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7:02 PM
Link dumped right below the puppy's last message. This is gonna turn well...
 
@spacecash21 no
 
@Mysticial Already done.
1 message moved to bin
bint
 
@DeadMG ?
 
huh
oops
 
Aww... you binned my message... :(
oh wait, you fatfingered.
 
7:04 PM
1 message moved from bin
 
hmm, my little brother can choose between 2 phones...a ZTE Skate, or a Samsung Galaxy Y. the samsung has a weak CPU and a tiny crap screen, the Skate has a weak CPU and a big screen but short battery life. :/
 
1 message moved to bin
 
@spacecash21 Why are you asking for help about Objective-C in a C++ chatroom?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Didn't you know that Objective-C, C, C++/CLI and C++ are all the same language? Come on...!
 
@LuchianGrigore Identical
 
7:06 PM
@LuchianGrigore you're still 1 answer short of 3000
you should wait for a great question :)
 
3k? Holy shit...
 
@LuchianGrigore you forgot C# :p
 
Ah, dammit.... and Java ofc.
 
I think I have less than 1k - including deleted answers.
 
@Mysticial I've got 2884
 
7:07 PM
Something must be going wrong....
 
Well, next time I get an answer with 5k upvotes, I'll stop (@Mysticial)
 
Somehow, uint16_t is ending up evaluating to unsigned int on my computer. o_O;
 
Sounds like a promotion.
 
It would be, if it wasn't smashing my unicode implementation to tits.
 
just use the robot's implementation
 
7:09 PM
That reminds me I need to write more of it.
 
I just +1 the 5K answer, it's a great piece :)
 
@emartel Thanks! :D
 
@Mysticial the community says thanks for that answer ;)
 
Is this one of those things where basic_String is going rogue and doing stuff for me...
 
seriously
just use the robot's Unicode implementation
 
7:12 PM
Is it on his Flaming Dangerzone blog?
 
even I would not attempt to tackle Unicode if I could simply steal it from him
 
Just use ascii and act like unicode doesn't exist
 
loladvice
 
You know what's the best part of having bread for dinner?
 
you know you're getting fat when the promotional tshirts you got for free finally fit you :(
 
7:14 PM
the bread?
 
No cooking.
2
 
@Pubby I prefer to just act like combining diacriticals didn't exist. In one fell swoop, that would make Unicode about 1000000 times better.
 
diacritics, not diacriticals
 
what do they do, tell you you're a bad father?
 
7:15 PM
@emartel In at least a couple of cases, that would mean I was getting thin.
@DeadMG The Unicode consortium agrees with me.
 
@JerryCoffin Disagrees with both of you.
 
@emartel The ones you got from work?
 
diacritical does not imply that the plural is diacriticals
 
@JerryCoffin Also, ignoring just that block won't help you much.
 
@Borgleader yeah, I'm sporting a sexy Lara Croft shirt now... :P
 
7:18 PM
@emartel Nice!
 
@JerryCoffin hehe that's good then :)
i really need to go to the gym more
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not just that block, no. I just happened across that checking whether they use "diacritic" or "diacritical".
 
@emartel I got a T-shirt from scifi.SE and I can fit another me in it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes XXXL? :)
 
Why is there poop all over the starboard?
12
 
7:20 PM
@Mysticial Why did you add more to it?
 
bet ya' didn't see that coming.
 
@JerryCoffin I think it's neither. It's "combining marks". Combining diacritical marks are just a subset of them.
 
@Mysticial Because C++.
 
@Mysticial Look what's to port and you'll see where that's coming from.
 
Anyone use a mechanical keyboard and has a trick to make it sound less? my gf can't stand my keyboard, but the joy of typing on it is magnitudes greater than with standard rubber dome keyboards
 
7:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay -- I'm fine with "combining marks" (as a term -- I still think we should get rid of them all).
 
@emartel Possibly.
 
FINALLY
God I hate UNicode. once I find Robot's implementation I'm going to blow my own up.
 
I think I may bring it to the Careers party and bitch at someone.
@ThePhD How strange, I like it. Seems I am singular in that in this room :(
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes As far as my strings go and getting text on the screen, my Unicode UTF8 is working great. I felt really good about it.
Then I started to write it to strings for the Microsoft API. And I began to hate myself.
 
yeah
 
7:25 PM
@ThePhD bitbucket.org/martinhofernandes/ogonek Very alpha. Expect all kinds of bugs and missing functionality. What passes for docs is here bitbucket.org/martinhofernandes/ogonek/wiki/Cookbook.
 
Microsoft uses UTF-16
 
IOW, I don't recommend it. cough
 
I know it does. And I translated it to UTF16. And it blew up on me. =l
 
But I need testers, so... I do recommend it. cough
 
nyaha :P
 
7:26 PM
It's probably because my UTF16 translation is the shits. As in, actually is shitty.
 
use the robot's API
he, often sometimes isn't dumb enough to screw up a simple binary encoding exchange
 
@Borgleader is it cold outside?
:P
 
@emartel It was yesterday.
 
@Borgleader you didn't go out you lazy bum?
 
Iterators must go I like it.
Can I help?
Or am I only allowed to look, not touch?
 
7:29 PM
I am only getting rid of iterators internally because they give exponential space growth when chaining and make it hard to do some optimizations I really want to do. The interfaces will still involve iterators because algorithms and ranged-for.
 
@emartel Nope, I'm a warmth loving creature.
 
<3 warmth
I think my grocery store delivers... but bleh, I guess I should go
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pointer party?
 
@ThePhD integer promotion. doing anything with a short/char/etc results in an int.
 
@ThePhD Sure, why not? Just fork it and stuff.
 
7:30 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Iterators give exponential space growth when chaining? How did that happen?
 
This morning, I saw a graffiti that said "More ♡, Less $". I thought "why not both?"
 
@EtiennedeMartel To which I would write under it: "Do you live in reality?"
 
@DeadMG More often than not, the iterators need to store both the start and the end iterator of the underlying range.
 
@EtiennedeMartel well you can spend $ to get ♡...
 
@EtiennedeMartel You think in memes now? O.o
 
7:31 PM
@emartel Not exactly.
@Borgleader I blame @Cicada.
2
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes WoooOooOooOoOooOoOoOoOooooooooooo I feel important!
I wonder if I'll be able to have any lasting impact on the project. I hope I can.
... But I should really finish this first, before I got nuts.
 
@DeadMG Because sometimes I need to know if I reached the end when ++ing. Consider a decoding UTF-8 iterator, over a stream that has an unfinished multibyte codepoint at the end. If I don't know when I am at the end, I cannot make it an error. Instead I would try to read the rest of it and UB.
 
I wish Visual Studio was comfortable with .h++ and .c++. Has anyone every hacked VS to recognize these extensions for C++ development?
 
That code won't compile in VS anyway (list initialization and template aliases all over the place).
 
7:36 PM
I noticed. Plus, boost. @___@
Welp, guess I have to bit the bullet and use Boost sometime.
 
@ThePhD people use that?
 
I tried to change all my stuff to .c++ and .h++ a while ago,
but VS was like "This isn't C++!"
 
Just to make sure... .hpp/.h++ means a header with code in it?
 
And I was like "=["
 
7:38 PM
@Borgleader Means a C++ header.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nothing in particular I guess, but non-letter characters in file names always make me nervous
 
This is 2012!
 
@Collin Smells like Bash-based Linux.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok so .h == .hpp == .h++ ?
 
Yes.
@DeadMG Another example: consider an NFD normalizing iterator. After a starter, I need to grab all the combining marks until the next starter or until the end, before I reorder them.
 
7:39 PM
@Borgleader many people use .h for c++ headers, but some use .h for C headers, and .hpp or .hxx or .h++ for C++ headers
 
If you pile two or three levels of these things it gets insane pretty fast.
 
I use .hpp and .cpp
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait- you normalize as an iterator?
that's crazy
 
I use .h and .cpp =/
 
No, it's not. Shut up.
I lazy everything.
 
7:40 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes as someone who works with embedded implementations of FAT16 on occasion, I prefer not to press my luck
 
it's Batshit Insane
 
@Borgleader I use .h too. I reserve .hpp for "library" like files
 
no wonder you find it diffiuclt
normalization operates on a range- you're just using one iterator as a range.
 
Yes, I am not lazy enough to give up on laziness.
@DeadMG What?
The normalize function returns a range, not an iterator. It just happens to be lazy (which is a pain on the implementation-side, but perfectly nice on the client-side).
 
what I'm saying is
normalization could never be an iterator any more than sort could ever be an iterator
the algorithm fundamentally operates on a range of Unicode codepoints
 
7:43 PM
And? The fact that my logic is on an iterator changes nothing.
The function takes a range of codepoints, and returns a range of codepoints.
 
well, not if you want it done lazily
 
Erm, I have it done lazily.
 
look, gimme a sec here, I'm playing Starcraft 2 in a very tight time on lhs
 
@DeadMG How the hell do you manage to micro your units? You have paws O.o
 
7:46 PM
who said anything about microing units?
 
see how I feel in this room :P
 
@TonyTheLion This is not an accurate representation, not enough poop.
 
I'm sniffing the poop, can't you see? :P
 
7:48 PM
Shut up.
Just shut up. Please.
 
lol
now robot get's mad
hahahahah
I'm laughing
 
And yeah those are hilarious
 
7:55 PM
They spent a lot of time on Far Cry 3. I mean, they were working on it during my internship in winter 2010.
 
@TonyTheLion I am not mad. I said "please".
 
right
the point is, lazy and ranges don't really go well together
 
@EtiennedeMartel AFAIK the first AC took 5 if not 6 years to develop.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes how am I supposed to tell?! I've heard mad people say "please" too.
 
7:57 PM
hell, lazy just ain't a great thing, all in all
 
@DeadMG I don't see why.
 
mad or not, it was still funny
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes For one, it depends on the original range still being alive.
 
The thing is, you cannot make lazy stuff out of the eager stuff like you have in the standard library. You can make eager stuff out of lazy stuff very easily: just materialize it.
 
and for two, you basically have to perform the whole operation in one go anyway
there's no point in deferring it
it's not like you can get away with only half-normalizing or half-sorting if the user only checks the first five codepoints
 
7:59 PM
Yes, I can!
Unless it's a 2 followed by 10k umlauts, I can.
FTR, I also thought I couldn't at first.
 
Hm.
Is it a bad habit that I usually separate my map's data from the map itself?
 
what?
 
@ThePhD are you talking about std::map?
 
like having std::unordered_map<key_type, size_t> indices; std::vector<value_type> data;
 
yes, that's horrifically bad
 
8:01 PM
Sorting is a whole 'nother beast, because sorting does indeed need the whole range. Normalization happens in clusters of, in regex like syntax: Starter NonStarter*.
 
learn 2 boost::multi_index
 
Xeo
Yet another job for Superman! Erm, I mean, for indices. — R. Martinho Fernandes 2 hours ago
haha
 
Only ginormous clusters bring trouble, but I don't give a fuck about Zalgo.
@Xeo Oh cool, the OP made an answer out of it!
 
@DeadMG If I don't have boost, is tehre a multi_index type for the std:: ?
If not, I guess I could just go create one myself.
 
no
 
8:03 PM
WOO, legitimate reason to roll my own!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, but I'd still question how many times you normalize a string to only use part of it- in comparison to how much it costs to keep around the working space and the original range.
@ThePhD No. Just use Boost.
 
@DeadMG Don't take the adventure out of it. :c
 
@ThePhD Choose another adventure :P
 
@Borgleader Sigh. Goes and finds out how to use Boost
 
@ThePhD multi_index is an incredibly complex beast. It's not something you can home-roll in twenty minutes.
 
Xeo
8:04 PM
Indices really have become a kind of swiss army knife.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wonder why the other answer was deleted.
 
@Xeo No idea.
 
Hi all!
 
@DeadMG If you materialize it straight away, it costs the same.
 
hmm
 
@DeadMG on my machine, with test code as is CAtlList is 1.88s, and std::list is 13.3s. When I preallocated space for std::list, I got it down to 4.53s. You want to see if your allocator does better? I'm surprised that CAtlList seems so much faster!
 
8:08 PM
@MooingDuck Post code.
 
I considered adding the ability to do normalization inplace, but it is messy, so I left it for later.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That seems fairly counter-intuitive to me. Lazy evaluation is the cost of the algorithm, plus a shitload of bookkeeping.
 
@DeadMG The bookkeeping is the same bookkeeping you do when you do it eagerly. The only difference is that instead of doing the bookkeeping on local variables, you do it on the members of the iterator.
 
@DeadMG I rolled a stupid little allocator of my own for this, so it's terrible quality. Especially since testing with a C++03 compiler. That's the first half of the code. ideone.com/rJUWuS
 
Seriously, making a lazy iterator consists of grabbing the local variables into member variables and shoving that into the interface.
If only the shoving part was not nasty. But I am going to fix that.
 
8:11 PM
yeah, that's a suck implementation (mooing duck)
 
@DeadMG yes, yes it is. The important thing is the bottom three functions
I never quite figured out how to make allocators C++03 copiable right. This seemed like the easiest workaround for the moment
@DeadMG what I was going for was speed. Ugly as it is I feel like it should have been crazy fast. (For it's limited purpose)
 
... Ooh.
Underneath, std::unordered_map uses a std::vector to holds its items.
That's much better than associating it with the current bucket.
 
Well, it needs an array of buckets. What else would you expect?
 
Shrugs. Just learning how library writers would do it.
 
@ThePhD No. I am switching the design to be based on iterator-less ranges. Currently I am used iterator-based ranges (from boost). Pointers just don't cut it: what if I am iterating over a std::list?
@ThePhD The lesson here is that they did not reinvent vector for their hash table.
:P
 
8:18 PM
Yes yes, reinventing the wheel is bad.
I'm absorbing that lesson.
.... Slowly absorbing. Ahem.
 
Osmosis!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah. Now I understand. Well, okay. My implementation of Unicode currently just expects everything to be in a std::vector-like container.
 
I'm also playing with allocators. I made my first allocator that use a blob on the heap, and can be used with allocate_shared. After I finally made it work I realized that if I want to make for example shared strings, I need to specify an allocator to basic string also... But that allocator is given as a type, to the template, so it's not easily bound to an object instance.. And then I had to sleep...
 
Which, for my purposes, has been working great and fast. I just never expected someone to hand me a iterator for something like a std::list. Who would linked-list text data anywho... D:
 
@ThePhD I am going full retard generic.
 
8:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe there should be plugs in there for things that use contiguous data? I dunno if iterators for things like std::vector actually slow anything down much.
 
@ThePhD Well, yeah, std::list is a bit silly. But streams are not. And neither are ropes.
@ThePhD Why would they slow anything?
 
I duno. Overhead?
 
@ThePhD std::deque
 
@ThePhD What overhead?
 
Also, I have never seen the rope data structure ever.
 
8:22 PM
@ThePhD std::vector::iterator shold have no overhead
@ThePhD it's not standard.
 
Protip: no one randomly adds overhead to the standard library for no reason.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes except Microsoft
 
@MooingDuck I'd want them to teach me that in a data structures course though.
 
no wait, they did have a stupid reason for the deque thing, even if it is a reason.
 
8:23 PM
Rope fucking sounds cool. It looks cool.
 
@ThePhD it's super complicated.
 
@MooingDuck Which is what makes it awesome !
 
@MooingDuck What was it?
 
@MooingDuck The best speed allocator is arena.
 
@DeadMG Arena?
 
8:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes so it doesn't waste much space if you only need to allocate a small amount. I presume.
 
@ThePhD Memory arena.
 
LOoks it up and hits stuff about psychology.
 
@MooingDuck Oh you are right. It's a stupid reason.
 
Hm. Maybe if I add a C++ tag to teh query.
 
@ThePhD It's basically the same way the hardware stack operates. You allocate one giant chunk of memory and just give it out. Then you free it all at the same time.
it's ridiculously efficient
 
8:29 PM
Can anyone enlighten me as to how to step into the assignment operator in gdb?
Or even just tell which one was called?
 
So one new, one delete, and then millions of virtualnew and virtualdelete that just keeps track of what's in use and what's not?
I'd imagine if you back-deleted something, though, like an integer before a giant byte buffer, you could end up with some fragmentation.
 
@ThePhD You are supposed to delete the whole thing in one go.
 
no
 
@ThePhD you would, but it prevents fragmentation in the "real" heap. It's (as he said) far faster, and if only used from one thread, you can skip all the locking, making it faster still.
 
well, that's curious
even with my arena, CAtlList still matches my speed
 
8:34 PM
Cat list is awesome.
 
Catalyst?
 
@DeadMG well if you matched it, then that means they also have an arena probably.
@DeadMG also: send me your arena.
 
@MooingDuck A pool should be roughly as performant for this case, I think.
the arena mainly beats the pool because it can allocate any type, not because it's fundamentally faster for allocating one type
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the Cat has an awesome list?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was thinking in terms of like, the virutaldelete. The real heap is unfragmented, yes, but the virtual heap or pool you've created could get fragmented and may not fit things like two large buffers, or worse, one large buffer stuck in the middle of the arena you've created and thus you can't allocate anything quite as big without either moving some stuff or expanding the arena.
Or making a new arena.
or something.
 
8:36 PM
@ThePhD You don't move anything. It's like a stack, remember?
 
@ThePhD usually, all the things in a single pool are the same size, so there's no fragmentation (not sure about arenas)
 
@MooingDuck That's a pool.
 
@DeadMG whoops
 
@ThePhD Right, but very large buffers aren't really in the use case of the arena- they're already very fast to allocate per size from the general-purpose memory allocator.
 
Ah. So the arenas are just specialized for the small jobs.
 
8:38 PM
where "small" depends on how big you make the chunks
 
And big stuff can go elsewhere.
 
they're optimized for lots of small allocations in a short time
and then deallocate all at once
 
Nods.
 
pools on the other hand are optimized for lots of allocations of the same type
but they're completely flexible in when you alloc or dealloc
 
Mmm... alright. Makes sense!
I think. ... Mostly.
 
8:39 PM
well
on a simple level, the default allocator has to be completely unrestricted
it has to allocate any object, any size, any time, and deallocate any object, any size, any time.
by tightening the constraints, optimizations are possible
very significant ones
 
Mmm....
 
i wonder whether SO should introduce "named code"
 
I was thinking if I was going to recreate my Dictionary class, instead of using a std::vector to store buckets that also contained a TValue on it, I was just going to have a TValue* pointer which pointed to something in the Pool<TValue>.
 
so you could say #include <SO:my_name>.
(in a language specific syntax)
and it will pick up the code block you wrote in some answer called my_name
 
@ThePhD std::unordered_map, done.
 
8:42 PM
it would include that code there
 
@DeadMG Siiiiigh. Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.
 
lol
hey
when I was new, I also hated using the Standard components
 
... and then it is discovered "named code" is turing complete and massive shenanigans are had
 
0
Q: What paths should I use to install cross-compiled packages to?

Johannes Schaub - litbI have installed a MinGW-W64 into $HOME/mingw32: ~$ ls -l mingw32 insgesamt 32 drwxr-xr-x 2 js js 4096 16. Aug 16:41 bin drwxr-xr-x 10 js js 4096 26. Nov 14:49 i686-w64-mingw32 drwxr-xr-x 2 js js 4096 16. Aug 16:28 include drwxr-xr-x 3 js js 4096 16. Aug 16:41 lib drwxr-xr-x 3 js js 4096 16....

no answer yet :(
 
but I may actually be forced to create my own
 
8:43 PM
weird who voted to close it
 
silly Standard Committee fucked up the interface
 
Your own what?
Deque?
 
and MSVC's debug ones are terribad
 
no, hash map/set
 
8:43 PM
hmm i guess it belongs on unix.SE
or programmers.SE
 
My Dictionary class I created looking at the latest research in concurrent and resilient Hash Maps, so I feel a certain bit of pride in using it.
Plus the interface - despite the capital letter functions - I feel is like 200000% superior to std::unordered_map
 
resilient hash maps?
resilient to what, your mother sitting on it and squishing it?
3
 
@DeadMG Ones that can handle resizing and concurrency issues.
Especially when they get gigantic.
 
@ThePhD Difficult to see how you could have done better than unordered_map, except for the additional functions the Standard forgot.
 
But that's really for like, database stuff.
 
8:45 PM
@ThePhD IOW, you engineered it to face problems you don't have
 
@DeadMG Yeah... pretty much...
 
and are bad anyway
 
Hey hey hey it works fine.
 
I mean, by having a concurrent-mutation hash map, you'd be blowing your single-threaded performance
specialist stuff like concurrent mutation data structures should be, well, specialist- not a general replacement
 
~Siiigh~
Hm. Maybe if I wrap all these std:: classes in my own wrappers than provide function names and functionality that I like to have.
Or maybe I should just read the docs and get used to the lowercase underscore monster that is the std:: and just get comfortable with it for the rest of my C++ life forever and ever. ... The tears.
 
8:51 PM
or invent your own language and fail to implement it because LLVM sucks
that's what I did
@MooingDuck Any results with that?
 
Breaking News: Wide development a failure
3
?
 
hardly breaking
or, indeed, news
 
It is more of a daily reminder than breaking news
 
8:53 PM
@Pubby :(
 
Hmm, this bread is great.
 
Tbh, I though Wide was still in development. It's kind of sad to hear it's not. :c
 
C++11 question. Interesting one I might add.
 
OOOH
I COULD PUT MY EVENT IMPLEMENTATION IN THERE AS AN ANSWE- oh, wait. No I can't. :c
He's talking about the observer pattern. What I did doesn't truly count. :c
 
I never understood what an observer was
 
8:57 PM
'recommended'... sounds like a poll :) — xtofl 47 secs ago
 
@ThePhD There's little way to continue with it. LLVM doesn't support Windows. What am I gonna do, write my own native code generator?
 
Is it just a list callbacks?
 
@Pubby kinda. Usually the listeners are classes.
 
@DeadMG Ditch windows, acquire freedom.
 
not a chance in hell
 
8:59 PM
This image makes it so much easier to understand
 
@Pubby it does, if you know your basic UML...
 
Xeo
Fuck UML.
 
not only do I develop on and use Windows exclusively and there's no way I'm changing
 

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