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12:00 AM
In JPEG it's probably to limit the possible values.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "It's overloaded chat message"
 
damnit
I should go to bed
 
I can't listen to any BOC song without thinking of cowbells. I'm ruined.
 
12:02 AM
I should have done this crap two weeks ago.
 
@CatPlusPlus what crap?
 
CG assignment.
The worst part is that lecture sucked as usual, so I have barely any tangible information to go on.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm curious, how do you fill a vertex buffer with a custom vertex data type in Java?
 
I mean, what the heck do you pass to VertexAttribPointer's last parameter.
 
12:04 AM
I'm doing everything in software.
Anyway, it's probably some JNI magical stuff.
 
oh damn
 
@TonyTheLion Avatar actually called the unobtainium they were going to mine in Pandora "unobtainium". So that there were no doubts about it.
@CatPlusPlus But you can't refer to a particular member.
Oh wait, reflection.
Gosh, no.
That can't be.
 
JOGL exposes raw byte buffers I think.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh wow, interesting
never watched that movie in its entirity, thought it was boring
 
@TonyTheLion You can probably find that in the list below the trope description :)
 
12:08 AM
moved on to another trope already :P
 
Oh, you don't read the full thing?
 
When did this become a not-objective-c room?
:-)
 
Tomorrow.
 
lulz
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh yes I did read it, but not all the examples
 
12:10 AM
You're doing it wrong.
 
what?
I'm reading TVTropes wrongly???
 
You always read it all.
Everything.
 
even all the specific movie examples?
wtf???
 
12:11 AM
Only then you're ready to pop another tab of your now gigantic queue.
 
where is the guide on How to read TVTropes?
and you click all the links on the way?
 
It's simple. Read all of it and click anything that looks remotely interesting.
 
but then it never ends...
 
^ just copied link from facebook (courtesy of Dom De Vitto (originally posted by Catherine Savage))
 
and is worse then Reddit
 
12:12 AM
That's the point.
 
@TonyTheLion Why do you think we keep saying that?
@TonyTheLion Not all. I only click links for shows that sound interesting. But I click pretty much every link to a trope I haven't read yet, or don't remember all too well.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh ffs, you really are ruining my chances of survival
 
One of us, one of us!
 
oh internetz, your links are ruining my life
 
I think you're starting to get it now.
 
12:14 AM
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 
hi there
anyone participating in codesprint?
 
hello ?
 
seems empty :P
 
Life's empty.
 
Xeo
I'm still stuck on TVTropes.
 
12:23 AM
im stuck at codesprint problem :D
 
What's codesprint?
 
Seems to be one of those silly auto-checked competitions with no debugging capabilities whatsoever.
 
ye
 
Ends 8pm PST. When will Americans learn that there's more world out there?
 
12:26 AM
> This edition of CodeSprint will introduce Real World Problems.
Lol.
And then "no NumPy for Python".
Real world my ass.
 
some problem are nice but lack of detailed description and testcases sux
like I solved Polygon problem using ray casting
and it timed out
so I optimized
 
Waste of time.
 
but still
 
Also PST can refer to any of three different time zones.
Why won't they just use fucking UTC?
 
so there must be solution <O(n^2)
 
12:28 AM
Because they can't add.
 
standard Pacific is one, isnt it?
 
Pacific Standard Time (UTC-8), Pakistan Standard Time (UTC+5), or Phillipines Standard Time (UTC+8).
 
I'm sure it's the Pakistan one.
 
na pewno :P
 
Anyway, I have no idea what "Polygon problem" is.
 
12:34 AM
"Here's a polygon. How would Superman set it on fire?"
Perfect application of ray casting.
 
He would use his super-polygon-burning power.
 
Lasers!
 
Hello guys
Need a llittle bit of help here..
anyone here?
 
We're over capacity. You'll have to take a number.
 
Okay. number 1?
 
12:41 AM
lol
 
;)
 
No one can help you if you don't state your problem.
 
okay..
I am sharpening my OOP concepts. have been programming in c and c++ for around 6 years but still don't respect my code as much
i mix c and c++ a lot of times and don't like it
i am looking over to find a project which i can work on and help me in sharpening my c++ skills
 
You can't go on not respecting code like this. It has feelings too, you know.
 
yeah, thats what i am scared about. I don't wanna disrespect anymore
 
12:44 AM
Step 1. Forget everything about C. Step 2. Read a C++ book.
Then any project will do.
 
Consider reading "Effective C++" if you haven't already.
 
i have been reading books since past 1 or 2 months
i bough effective C++ as a new year gift to myself
but haven't read it yet..
 
If you still think about C when writing C++ then those weren't very good books.
 
i don't actually.. but you know, you become a better programmer by practicing.. thats what i have been doing from past month or so
and now i want to do some interesting project, which helps me find problems in my code and so that i can learn more
My name is Leoheart by the way. thanks for replying
 
Yeah, we've noticed.
 
12:48 AM
i am also trying to find some projects which i can find online and get paid
but haven't found yet.
so help me here :)
 
I only write C++ for fun. I don't know of any project online where you can get paid.
 
I, for one, never needed that.
 
Reading the C++ code Google puts out might improve your skills quite a bit.
 
forget about paid projects...
but atleast for some learning and experience
 
@ChristianJonassen Google uses C++ with weird restrictions because of their legacy codebase (like, no exceptions). I wouldn't recommend their code for learning good practices.
 
12:51 AM
will it. i think all it will do is confuse me and irriate me when i wont understand most of the times...
yaa
 
Yeah, stay away from anything that's written under the influence of Google style guide.
 
okay..
now tell me what to do..
considering that i wanna code and enjoy it too..
 
Find something you need, and write it.
 
i code 8 hrs a day everyday though.. at my job
that makes sense, but i dont remeember that i need anything
remember&=**
:(
 
Really? I didn't realize that. Well, good to know!
 
12:55 AM
Find something you don't need and write it!
:)
 
Man....
 
Also, argh, kill me.
 
@CatPlusPlus If I don't, I'm sure the Java will.
 
Leoheart: Write a Super Mario clone. :)
@RMartinhoFernandes what now?
 
super Mario clone, you mean the game?
 
12:57 AM
Hmmmm... anyone here have any experience with wrapping up C++ libs in CLI wrappers?
 
one i used 2 play 15 years before and could never finish
lol
 
@Leoheart yes, the game.
 
These lectures are completely fucking useless.
 
do you think that it is good for a learner, atleast at the intermediate stage?
 
@CatPlusPlus Now you sound like the puppy.
 
12:58 AM
Platformers like Super Mario are rather rudimentary and a good novice level project to practice game development.
I would suggest something even simpler. Pong/Arkanoid clones.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's what universities do to people.
 
@CatPlusPlus But you're learning to do OpenGL in Java!
That's got to count for something.
I mean, @thecosh needed help with that the other day.
 
WHARRGARBL.
I'm not using OpenGL.
 
Though it might have been for an university project as well.
@CatPlusPlus Oh, what are you using then?
 
I have to rasterise myself.
2
 
1:01 AM
Oh.
Ugh.
In Java?
 
So, I take it no one is messing with C++/CLI wrappers? ^^() Figured I'd ask quickly here as opposed to posting a question if it's a quick one.
 
arkanoid sounds cool
but sounds like 1 month project?
i came here to practice and improve my OOP concepts
 
Oh no no no.
I mean, if you're really, really new to programming in general, sure.
 
I think it depends on your pace, and on how much you want to overdo it.
 
If you've got some basics down, you can easily practice OOP with it.
 
1:03 AM
Okay Sion
 
You've got a game with a paddle, a ball, and bricks.
 
Also, keep in mind that OOP is not what C++ is all about.
 
hmm
 
Of course. C++ is a multi-paradigm language. You can be as procedural or OOP as you'd like.
 
I can do a hello world in a month.
 
1:04 AM
Sion one question, that coloring and all here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkanoid, is it done by QT
?
haha...
i can do hello world in 30 seconds//lol
 
What? Uh... no. That was probably done with direct memory access on some console's specific hardware.
 
I'm pretty sure there was no Qt for arcade machines.
 
You can get away with using any of various graphics APIs.
 
all i ever did in c and c++ as a programmer was networking programming
which rarely ever made me do OOP and all
okkay
graphic APIs sounds good
Sion, lemme look into it
 
There's Direct3D, there's OpenGl, and there's GDI. On Windows at least.
 
1:07 AM
i have never programmed in c++ on windows platform except when i was in college, they used to make me work on Turbo c++
Unix :)
 
Direct3D offers a C++ style API. OpenGL is a very C style API. GDI also offers a C++ style API.
 
i understood your point though
 
Well, what platform are you developing on?
 
Mac(Unix)
 
OpenGL it is :) You'll love it.
 
1:08 AM
On OSX it's either Quartz or OpenGL.
 
Okay
lemme read to it...
i wanna get a job which i love.. which is c++ base development
based**
 
I'd say go for OpenGL. If you're going to practice game development, PC is the dominant non-console platform, so Direct3D is pretty big, but OpenGL works on both PC, Mac, and anything else.
 
You can edit messages. Read the newbie hints ->
 
Okay, i will
Okay...
Sorry for naive way of talking and stupid spell mistakes
 
Don't stress it.
 
1:10 AM
hmm..
 
I'm completely at a loss here with my CLI class library wrapper for my C++ static library.
 
haha... sorry buddy, i cant help in it...
 
I've made a really simple setup and tested it. No problem. Bare bones project to test how to do it.
Trying to get my actual project to compile however, no dice. Linker errors in the CLI class library for every single function in the native static library.
 
@SionSheevok You haven't stated your problem yet :)
 
One question, is there any way i can specifially ask question from a person..
 
1:12 AM
Or linked to a question on the site, if you have one.
 
like if i wanan ask any question with Sion here, can i...like an email .. in general..
 
I haven't made one yet, I'm planning to if no one has any suggestions here.
 
@Leoheart No. But why would you want to limit your choices?
 
directx? opengl? tho OOP way is to use AbstractRenderEngine
 
@Abyx: If you want him to implement an entire wrapper interface around a graphics API, sure. Then yes, it'll take him several months to accomplish Arkanoid.
 
1:14 AM
I believe he was trying a joke.
 
:)
 
I hope. :P
 
his goal is good OOP code, not a working arkanoid
 
His goal is to practice OOP.
If he's trying to learn it, simple is the way to learn. Build upon a foundation.
 
OOP is not a goal.
 
1:17 AM
TDD + mock classes is enough for practicing
 
I'm starting to hate CG.
Really, really, really hate.
 
@Abyx: You should start teaching classes, see how well that approach works.
 
Forgot to mention but Happy new year everyone :)
 
btw, there is a good book on learning C++ via TDD - schuchert.wikispaces.com/…
 
TDD sounds kind of wrong-headed for C++. because with TDD your focus is on putting the important constraints into the tests. while the C++ mindset is to put them into the code so they're enforced by the compiler (and the common kinds of tests don't catch that)
Still, I think unless the guy's writing and skills is very much below par it's sad to see him refused by at least one publisher. Because that's the kind of dissenting viewpoint that one can learn from.
It's like, Pirzig's classic "The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" was refused by 112 publishers, it has the Guinness Record for that; it was too unusual. And Dire Straits were originally refused by a lot of record companies, too unusual. The people who make the decisions apparently have no sense of quality.
 
1:28 AM
Publishers suck. Two words: Atlanta Nights.
 
:-) never heard of it, but a similar but kind of reverse test was performed in Norway some years ago. an original high quality but little known manuscript by Hamsun (one of our greatest writers, unfortunately also with nazi sympathies) was rejected by several publishing houses. of course didn't fit into current trend.
Atlanta Nights is a collaborative novel created in 2004 by a group of science fiction and fantasy authors, with the express purpose of producing a bad piece of work of unpublishable quality to test whether publishing firm PublishAmerica would still accept it. It was accepted, but after the hoax was revealed, the publisher withdrew its offer. The primary purpose of the exercise was to test PublishAmerica's claims to be a "traditional publisher" which would only accept high-quality manuscripts. Critics have long claimed that PublishAmerica is actually a vanity press which pays no special at...
 
Atlanta Nights is really beyond absurd.
Some chapters were computer-generated, there's a missing chapter, there's a chapter that is a letter-by-letter copy of another...
I tried to read it once, but I stopped about the third chapter. The thing is really bad.
 
Well the thing about Really Bad Boooks (RBB(TM)) is that you soon forget the plot, so when you need a book to read anew you can just pick it up again. Or down. I did that for Christmas, then between Christmas and New Years Eve discovered that I had again forgotten the plot, so I could really have started at the start again
 
Fever :)
 
Oh, you can forget the plot of Atlanta Nights every time a chapter ends.
 
1:37 AM
i read this on christmas...pretty nice one..sorry to interrupt
 
1:54 AM
hm, national treasure II may be one of those Really Bad Movies that i've forgotten i've seen before
 
Yeah… my Chinese friend (poor English) saw that one and commented how retarded the plot was. Apparently it did explain a bit about Washington, DC's geography though.
 
user457812
My amazon seems to have learned to say "derp derp"
 
2:33 AM
Windows 7 is currently using about 142 GB of the 149.9 GB on drive C. I have all data on a separate partition D. I'm now shrinking D in order to give C like 40 GB more room for Windows. Ubuntu installs and lives fine in 20 GB, and reportedly even in just 10 GB. What is it with Windows? I expect it to fill up those new 40 GB pretty fast too -- and this is an almost new laptop!
 
Tons of drivers so that every possible peripheral or device ever conceived just works when plugged in?
 
@AlfPSteinbach Have you tried: windirstat.info
 
Hm, it turned out I can't (via Disk Manager at least) extend the C partition
@Mysticial no, will do. thanks!
Probably best to install that on D, though...
 
extreme, there are 42.5 GB in .log files (textual logs)
 
2:44 AM
GOTTA PRINT THEM ALL
 
lol
 
oh they're mostly all from Windows Installer (installation logs), and mostly all in [c:\windows\temp]
clean up the temp files alf!
del . && for /d %d in (*) do @rd /s/q "%d"
Ah!
temp directory reduced from 42.5 GB to 48 KB :-)
 
Xeo
@AlfPSteinbach You can clean up temporary files without the command line, y'know. :)
 
Xeo
right-click C:, properties (or however it's called in english), cleanup (or hower...)
And select "temporary files"
 
2:52 AM
no that didn't work
 
Xeo
Oh?
That's interesting
 
i tried that while still on holiday
the disk cleanup utility
?
 
@AlfPSteinbach - fwiw, my current development setup is Lubuntu taking up 5GB in vbox sitting on top of OS X so 10GB is more than enough
 
How did you get that many temps anyway? I haven't reinstalled Windows in like 2 years, and it hasn't come anywhere near to that much bloat.
 
I don't even have 150 GB on my HD for Windows to bloat away.
 
Xeo
2:54 AM
My Debian install took 6gig I think, with a near-full installation (ssh, sql, php server etc)
 
And it's a Windows 7 old (pretty much release day) install.
 
Xeo
My Windows 7 on my SSD takes 17gigs
 
well now the biggest single impact on drive C is the 20 GB virtual disk for Ubuntu
 
Xeo
@AlfPSteinbach Dynamically sized?
 
Xeo
2:56 AM
Hm
Now I'm wondering
If windows takes 17gig out of my ~38gig used space.. what the fuck cloggs up the rest?!
 
18GB here. I have no idea how that could have been blown out of proportion into 140GB.
@Xeo Temp crap?
 
Xeo
Yeah. Maybe a virus that silently loads porn into your windows folder?
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes That was 1gig I just cleaned up (according to the cleanup tool of windows)
 
My "Windows" folder is at 24GB and counting... I've never cleaned this system up at all.
 
Xeo
2:58 AM
I'll fire up CCleaner in a second..
Ok, so my Program Files folder holds 10gig
 
The short time I used Vista, I had to regularly clean up the crash reports. A memory dump on a recent machine is huge.
 
Xeo
leaving ~10gig missing
All other folders combined take 8gig
2-3gig missing
 
Windows: 25.4 GB
Program Files (x86): 69.7 GB
Recycling Bin: 70.4 GB
 
Xeo
Holy shit, the ProgramData alone takes nearly 5gig
@Mysticial lol @ Recycling Bin
 
Woah, 70GB in Recycle Bin.
Ouch.
 
3:01 AM
@Xeo Yep, I never empty it. Windows automatically deletes stuff when it reaches a certain % of the total disk size. And I've never ran out of space on this HD since it's just the boot drive.
 
@Mysticial It does?
 
Xeo
Yep
 
Since I pretty much only delete stuff when I need more space, I find the recycle bin a bit useless.
 
Xeo
You can even change the settings
 
But if it does that, I guess I've been a little silly.
 
Xeo
3:02 AM
Right-click the Bin -> Properties (or however...)
 
I'd have to do some hoops to get the bin. I don't have it on the desktop.
 
Xeo
lol
It's still listed under winkey-e -> Desktop
 
Ah, opening an explorer window for the desktop shows it.
 
Xeo
aka in the explorer view
Damn you, slow connection!
 
OMG, so many .cs files.
 
3:05 AM
I never fill my boot drive up mainly because it slows it down.
Empty drives are blazingly fast...
 
Seems like deleting stuff from Visual Studio sends it to recycle bin.
 
Haha... my two anime drives look retarded in windirstat...
 
You use Recycle Bin?
I automatically use Shift-Delete.
 
@CatPlusPlus Me too, but VS sends stuff there.
 
You use VS?
 
3:10 AM
For C#, yes.
 
@CatPlusPlus I used to do that. Then I'd shoot myself whenever I accidentally deleted something I didn't want to yet.
 
I don't delete stuff I don't want to delete.
 
I make mistakes... So I prefer that recycling bin just in case I screw up. And disk-space isn't a problem for me. (on my desktops at least)
 
You know what's really awesome? To have your 1.5TB hard drive fail one month after the warranty expired.
You should try it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ouch. How old was it? My second SSD failed suddenly and catastrophically on me 10 months in - I couldn't RMA it because it contains too much sensitive info. So that one hurt. Not just monetarily, but the data that I lost thinking that SSDs were supposed to be "more reliable".
 
3:19 AM
@Mysticial 2 years and a month.
Yeah, the money was not the worst part. The worst of it all was losing stuff that I can't find on the Internet.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That sucks... Though 2-year warranties are short for HDs. Yeah, the data is much more valuable than the drive...
 
@Mysticial are SSDs largest benefit "faster boot times"?
 
@kfmfe04 Yes, it's amazing...
 
@Mysticial besides that, any others? (I don't reboot my machines except once in a blue moon - I leave them in sleep)
 
Why would small particles of dust in the atmosphere lead you to reboot your machine?
 
3:24 AM
every 6 months or so, I think about trying out an SSD, but since I do a lot of drive-grinding (compiling), don't know if that's a good idea...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I typically have 2 copies of everything in two physical locations. The problem right now is that I'm in Illinois. We get tornadoes. And my backups are in my dorm and my work. So if a tornado path happens to intersect those two points, I'm screwed, for life.
@kfmfe04 They're extremely fast for anything that does a lot of seeks. (searching, paging, etc...) Some of the newer SSDs are a lot faster than HDs for sequential copying. But I don't have any of those 3rd gen SSDs... (I only have my 1st gen, and my 2nd gen died...)
But in the end, I also never reboot. And all my important rigs have enough memory to buffer everything I use on a daily basis... So for me, no SSD isn't that great except on my laptop.
 
@Mysticial so it sounds like it might be good for data that's not crucial but gets read into memory quite often (maybe like a replicated mostly read-only mysql) - but I guess CPU caching/lots of RAM would also overlap into this kind of functionality... ...so many different solutions for bottlenecks these days...
 
Xeo
@kfmfe04 "faster boot times" does not even begin to describe it
 
@Mysticial thx for that last note on SSD on laptops - I suspected that - guess I'm kind-of old-school - just add more RAM and leave machines on all the time
 
Xeo
My machine shuts down in like 5 seconds, and boots up in maybe 20
 
3:32 AM
@kfmfe04 Yeah. If you don't reboot, the best bet is just to go overboard on ram. 12GB or 16GB of ram will buffer all common Windows files and as well as most of the stuff I use, "firefox, Visual Studio, Itunes..."
 
@Xeo I prolly boot less than once a month so I'm not worried about that - more concerned about hardware crapping out, etc... have SSD reliability improved?
@Mysticial thx for the tip
 
Xeo
That I don't know. I got mine nearly a year ago IIRC
Still going strong
Didn't really get to use it until 4 month earlier though
 
@kfmfe04 Read the reviews before you buy. Some are very reliable. Some aren't. My model apparently had a 10% failure rate within the first year. Of course I got it right when it came out, so nobody knew yet.
 
@Mysticial - ic - ok - I will prolly hold off on SSDs for a bit then - really looking forward to the new Sandy Bridge chips due for release - the preliminary benchmarks on them seem impressive (anything to cut down on compile times makes me happy)
 
@kfmfe04 The e-series Sandies are already released. I've already seem some people submit benchmarks with 8 x 8GB configurations at 4+ GHz.
 
3:39 AM
@Mysticial I'm looking forward to those E3's and E5's (tho these seem unreasonably expensive) - I don't think the Xeons are overclockable, are they?
 
@kfmfe04 It depends on the motherboard. Back in the early 1366 days, every single dual 1366 mobo has a frequency cap IC on the board. This prevented base clocks higher 135 MHz, and pissed off everyone.
The idea was to prevent the lower-binned chips from competing with the higher-end ones.
And then EVGA broke that contract and made the SR2 board which doesn't have that frequency limiter.
The multipliers on the Xeons are certainly all locked, but of course you can do wonders with the base clock. (if the motherboard allows it)
 
@Mysticial normally, I don't think much about overclocking, but some of those cheaper E5 chips clock-in at the 2.0GHz range - if these can be overclocked safely, it certainly would be worth a try (I will keep an eye out for mobos)
 
It can be tricky - as the cheaper versions are probably clocked at that speed for a reason - they didn't pass Intel's stability criteria for the higher speeds. Of course we know that they have pretty strict (large) head-rooms - which allows OCing in the first place.
If you play with a lower-end chip, it's usually easy to see why it's clocked at the lower-end. Usually one of the cores are (unusually) less stable than the other cores - a small defect.
But, if you're lucky, you might get a chip that was clocked at the lower speed to meet demand... Those ones clock like wonders!
 
yup - I know what you mean - you have to get lucky with the chip that you draw...
 
My roommate back in my undergrad got a Phenom X3 and unlocked that 4th core... it was pretty clear why it was an X3... lol
IIRC that 4th core clocked like 400 MHz less than the 3 good cores. We had to up the voltage to something dangerous to get it to pass a benchmark at 3.2 GHz with all 4 cores.
 
3:53 AM
have you heard anything about Bulldozer? Press is saying that Sandies are rendering the Bulldozers obsolete, but I wonder if there's a degree of hype in that... (all those cores on the AMD chips make me salivate)
 
@kfmfe04 Bulldozer never looked good from the start - as nearly every single (leaked) benchmark showed that it was slower than even AMD's own K10... It didn't get much better by the time it retailed.
 
ok - I will stay safe with the Sandies this round then
 
Bulldozer has the huge advantage of having a huge number of "cores". There's a difference between "core" and "module", as every pair of cores shares the same FPU... :(
 
 
1 hour later…
Xeo
5:10 AM
I FINALLY MANAGED TO CLOSE ALL TVTROPES TABS D:
2
 
user457812
Did you look up O-Ring Orifice yet?
 
@Xeo Dude, it's 6 in the morning where you're at.
 
Xeo
I know
And I had to pull myself together to finally get rid of all the tabs. :(
 
I know how that is. It's "oh, from now on I'll only click on really really interesting links, so I don't open more tabs". And it doesn't work. It's the Just One More Level effect.
 
Xeo
I'm so not gonna click that.
I actually want to get to sleep today, y'know.
 
5:15 AM
lol
 
Xeo
Also, isn't it 5am where you are?
 
Xeo
Hm. That Boost mutant thingy is actually pretty smart.
 
Hy guys , Good Morning !!
Can any one help me to capture the peak of sound ?
or any sample code that could help me .
 
Xeo
5:33 AM
Anyways, off to sleep. good "night"
 
 
3 hours later…
8:46 AM
What's up with all the developers/engineers taking up support work for no extra charge / compensation?
 
Maybe not everyone cares about charging for everything.
 
And they don't mind losing a weekend every month, every year too!!!
It kinda eats into one's personal time doesn't it?
 
Dunno. I wouldn't want to do support even for money.
 
@CatPlusPlus can you spell troll? Hehe
G'morning by the way
 

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