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sbi
8:01 PM
@EtiennedeMartel The only reason the lounge is not distracting is that, once I hit the lounge, there's nothing left it could distract me from. (I.e., in order to be distracting, it should leave room for something else to do to distract me from. The lounge doesn't really leave room for anything else, though.)
 
Xeo
Anyways, since Boost.MultiArray wouldn't compile with VS and since I had no way to check why or how to solve it, I started to develop on my Debian vbox with Clang, and am now learning about makefiles.
On that point, anybody got some links to good make/makefile or Cmake tutorials/papers?
 
As the Cat would say, don't write makefiles.
 
I love makefiles!
 
@Xeo Well, that's one hell of a workaround.
 
Xeo
I'm trying to avoid it, but CMakeLists.txt seems even more arcane than a simple makefile for my small project. :P
 
You just fell into the first trap of makefiles: there's no such thing as a simple makefile.
3
 
@LucDanton why?
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Atleast I'm now properly compiling / developing on both platforms. :)
 
Makefiles are not that bad.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Well, yeah, I kinda noticed that
 
sbi
8:06 PM
@Xeo I have yet to see a good cross-platform build system. Makefiles, however, aren't even close. Rather, they are on the opposite ("bad") end of the spectrum of possible build systems. CMake I have had to deal with briefly a few years ago. It's off the scale, far beyond makefiles.
 
Could those of you on Unix-like systems tell me what the output of this is when compiled on your machines?
I'm trying to figure out if I can rely on a certain C macro to have a constant value.
 
Xeo
@Maxpm > 21523
On my Debian vbox
 
sbi
@Maxpm My Unix is ideone.com. It says 21523 :)
 
> 21523
 
Thanks.
 
Xeo
8:07 PM
@sbi I don't even want to be cross-platform
 
sbi
@Maxpm It's constant as in "won't change during runtime. It might not be the same across platforms, though. (Why do you think they use a macro?)
 
Xeo
I just don't want to manually type the compiler invocations on my vbox
 
Awww, I don't think I can get make_overload(++arg1, arg1 + std::string { "foo" })(0) to do the right thing :(
 
@Maxpm 1074295912 here, I'm on Mac OS X 10.6.
 
sbi
@Xeo I have yet to see a good build system. Makefiles, however, aren't even close. Rather, they are on the opposite ("bad") end of the spectrum of possible build systems. CMake I have had to deal with briefly a few years ago. It's off the scale, far beyond makefiles.
 
Xeo
8:08 PM
lol
 
@EtiennedeMartel Oh, dear.
I guess I can't do away with my C bindings. :(
 
Xeo
@LucDanton What should make_overload do, aynways?
 
It makes an overload, duh. As in, overloaded functor.
 
@sbi What would make a good build system?
And what are your problems with makefiles?
 
compare with make_overload([](int& i) { return ++i; }, [](std::string const& s) { return s + "foo"; })
 
8:11 PM
@Maxpm I like the concepts of MSVC's solutions/projects, though I'm sure the details are stupid and non-portable in some way.
 
@Maxpm I second this question.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck The details are XML
 
@Xeo that doesn't make them "portable", as GCC can't use them
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck I didn't mean that, I just wanted to mention that they're XML :P
 
sbi
@Maxpm I really, honestly, don't know. All the ones I have seen have surprising notches, glitches, and peculiarities, as soon as you deviate from the standard sample, driving you up the wall, and requiring hours or even days of trial-and-error for what should be simple tasks. What I know is that this should not be the state of the art.
 
8:12 PM
@Xeo oh, then... yes
 
Xeo
But I really like IDEs for automagically figuring out the dependency graphs, like which cpp depends on which header
I want that for my makefiles. :(
 
@Xeo yes, that's awesome
 
@Xeo The issue with having build systems deduce dependencies from source code is that you alienate other languages out of the box.
 
does this song makes sense to anyone? : www.mediafire.com/?zdjgmzzdznm
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Actually, I haven't used an IDE (in 20 years) which did not do that.
 
8:15 PM
That said, tools do exist for that. rdmd takes a D program's entry file and compiles everything it includes.
 
sbi
15 years ago, I was using Borland C++ 5 (not C++ Builder, mind you), and I thought it's project management was extraordinarily good. But I really don't know what I would think about it today.
 
@MrAnubis invalid or deleted file?
 
Invalid or deleted file.
 
hmm
 
@sbi I don't even know what compiler I learned C++ on. It was some borland compiler or other that came with a book someone gave me. I used notepad for the first year, then I went to college. MSVC8 (2003) nearly made me cry with joy
 
8:17 PM
@sbi What is your favorite build tool today? If I may ask :)
 
sbi
@MooingDuck If it was about ten years ago, then BCC5.5 was a popular free compiler then. From today's POV it's support of templates was pathetic, though. (Notable was the "smiley bug".)
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck I started with Bloodshed Dev-C++.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked I have none. I'm using VS at work, but I'm not satisfied with it.
 
@StackedCrooked good lord there's lots! O.o
 
@MooingDuck VC++8 was with VS2005. It's the one I started learning C++ with (in 2006).
 
Xeo
8:19 PM
And 2 years ago I had to work with CodeWarrior...
 
I'm moderately satisfied with CMake. I've heard good Scons also.
 
Xeo
@sbi Why not?
 
@Xeo I have used it too. It found it to be nightmarishly bad.
 
@EtiennedeMartel oh, then I started with VC++7 then
 
@MooingDuck @Maxpm Link updated: 41.media.v4.skyrock.net/music/419/aa1/…
 
Xeo
8:20 PM
@StackedCrooked Yeah. Sadly, that's the IDE of the compiler Nintendo ported for the Wii, so we had to use it. :/
 
@MrAnubis so, why does it pause whenever I change the volume?
 
Currently using SCons following the Cat's suggestions.
 
Xeo
The worst about CodeWarrior was the fact that it would die horribly with a crash if you had 2 nested folders.
 
I generally do not like IDEs.
Text editors with syntax highlighting are nice.
Code completion is annoying.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck VC7 was VS.NET. It wasn't any better than VC6, except it supported .NET. VS2003, aka VC7.1 was a gigantic leap forward in standard conformance.
 
8:22 PM
@MooingDuck I don't know www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TSkDUyVY7g
 
Xeo
@Maxpm That's an interesting point of view.
 
Man, can't believe it's been 6 years since I started using C++.
 
@sbi it beat notepad by leaps and bounds
 
(Actually, more like 5 years and a half, baha)
 
sbi
@MooingDuck As an IDE yes. As a C++ compiler, it sucked big time.
 
8:22 PM
@Xeo I like MSVC's little suggestions, and HATE Netbeans code completion
 
@Xeo The only code completion I like is automatic tabbing, if that counts.
 
@MooingDuck VC++ is the compiler. VS is the IDE.
 
Xeo
@Maxpm Indenting?
 
@sbi I also hadn't known about debugging before
 
@Xeo Yes.
 
8:23 PM
@EtiennedeMartel picky picky
 
At my first job in 2005 a project was started to create a makefile buildsystem that would replace the current Visual Studio and CodeWarrior project files. Seemed backwards back then, but it was a good move I think.
 
@MooingDuck You can write C# in VS, so the distinction is important.
 
Xeo
@Maxpm Meh, I like code completion. And especially the part that shows parameters...
 
@EtiennedeMartel VS2003 then.
 
sbi
@Xeo If you have big projects, it totally sucks. When I build the solution I'm currently working on, there's several dozen C# projects. Only about 10% of them take longer than one sec to compile. Yet, when I compile for the first time, it takes several minutes, because the build system freezes the IDE for 20secs at a time between projects, doing god knows what.
 
8:24 PM
I think it's interesting the VS2003 does not run well in Windows 7.
 
@MrAnubis neat song, I like it.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Borland C++ had a pretty decent (at the time) debugger.
 
In spite of their focus on backward compatibility, Microsoft isn't able to make new OS versions that run their own programs.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck imho, the biggest plus for VS is the visual debugger. I like it. A lot.
 
@sbi If my book mentioned it, I missed that chapter
@Xeo absolutely
 
sbi
8:26 PM
@MooingDuck BCC5.5 was the command line compiler. That was the one that was free back then.
 
@sbi that's probably what I had then
 
@MooingDuck The song is in english? :P
 
Xeo
@sbi Ah, yeah, the IDE itself has gotten damn slow with VS10. Sometimes totally unresponsive. However, I thought we were talking about the build system itself, though that may also be part of the problem
 
@MrAnubis I don't think so
 
Xeo
Hm, Boost.Build. Anybody got experience with that?
 
sbi
8:28 PM
@Xeo Well, we do have a rather complicated build, with lots of stuff (like COM registration) plugged into the thing. Getting this to work across different Windows versions was a nightmare that took months to smooth out.
 
@sbi My company's project is current at 404 projects. Opening and closing visual studio takes 3-5 minutes. WHY DOES CLOSING (with no changes) TAKE 5 MINUTES?
 
I experimented with it just enough that I'm now staying very far away from it.
 
Xeo
Damn
 
Oh. Visual debuggers are one thing I really, really like about IDEs.
But it's worth noting I've never tried to use gdb on the command-line.
 
@Maxpm I hope to never have to
 
sbi
8:31 PM
@Xeo About four or five years ago I was at a company where they were looking for a cross-platform build system. After a good look at many of them, including Boos.Build, they decided for CMake. After a few weeks of twiddling it to fit the requirements, everybody involved loathed CMake ("an macro expansion tool on steroids"). But nobody, ever, contemplated checking out Boost.Build for a second time. (I wasn't closely involved in this.)
@MooingDuck Just kill the damn thing.
 
@sbi I do sometimes. I just checked, our source folder is currently 17GB
 
Booze.Build :D
 
Ell
i like the coloured output cmake does when building :D
 
@MooingDuck Good Lord. How do you have 17GB of text?
 
sbi
@Maxpm I think XCode builds a GUI on gdb. I remember in that one company the Mac guys coming to us and ask us to have a look at it in VS, if they needed to debug something nasty, because gdb was seriously limited when it came to templates and stuff.
 
Xeo
8:33 PM
@MooingDuck What's the size of the .sdf and ipch file/folder?
 
I just figured I can kill off automatic currying to solve the issues between make_overload and the lazy-eval EDSL. Now looking for a nice syntax for it: make_overload(constrain(++arg1), constrain(arg1 + std::string { "foo" }))?
 
@sbi I've never had issues with Xcode's debugger. I actually think it's quite nice.
 
Eh, going to call it fix, as in "fix the arity".
 
sbi
@Maxpm Well, that experience is about five years ago. It might have improved since then.
 
@sbi GDB is crap. You can't even make it break on exceptions of a certain type (either break on all exceptions or none).
 
8:34 PM
@Maxpm that includes all of the projects, temporary object files, and built executables now that I think on it, so I guess that's not fair
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Yikes. The only time I saw this was in a company where they checked in all the projects under the library the projects were based on, including all the resources, some of which were GB-sized videos. 20GB of a working copy. It took ages for SVN to check this out.
 
@StackedCrooked In Visual Studio, I can make it intentionally crash at some point - and that gives me a very nice stack-trace.
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck It includes the Intellisense files, which is not fair. .sdf for my little game takes 100mb and the ipch folder amounts to another 222mb
 
I agree that GDB is harder to use. I haven't used it enough to properly judge it though.
 
Maybe someone changed the file extensions in his porn collection to .pl and hoped nobody would notice.
 
Xeo
8:36 PM
And that's for a small 5 header 5 cpp files project
 
@Mysticial Well, this is also possible with GDB (__builtin_trap()).
 
@Xeo 3898 cpp files, though windows won't tell me the bytecount total. They very from 0 to 1.48MB
 
@StackedCrooked The one MSVC is integrated into the GUI, so it makes it's fairly convenient.
 
Ell
argh stupid linking errors! Everything just works on linux -.-
 
I admit that I haven't tried any GUI IDEs in Linux though.
I do all my programming in Windows, and port it to Linux.
 
8:38 PM
@Mysticial That's indeed one of MSVC's stronger points.
 
hmm, why do we have two 1.5MB cpp files? Lets see, 33,517 LOC...
 
@Mysticial QtCreator does fairly well. But it's nothing compared to VS.
 
@Ell Linking errors are always great fun.
 
And I hate the repcap sooooo much....
 
Ell
@Maxpm they cause me great pain :'(
 
8:39 PM
repcapping should be done on a monthly basis, not daily <end rant>
 
@Ell What's the error?
 
I have also switched back to Windows a few times because my debugger on Mac or Linux wasn't capable.
 
Holy shit it's working.
 
Ell
@Maxpm haha, thats the embarrassing thing :S
 
@Ell An embarrassing error?
 
8:41 PM
No, visit(variant, make_overload(fix(++arg1), fix(arg1 + std::string { "foo" })));
 
Ell
@Maxpm I can't find the error :P but I think its a linking error
 
I (partly) reimplemented Boost.Variant because. And mine is better (sometimes).
 
@LucDanton better how?
 
@Ell Post the output of the compiler/linker on Pastebin or something.
 
Awesomely better.
 
8:42 PM
@Ell whats the error message?
 
No need for that StaticVisitor concept silliness.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck The biggest project I have worked on had about that many .h files. Plus almost 2000 .cpp files. That was about 150kB of source code. It took an hour to build on a single core machine half a decade ago.
 
Ell
@Maxpm When I run it from eclipse, nothing happens. It compiles but nothing happens. Even if I strip it down to a "Hello World" programme
I cant find the error message, eclipse just runs it silently and it says <terminated>
 
sbi
@Ell Nothing is to be happening after you compile and link. You will have to start the program for something to happen.
 
@Ell Can you try compiling it from the command line?
 
Ell
8:44 PM
@Maxpm I will give it a go, but I'm used to eclipse doing all the magic for me. Give me a few mins :L
 
What's the difference between a char (*)[] and a char **?
 
@robjb One is an array and one is a pointer.
 
@robjb Imagine adding + 1 to a pointer of either type.
 
@robjb The first one is an array of char pointers. The second is a pointer to a char pointer. The first one implicitly decays to the second one. In any case, use std::vector<std::string>.
 
Xeo
8:46 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Pointer to array of char, not array of char pointer
 
An array of char pointers, or a pointer to a char array?
@EtiennedeMartel, @StackedCrooked Thanks, I thought as much but the syntax threw me off.
@Xeo thanks for clarification ;)
 
@Xeo Woops. I knew I would mess that up.
 
@sbi Dammit why must you outdo me?
 
@robjb char (*)[] is pointer to array of unspecified bounds and element type char, char ** is pointer to pointer to char.
 
sbi
8:48 PM
@StackedCrooked Actually it's more like you couldn't live up to what I had already posted weeks ago.
 
Okay, so if char (*)[] decays to char **, is casting from the former to the latter valid?
 
I shall go and crawl into a corner now.
 
:/
 
char (*)[] does not decay to anything.
 
@robjb Decay is implicit cast.
 
8:50 PM
Pointers don't decay. Arrays and functions do.
 
@LucDanton It decays to nothing? :)
 
Sucks to be you, Europeans. Here it feels like spring.
 
@StackedCrooked No, it doesn't decay.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Where is "here?"
 
@EtiennedeMartel Where are you?
France?
 
8:51 PM
{{Infobox settlement |name = Sherbrooke |settlement_type = City |official_name = Ville de Sherbrooke |other_name = |native_name = |nickname = Queen of the Eastern Townships |motto = Ne quid nimis |image_skyline = Rue Wellington Nord.jpg |imagesize = |image_caption = Wellington Street North |image_flag = Sherbrooke flag.png |flag_size = |image_seal = Ville_de_Sherbrooke.svg |seal_size = |image_shield = Blason vil...
 
I would think that Canada's weather would be as cold as Europe's.
 
Yeah, I'm about as surprised as you are.
 
You're suprised and you live there?
You don't have long-term memory or so?
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Like the stuff on the compost heap in my garden. That, too, decays.
 
Ell
europe isnt cold :O
 
8:53 PM
@sbi Or like the stuff in my fridge :/
 
I'm used to temperatures of -30˚C in February. Not -5˚C. I could even go walking out in T-shirt at this rate.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Are you in French speaking part of Canada?
 
@StackedCrooked Oui.
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel I might have laughed at that six weeks ago, but today I didn't even close my jacket when I came from work, because it was +3°C, which is about 10-15° warmer than what we had for the last few weeks. Now I can imagine that people consider -5° almost tropical. :)
 
I remember the sentence: "Il faut que tu fasses la vaisselle.". It reminds that there is this thing called "subjonctif" in French.
 
8:57 PM
@StackedCrooked Yeah, it's a pain in the ass.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I would think a native speaker wouldn't have any trouble with that.
 
Ell
subjunctive o.O
 
@StackedCrooked French is incredibly hard to write, compared to English.
Well, perhaps not "incredibly", but still.
 
Command-line gdb actually doesn't look that bad.
 
So many exceptions and shit.
 
8:58 PM
Compared to English any language is hard to write :D
 
But French is quite verbose indeed.
 
Ell
Oui
Prefiero espanol
 
Like the completely useless male/female-ness of nouns.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Actually not. Mark Twain is known for a rather scalding review of German. The one positive thing he saw in it was that, once you know how to pronounce the letters (which is much more regular in German than in English), matching heard and written German or writing down what you hear is much easier than in English.
 
9:01 PM
@StackedCrooked Well, sometimes it's obvious. Like chair, which is female, because you sit on it.
(Har har)
 
@sbi Shouldn't that text be read with tongue firmly planted in cheek, as is customary with Mark Twain?
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Wait. Aren't you speaking Flemish as your native language? Doesn't that have this, too?
 
@sbi Given the inability of many to distinguish between "you're" and "your" I tend to agree with you.
 
sbi
@LucDanton Of course, it should. Still.
 
@EtiennedeMartel The female can sit on the male as well...
 
9:02 PM
I just solved one of my problems with return &static_cast<Result&>(*static_cast<element_type*>(const_cast<void*>(visitor.valu‌​e)));.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked That's easy. How about: ruff, tough, though, row, mo... And that's merely scratching the surface.
 
@sbi Yeah kind of. There is "de" which is equivalent to either "der" or "die" and "het" which is equivalent to "das". It's just as useless as the French noun gender.
@sbi Oh, and yes, nouns are either male of female. I almost forgot. It's rarely relevant in practice.
@sbi When referring to a broken chair we have to either say "He is broken" or "She is broken". I have no clue which one is correct, so I say "This chair is broken", just like all Flemish and Dutch people do.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Oh, It's very relevant in German. (It's one of the things Scott keeps nagging me about. "Why is this word female? And that male? That makes no sense!")
 
Actually, now that I think of it, I always use "he".
@sbi I had three years of German classes in highschool. Forgot most of it, unfortunately.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked One of Scott's pet peeves was when he learned that the German word for "clitoris" (we use the Latin word, too, but there also is a German word) is male. He almost cracked over it. :) Of course, there's a linguistic explanation, but that doesn't change the fact that it's funny to foreigner.
 
9:08 PM
Penis is female in French as well.
Makes no sense :)
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Haha, I should tell him that!
 
Sure.
 
@StackedCrooked you can always use "die" to ignore the gender :P
 
@StackedCrooked It isn't. You're thinking of a slang word.
Not that it makes more sense, it's all arbitrary.
 
@LucDanton Dammit, you're right! I swear it was female when I looked it up when I was 15 years old.
Things have changed.
Or I was mistaken. But it's a belief I've been holding for over 16 years..
 
9:13 PM
There are such words that do designate the penis, but not 'penis' itself.
 
Guess I'll go back to my corner.
 
sbi
@LucDanton Of course, a slang word for a distinct male part being of female gender might be even more surprising. :)
 
Would it surprise you that a slang word for female genitalia is of male gender? Although these days people overlook the literal meaning of it.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Last time you crawled, That seemed more fitting, IYAM. :)
@LucDanton "Kitzler" is the official German word for "clitoris", and it's male. When we use the Latin word ("Klitoris"), it's female, though.
> Language is a virus from outer space. — William S. Burroughs
Well, it's high time to go to bed for me. Sleep well!
 
@sbi Good night!
 
9:35 PM
I think I recall that German potential females experience a gender change when they marry. Like "das Mädchen" and then "die Frau", or was it opposite?
 
That's about the funniest way to pit it @AlfPSteinbach :)
 
Xeo
@AlfPSteinbach "das Mädchen", "die Frau"
@RMartinho: Yay, Clang ToT has near-complete lambda support now. :)
 
@AlfPSteinbach it's not when they marry
it's when they get old. it's like "the girl" and "the woman"
 
9:51 PM
Oh. Is that icon from an 80's pop band, like Foreigner or Alphaville?
now i can't remember the old icon
argh
 
Xeo
@Alf, you mean @Johannes' picture?
 
@Xeo yes, new picture
I think the one where he stood behind himself was great
^ Alphaville
On closer inspection, maybe not :-)
Me, I'm using a 90's picture of myself
Working on amazing laptop with 64 MB RAM and running NT 4, I think.
It's just a slice of white at the bottom of the pic
 
Ell
aghh somebody kill me i cant figure this out -.-
 

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