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2:00 PM
you're not talking about "People who could use fire and cook food survived 1% better than average"
 
@jalf First we learned to prefer it, then came to depend on it as our guts shrank.
 
A change in environment would allow a useless trait to suddenly become useful (like having a probe that senses light, suddenly adds to success when the water they inhabit loses cloudiness)
 
you'd be talking about massive increases in the survivability
 
@Potatoswatter but how did we learn to prefer it? Or when?
 
sbi
@jalf A Savannah has fires often enough if you have a couple of million years to spend, and humans didn't need to find the roasted beasts yummy when they were hungry enough. OTOH, some domestic animals (dogs, cat, pigs) don't mind cooked food. It's much easier to digest, so more nutritions, aka bang for buck.
 
2:00 PM
also, I'd suggest that there are natural places where you might find it
for example, in forest fires
 
Don't forget, humans have moved from just biologically evolving to technologically evolving; and that is fast evolution right there
 
sbi
@thecoshman Ah, Ok. (Couldn't you have said this in plain words right away?)
 
@sbi I'm not sure that something fried by a forest fire counts as "easier to digest" though
 
@DeadMG Probably charcoal, no?
 
depends on if you fried it on purpose
 
2:01 PM
@jalf Preference for cooked food arose after we stopped dying to so many diseases because we cooked food. So let's say 10/10000 people liked their food cooked, they survive and the rest die.
 
it has to be cooked well in order to be preferable over raw food
 
@sbi I probably could have, but where is the fun in that :P
 
@jalf Exactly.
 
and I'm thinking well cooked steaks re something of a rarity in nature
 
Als
whoa camp fires!
 
2:01 PM
there's a difference between making fire and stealing an already-on-fire branch
 
even when you take forest fires and lightning into account
 
well, in some of the hotter arenas, you might just need a sunny day and a good rock
 
sbi
@jalf If it isn't totally burned, but merely roasted, it's easier to digest. That is why we go to the trouble and cook our food, after all.
 
@jalf a nice medium rare is probably harder to come buy
 
@DeadMG yeah, but the kind of species who goes "oh hey, there's a burning log. I'm going to stick my food into it and see what happens", and then 10 minutes later goes "ewww, it's inedible now", and then keeps doing it until their bodies adapt to enjoy the taste, and they learn to cook it properly is so dumb that they're unlikely to survive for long ;)
 
2:03 PM
@sbi Right, but finding accidentally roasted meat on the wild is not common enough to have an effect, is it?
 
I think it's more likely that it began as an accident
 
Als
@sbi: Cook? But then there is raw meat...
 
@Als Humans develop fire, fire adds to survival because animals are afraid of fire. One fine day, food falls into fire, humans realize food lasts longer after cooked. Humans start cooking food. Humans who know how to cook survive longer.
 
@sbi yeah and that's my point. Just how often does "merely roasted" occur in nature?
 
@jalf But it's not inedible.
 
2:03 PM
@jalf No, it takes no adaptation to eat cooked food. Cats and dogs like it just fine. You only have to get used to the lack of taste of blood, but that's not really physiological.
 
@DeadMG You're right, I should have said "tasted worse"
 
I believe that even our primitive human senses would have readily identified a steak as more delicious than raw meat
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes First, I just said that evolution had a couple of million years to develop that. Then, it's mostly assumed that humanoids back then were eating carrion anyway. Eating carrion after a bush fire isn't that strange.
 
for example, the smell
 
point is that our tastebuds were apparently adapted to like the taste
 
2:04 PM
that doesn't mean that they didn't like the taste to begin with
 
Als
@Xaade: Humans who know how to cook survive longer References please :P
 
sbi
@jalf "A Savannah has fires often enough if you have a couple of million years to spend..."
 
only that people who liked the taste more survived better
 
@sbi but it has to happen often enough to actually affect your evolution
 
I believe cooking food was initially a preservation technique. Just as sushi was not initially designed for eating.
 
2:05 PM
Also bear in mind that many vegetables really are inedible until cooked.
 
if I may speak on a different subject for but a moment, red tape sucks ass
 
Finding a nice medium cooked steak once every 100,000 years isn't going to affect your tastebuds much
 
Als
@thecoshman: Red Tape shoes?
I agree
 
sbi
@jalf No, they were, following current popular theories, adapted to eat rotting carrion. It being roasted might not be all that bad.
 
2:05 PM
Throwing a little lemon juice on food results in the same. Now you have a culture that eats raw fish and survives better. Cooking food wasn't universal.
 
@Als what?
 
So it's possible that we did that first, then moved on to meat. I'm not a prehistoric anthropologist, just throwing it out there.
 
Als
56 secs ago, by thecoshman
if I may speak on a different subject for but a moment, red tape sucks ass
 
@sbi hmm, yeah, but even then, we had to be set up to prefer cooked meat over raw, and I'm just having difficulty seeing where this preference comes from
 
@DeadMG Unless cooking was for preservation. Why does it have to be an enjoyment. I take medicine. I don't enjoy getting shots at the doctor. You forget that humans are smart.
 
2:06 PM
I don't think we have yet found evidence of any other species doing anything like cooking. The closest is using a stick to get food
 
27 secs ago, by Xaade
@DeadMG Unless cooking was for preservation. Why does it have to be an enjoyment. I take medicine. I don't enjoy getting shots at the doctor. You forget that humans are smart.
 
@Xaade But a nicely cooked steak is an enjoyment.
 
@Als are you not familiar with the phrase 'red tape'?
 
Als
@Xaade: Maybe cooking gave people orgasms, how would you know not so?
 
@thecoshman Bees process food quite a bit.
 
2:07 PM
Royal jelly! Honey!
Yum.
 
@Xaade Give evolution two million years and you'll orgasm when given an innoculation.
 
sbi
@Xaade Some bushmen folks in Africa had no way to preserve their food. When they made a kill, they ate everything at once. (They had incredible stretchable stomachs.) When they made no kill, they stayed hungry. I doubt humans could have lost the technique of preserving food.
 
Als
@thecoshman: I wouldn't be sounding so stupid right now If i realised what you meant would i
 
@Als I'm pretty sure that people who eat better generally have more orgasms, yes…
 
@RMartinhoFernandes we enjoy sweet things because as we evolved it was hard for us to get them so it was like an incentive for us to try to get foods like honey
 
2:08 PM
@Potatoswatter I'd expect that those who don't tend to die sooner and therefore have less orgasms.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Ugh, honey...
 
@Als let's put it this way, the internet red tap says I have to mock you either way, idiot :P
 
There are other cultures that have developed foods from preservation techniques that don't involve cooking, and later developed a taste for it. I believe that survival dictates taste. Some cultures eat haggis long after it doesn't add to survival. Some cultures eat raw food that's preserved in different manners.
 
sbi
@jalf For the same reason we prefer meat over vegetables, sweet food over bitter food, etc. — bang for buck. Roasted meat is easier to digest, thus your incestinces can distill more nutrients from it. Thus they liked it more.
 
Als
@thecoshman: What the fuck do you mean?
 
2:09 PM
@Xeo What? You don't like bee saliva mixed with plant nectar?
 
@Als do you need me to explain the notion or 'red tape'?
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes No, not particularly.
 
@sbi the difference is that meat and vegetables are both available "naturally", so there was a kind of evolutionary pressure to prefer what's "best"
 
@sbi That kind of makes my point doesn't it.
If we preferred cooked food, they'd eventually find a way to cook it.
 
Als
@thecoshman: Nevermind.
 
2:10 PM
but there was very little pressure prefer meat treated in a way that simply didn't exist
 
@Als :P
 
sbi
@thecoshman There's bitter stuff that's hard to get, and we haven't evolved to like it. We like sweet stuff because it has lots of easily digestible carbohydrates.
 
@Xeo Honey is awesome! Having grown up with a beekeeper dad, I might have a little bias though.
 
Xeo
I just don't like the taste
 
@sbi that's sort of what I was meaning.
 
Als
2:11 PM
@sbi: Huh, I find that not so easy to believe.
 
@jalf I don't think that we would have required explicit evolution to start the process.
 
sbi
@Xaade I though the point I replied to said cooking was invented as a form of preservation. I provided an aregument against that.
 
(Um, some people don't prefer meat over vegetables, although the vegetables that best substitute for meat also require cooking, so the point does stand.)
 
@DeadMG Evolve isn't a big red button.
 
Tell that to Pokémon.
 
Xeo
2:12 PM
@sbi And our brain likes that. Very much so, IIRC it adapted to sugar as its prior source of energy
 
sbi
@jalf Yeah, and cooked meat is rarely ever easily available, so there's less pressure to develop a taste for it. Thus only one species did so. Not incidentally, this was also the one species bright enough to tame fire.
 
@DeadMG maybe not. So your'e saying that we evolved to like other things that were (a) accessible, and (b) better than other things that were accessible, and as a more or less random consequence, these changes also affected our tastebuds to like cooked meat?
that's possible
it just seems a bit of a coincidence
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter That's a personal preference, though. In general, we are omnivores, and when available, we prefer high-nutrient food.
 
@sbi but that assumes that we developed a taste for it after we became intelligent enough to light fires, which means that it had to happen really really fast
 
@jalf As was mentioned before, cats and dogs like cooked meat just fine.
 
2:13 PM
no, I think that we've just been controlling fire for this purpose longer than you think
 
Though that could be just because we fed them.
 
or that evolution can occur faster than you think
 
@sbi Yeah, I just wanted to put a word in for vegetarians/vegetarian societies.
 
@DeadMG but if we learned to cook before we learned to like cooked meat, then that still doesn't explain why we came to like it
 
Do wolves like cooked meat?
 
2:14 PM
@Xeo and we have yet to evolve to no longer feel the need to eat as much as we can get. We have very rapidly gone from sugar being a rare treat to an almost unlimited supply of it
 
What kind of species is dumb enough to say "if I do X, it makes the food taste worse, so I'm going to keep doing it until I like it"?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I imagine they would eat it. Cat's seem to not care if meet is cooked or not
 
@jalf Just because we have an explicit adaptation now doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been tastier than raw meat even for non-adapted humans.
 
Xeo
@jalf if X makes the food safer to eat / store.. think raw meat. :P
 
@thecoshman But we've been feeding cooked meat to cats for centuries.
 
sbi
2:15 PM
@Xeo Yeah, our brain takes incredible amounts of energy to work (and it's a miracle it pays for that investment at all), but other parts of the body need energy, too. It's believed that some of the early hunters might have covered 30-50kms per day. That does take a lot of energy.
 
@jalf that's exactly what evolution does as a theory when it has a hard time explaining things. "That's a bit of a coincidence." However it has to be true for people that can't see any form of invention in nature.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes fair point
 
@sbi It only pays to some.
 
sbi
@jalf No. It just assumes that we were intelligent enough to artificially reproduce naturally rare conditions which resulted in the high-nutrient food we had learned to like.
 
Xeo
@sbi Yeah, but our brain is a greedy bastard. It will cut off energy transport to other parts of the body if it thinks it doesn't get enough energy
 
2:16 PM
@DeadMG but then it doesn't answer my question of why it would have been tastier back then
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Dogs do. Zoological, they are still considered to be of the same species.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I've fed cooked cat to cats for a decade.
 
well, I would expect that, quite simply, if our noses/tastebuds evolve to detect the useful substances in potential foods, such as protein
 
@sbi but how did we learn to like it? Learning to like it implies that we initially didn't like it, and then some adaptation occurred
 
but I can't imaging it took much to persuade them. AFAIK raw meat contains bacteria (that humans are now bad at copping with) and is harder to digest. There is a African big cat that will protect a corpse for a while to let it semi rot to make it easier to diggest
 
2:16 PM
and since cooked food contains more accessible protein
then logically, it would be tastier to any general-purpose taster
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes No, it pays for most.
 
@jalf You feel better when you eat better. After less digestive effort you feel energetic. Try not cooking your food and you will quickly see.
 
@DeadMG that's possible, actually. When food is cooked, you tend to notice because of the smell and things. So you naturally learn that "at the end of this smell are nutrients", then it works
 
There is a "raw food movement" of crazy Californians who do refuse to eat cooked food. It mainly serves to educate them on the wonders of cooking.
 
2:18 PM
When did we master fire?
 
@Potatoswatter I feel just fine eating sushi. I could eat only sushi.
 
that'd even explain why you might learn to eat charred meat left over from forest fires and the like
you smelled it, and when you followed the smell, you found something edible, even if it wasn't very well cooked
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Wiki said first evidence of deliberately cooked food 2million years ago
 
@DeadMG it't not so much more accessible as easier to digest.
 
@thecoshman Those things are identical for humans.
 
2:19 PM
@DeadMG That's way before Neanderthals.
 
sbi
@jalf Over the course of millions of years, we learned to prefer a certain kind of high-nutrient food even though we had few opportunities to find it. I don't find that surprising. Consider that of those with Indy-European roots ~96% can digest milk even at an adult age, while it's about the opposite for people with other genes. And that's a meager couple thousand years it took to develop that.
 
@jalf So, clearly whatever taste evolution needed to happen was not that fast.
 
@Xaade You refer to sashimi. Sushi is the rice, which is definitely cooked. And surviving on sashimi would be delicious but economically impossible, even today, not to mention in ancient times.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter This isn't a Californian thing only.
 
@sbi I agree. There are certain examples even in human history of very rapid evolution.
 
2:20 PM
@Potatoswatter economically impossible?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course. TTBOMK, the first hominids had fire.
 
@sbi Well, from what I've heard, in any case most people who try it quit after a few months, albeit with a newfound perspective.
@Xaade You couldn't afford to do that, so it's not a good example. Most raw meat is not sashimi.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter I dunno. I only met one guy doing this about twenty years ago, and I only met him once.
 
@sbi well, milk is a relatively sustainable food source. so if a small group of people where able to take advantage of it, they would be able to do rather well for them selves
@sbi that was agreement btw, well meant to be :P
 
sbi
@thecoshman I know how evolution works. I just wanted to point out that it only took a few thousand years to adapt to that.
 
2:22 PM
@sbi I went to a raw food potluck in Boulder, CO. It was delicious but preparation is deceptively non-trivial.
 
@Potatoswatter sashimi is just slabs of raw meat. sushi is the category of different foods. This includes the rice paired with raw meat.
@Potatoswatter why couldn't I afford to do that.
 
@Xaade I think your point was specifically the raw meat, no?
 
There's plenty of cheap sushi no more costly than fast food.
 
@sbi I thought you might have an idea about it :P it's easy to see why that adaptation took of so well
 
@Xaade Because despite being raw the preparation is difficult and the meat itself is expensive.
@Xaade Not in countries I've been.
(USA, Thailand, Philippines, which all have their own fish. I don't think I even looked for sushi elsewhere, where it would likely be even more expensive.)
 
2:24 PM
@Potatoswatter No, my point was the preservation technique that resulted in sushi, is an alternative to raw meat that found a preference in people. The conclusion was that preservation techniques become taste preferences over time.
 
@Xaade I know that the rice it self is called sushi, and that the western world seems to just label it all sushi though AFAIK it is 'wrong' to do so
 
Hence our preference for salt, when salt really doesn't taste good IMO. It's called a flavor enhancer, but only because there's a preference. Why? Because it preserves food.
 
@Xaade There are advantages to cooking more immediate than preservation. Cooking is probably not very effective as preservation at all.
 
user406009
@Xaade Salt is also needed by the body for regular life too.
 
@Xaade No, salt tastes good because it is sometimes scarce as a nutritional need.
 
2:26 PM
@thecoshman No, that's not true. Plenty of east asians label the entire category of food as sushi.
 
any way, I like little nibble sized portions of rice combined with bits of fish and meat, often involving a bit of seaweed.
 
Preserved food doesn't inherently taste better.
 
Salt doesn't taste good.
 
Although some folks do attempt to live on canned meat, I think they're just crazy.
 
@Xaade dam those people who think they are smart telling me I'm wrong to call the whole lot sushi ¬_¬
 
2:27 PM
@thecoshman Shari is the term for the rice.
 
@thecoshman that kind of sushi is called nigiri
sashimi is just the raw fish
 
@RMartinhoFernandes to you may be. In Ireland, it is a very common base ingredient. seriously, the Irish love there salt
 
@thecoshman Those are people that believe they're "cultured" because they bothered venturing out to foreign food, and form all their knowledge from amongst themselves. These people rarely actually venture to real culture groups, and stick to tourist locations.
It's an arrogant group.
 
call it what you will, but I like food the slides along. I feel like a serious hunter in Sushi bars!
 
user406009
Everyone's arrogant on the internet.
 
user406009
2:28 PM
Fact of life.
 
where you from @Xaade
 
sbi
I have to go to a meeting.
afk
 
@Potatoswatter You've got that backwards. Tasty food inherently is preservable. We develop taste for foods that increase our survival.
 
cheap sushi in Japan can usually be found in Kaiten sushi shops where sushi goes around in small plates over a conveyor belt - they are cheaper because the fish is machine-cut rather than hand-cut
 
@thecoshman I'm from Texas. An ignorant red-neck southerner that somehow has more experience with real life in China, than cultured northerners.
 
2:31 PM
@Xaade Yeah, like fast food.
 
the good stuff can be had in front of a sushi chef if you say "omakase" where you let the chef produce whatever sushi is fresh that day
 
@Xaade Tasty food is less perishable? No, food which tastes good to us tends to taste better to other animals, fungi and bacteria. Ripe fruit, fresh meat.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Survival is a product of reproduction, not health.
 
@Xaade huh... that makes you the second Texan a 'know'. The other being a chap who lived in a trailer park and studied chemistry really hard so he could make drugs
 
Cheaper food supports more poor people.
 
2:32 PM
@thecoshman lol
 
@kfmfe04 The good stuff is knowing how to make it yourself.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes true story :P
 
@Xaade for some foods, but usually not the case for sushi - that stuff is really hard to cut correctly
but I agree with you, in general - because eating out, there is usually too much salt and oil used in cooking
 
@thecoshman Somehow, the fact that it's a good thing, is sad. Most people don't study, which increases the likely hood of a meth lab bomb that blows up a few blocks.
@kfmfe04 elegance doesn't make food taste better, it makes people more arrogant.
 
@Xaade now I never said it was meths, is it a common thing over there :P
 
2:35 PM
I can say from experience, that sushi from a small shop in Asia, is better than sushi from a 5 star restaurant.
 
@Xaade elegance has nothing to do with it - food preparation makes a difference
 
so who else has looked into 'cooking' meths?
 
good ingredients make a difference
 
@thecoshman You typically don't study to make cannabis. Meth is the one that kills 5 families by accident.
 
dam you guys; I really really want sushi now
@Xaade he could really want to help make pharmaceuticals
 
2:37 PM
@kfmfe04 Food's in the heart. Without heart, you can't make good food. With heart, you can make up for quality.
 
Hearts are not that tasty.
 
@thecoshman I went to this place a couple hours ago - had their 海鮮丼 wretch.cc/blog/jasminelady/14052640
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's offaly good :D
 
@thecoshman Producing pharmaceuticals requires more equipment than you can own, unless you focus on one drug. At which point, profit is in...
 
NT280 or about US$9.30 - a good deal
 
2:38 PM
@Xaade I never said he wanted to make them in his own house.
 
You're not going to convince me he was working on a legit drug. Even then, he's breaking the law.
You can't just roll out a prescription drug in your house.
@thecoshman Sorry, trailer park throws me off.
 
@kfmfe04 ¬_¬ as if I didn't want sushi bad enough already
 
He was pursuing a cure for cancer! How dare you indict him without evidence!
 
Usually if you mean legit. You says things, like studying to be a chemist to do lab work producing new treatments.
 
@Xaade so you just assumed (correctly in this case) that because he lives in a trailer park, he must be wanting to make meths :D
 
2:40 PM
hehehe - Breaking Bad
 
@thecoshman You specifically termed that phrase ambiguous enough to imply what I determined.
 
hmm... I wonder how cheaply I could get return flights to Japan for this weekend ¬_¬
 
That's like saying, this girl I know is studying dance to entertain men in downtown.
 
he he he
 
If you mean legit. You say, she's studying ballet or ballroom.
 
2:42 PM
@thecoshman ya - if you go to Japan, Hokkaido (Sapporo) is good this time of year for sushi (lots of good cold-water fish)
 
ok seriously guys, if you can find me some cheap, and I mean sub £250, return flights to japan for this weekend, I am going!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes - rofl - I like
 
@kfmfe04 Man, fishing fresh is the real deal. I like self-caught red fish.
Nothing tastes better than a fish you catch yourself.
 
@Xaade Any red fish will do?
 
2:44 PM
@Xaade fish some one caught and prepared specifically for you
@Potatoswatter that's just a red herring :D
 
@Xaade I like all kinds of fish (restaurant cooked and fresh caught) - I probably eat enough of the stuff to shorten my life (probably about 5-8+ times a week) with heavy metals
@RMartinhoFernandes looks yummy
 
@kfmfe04 just use a magnet when you poop.
 
@kfmfe04 meh, heavy metals ¬_¬
 
rofl
 
2:47 PM
@thecoshman nope.
 
@Xaade with love?
 
what's funky is, out here, in Asia, they eat the whole fish, including the head and eyes (not used to that growing up in the US)
 
@thecoshman meh ¬_¬
 
how is it in Europe?
 
No head or eyes.
 
2:48 PM
@kfmfe04 when I spent a while in Italy, the would eat the entire anchovie
 
My aunt likes to eat fish heads, but that's not common.
 
@thecoshman That may be a really good second place, but still.... no.
 
anchovies are easy - I would eat those whole
 
Yeah, my aunt doesn't like that at all.
 
@Xaade with lots of money?
 
2:49 PM
 
@thecoshman Money is a misconception. It doesn't take money to make something taste better. It just takes money to make rich people believe it tastes better.
 
Paper doesn't taste good.
 
@Xaade ¬_¬ with the right keep your life?
 
@thecoshman I fight for my rights. Give me my self-caught fish, and we'll see about you taking my life.
 
Good morning peeps.
 
2:52 PM
How do fish catch themselves?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes fish::fish() try { throw *this; } catch ( fish &self ) { … }
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Swimming into a net.
 
I was looking forward to lazy pizza tonight. Now I'm just going to be silently grumbling about it not being tasty sushi
 
Hm, it's been a while since I've had sushi.
 
@thecoshman Get some cheap grocery store sushi. Put it on the pizza. You now have an expensive sushizza.
 
2:57 PM
@Potatoswatter that idea is so bad I'm tempted to flag it as offensive ¬_¬
 
That would probably be hard to eat. Unless you crush the sushi on the pizza.
 
Be my guest. I don't think I've been flagged yet.
All flagging actually does is broaden the audience :P
 
@Potatoswatter I'm not that much of a dick :P
 
No, don't flag it. Someone's gonna think that "pizza" is an euphemism for "sex" and he'll get banned.
 
I would probably remove the rice from the sushi, so it wouldn't actually be sushi any more.
 
2:58 PM
@Potatoswatter well, the slices of tasty raw fish are still part of the sushi genre are they not
 
Cooked salmon pizza with white sauce can be pretty tasty.
 
@Potatoswatter - that's called sashimi - just slices of fish
what most people think of as "sushi" is specifically "nigiri shushi" - a slice of fish on top of vinegar rice
 
any way, I people to go annoy IRL
 

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