mr lumberg'
 
4:34 PM
That’s Lumbergh.
 
Lumberg is not a real name
 
Artistic license. Suck it.
 
If I call my child Lumbergh, Lumbergh is a real name.
 
@kbok The problem is, I don't think many/any people there other than myself actually knew what /dev/null was.
 
Radek true...
 
4:35 PM
@LucDanton Source file encoding is still very much implementation defined.
 
That's a pretty high suck ratio
 
lol, piping to bitbuckets now, are we?
 
William "Bill" Lumbergh is a fictional character, who appeared initially in the Milton animated shorts, and later was portrayed by Gary Cole in the 1999 film Office Space. A caricature of corporate management, Lumbergh is the division Vice President of the software company Initech, and serves as the main antagonist of the film. According to his Employee Personnel file, he obtained a BS degree in Physics from MIT. Lumbergh is a micromanager who is focused on pointless paperwork, notably TPS reports; he has been described as "the antithesis of the motivational management leadership ideal"....
 
u8"blablabla" will convert the blablabla part from source file encoding to a valid UTF-8 sequence though.
 
4:36 PM
@ShotgunNinja Well, GitHub is pretty slow at the moment.
 
lol, I'm using Bitbucket for my company's project right now
but I also get the old reference.
 
I dislike BitBucket.
 
@SamDeHaan Well, in my company people are offered OO training where they're taught that Singleton is good.
3
 
Difficult to navigate. It’s like Vim.
 
^ WTF @kbok
 
4:37 PM
The only gripe I have with github is the Flash elements.
 
bitbucket gives me a free private git repository where github wants my money.
 
If you need “training” as a programmer, you suck.
 
@rubenvb It doesn't matter.
 
You can figure out things yourself, and if you get into trouble search Google or ask SO. Problem solved.
 
I've gotten used to Bitbucket, but I wish the Wiki was more feature-rich.
 
4:38 PM
@LucDanton It does if your editor writes a file in a different encoding than what your compiler expects.
 
@rubenvb "blablahbla" also involves conversions.
 
like, the ability to upload images would be nice.
 
@rubenvb Not covered by the Standard.
 
@ShotgunNinja Can’t you upload your wiki using Hg?
 
@RadekSlupik It depends on what they train you on. If this is a new framework/library then I don't see any problem with that.
 
4:39 PM
@RadekSlupik Never tried it, but I suppose it's worth a shot.
 
Frameworks and libraries have sample code and documentation.
And Google.
And SO.
 
@RadekSlupik If you think you don't need "training" as a programmer, you suck.
5
 
@LucDanton is this an academic question or something you bumped into?
 
@RadekSlupik <company> also recently instituted TPS reports. Test/Performance System. Required before any project goes out the door. Sad thing is I don't think the people that named it got the reference
 
The fact that there's people here who actually need OO training is something else.
 
4:39 PM
@RadekSlupik That's all training.
 
@JohanLundberg What is?
 
@LucDanton Hence: implementation defined. The only guarantee you get is that u8"\u20AA" will be the UTF-8 sequence for the isreali currency symbol.
 
wow @SamDeHaan, that's super awesome.
 
The thing about encodings
 
Unicode is not an encoding.
 
4:40 PM
You don't get that guarantee with plain "".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, desert island book list. At least give me some hints :P
 
@RadekSlupik you are the only person to say "unicode" lately.
 
@rubenvb No that's not what implementation-defined means. If you pass a source file encoded in something that your compiler doesn't expect, how can u8"" save you? What will happen to u8 for instance?
 
Shit.
 
4:41 PM
@SamDeHaan Man, you're really persistent. I can tell you The Mote in God's Eye is in it. I'll have to think more about the rest.
 
fuckshitballs
 
Merde.
 
@LucDanton Right. I kinda assumed the file would be in ASCII for the second thing I said. Drop source file encoding out of the picture, cause that's implementation defined.
 
TIL: moot was in the 2009 Time 100.
 
"foo" either magically convert the source file encoding (and UCNs) to execution encoding or fails politely. It's as magic as u8"foo".
 
4:42 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have an unreasonable amount of curious. It can get in the way sometimes. That and I'm looking for more books to read.
 
I would never have believed that C++11 would have improved all that lex/translate/character sets/encodings stuff but it did!
 
@RadekSlupik He was hacked to #1, IIRC.
 
@LucDanton Yes. I didn't deny that. What I said is that u8"\u20AA" is a well-defined construct.
 
@rubenvb That was addressed to no one in particular.
 
lol, people talking about moot
 
4:44 PM
@LucDanton lol talking to yourself? :P
 
@rubenvb It's too neat not to mention.
 
@DeadMG yup :D
moot is a great person.
 
@LucDanton and how did it improve btw? I seem to have missed that bit.
 
2 mins ago, by Luc Danton
"foo" either magically convert the source file encoding (and UCNs) to execution encoding or fails politely. It's as magic as u8"foo".
 
my sha-2 solver is a giant pile of mess, lol
 
4:45 PM
@rubenvb IIRC translation into UCNs. Also "foo" could only contain characters of the basic source sets.
 
How secure is AES-256? Is it easy to crack when the key is long enough?
 
Plain ole brute force is not feasible.
 
Nice. :)
And more sophisticated attacks?
 

Brute forcing AES-256 is not feasible

Sep 10 '11 at 23:44, 47 minutes total – 150 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Sep 11 '11 at 0:33 by R. Martinho Fernandes

 
@LucDanton oh you mean you can use "execution character set supported" \uXXXX also in "" if the character is convertible?
 
4:47 PM
Heh, there's a team in my company whose name is SALAD. "Sales Administration" :)
 
Sep 11 '11 at 0:30, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Considering a 1MB message. We can do less than 5*10^15 runs per second. It would take 8*10^53 years to try all keys on this. That is 6*10^43 times the age of the universe.
Hmm. The messages I’m about to encrypt can be as short as ten bytes. :P
I can salt them, though.
 
I'm going to take a stab at multilib GCC.
 
@rubenvb I'm not sure of the details. The rule of thumb I have interned is that "Do what I want, the compiler will complain if it's not cool enough". Reason being that in addition to whatever is required to work (that didn't before), there are now hooks everywhere for implementation-defined 'please do the right thing'.
 
Why not just write 5e15, 8e53, 6e43 ?
 
@rubenvb I think he means it's currently possible to put characters in "" which cannot be represented in the execution character set (but I'm not sure)
 
4:49 PM
@LucDanton Wow. That's quite a nonsensical explanation ;-). I'll take your word for it, and I'll stick to ASCII or \uXXXX :P.
 
:4744599 thanks. I’ll salt the messages for extra security so they are long enough.
Some messages will be only one or two bytes, but they must still be safe.
 
> if there is no corresponding member, it is converted to an implementation-defined member other than the null (wide) character.
An example of the new leeway.
 
Which is still implementation-defined...
 
Yeah, you rely on the kind of the literal for the resulting encoding.
 
Mornin'
 
4:52 PM
Magic!
 
Evenin'
 
Wut? All I read is implementation defined, not dependent on type of underlying literal.
 
EVERYTHING IS IMPLEMENTATION-DEFINED!!
 
That's from the phases of translation -- the phase that deals with what's in the literals.
The spec for the literals gives the guarantees as to what "foo"/u8"foo" means and the like.
 
@LucDanton which is nothing outside basic execution character set (implementation-defined might be: omit those characters not in the basic execution character set)
 
4:54 PM
That's not an encoding.
You can't remove the characters.
 
So is there a way to get this to work with gcc?
const char a[]="aʑb";
for (auto c : a) std::cout << "> " <<c <<std::endl;
 
But it might fail to convert your é.
@JohanLundberg yes, there's an input file encoding option, which works if you compiled with libiconv.
Has been for a long time, long before C++11.
 
@rubenvb Yes. With guaranteed warning. No UB.
 
@LucDanton ah. OK. First time you say guaranteed warning.
 
(fun fact, I did not write é I wrote some bengal character looking like a z )
 
4:56 PM
@rubenvb Sorry, with guaranteed implementation-defined semantics.
 
@JohanLundberg See -finput-charset=charset on gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Invocation.html
@LucDanton which may as well fail to be useful on some compiler.
 
@rubenvb Well, read the documentation. It's not like you'll be surprised.
 
@LucDanton My point was that the guarantee per Standard is still pretty weak and useless in the broadest sense. Nothing more.
 
Implementation-defined is not 'pretty weak'. It's right down below defined behaviour.
It's not less useful than C++03, so it's at least as useless as C++03.
 
@LucDanton at most?
 
4:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I no words now.
 
@LucDanton You started this saying C++11 improved the situation. I guess that's not untrue, but... well... OK. No words more.
 

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