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10:00 PM
@sbi: no, no auto-approve. but we do make mistakes. i once asked Dietmar Kuehl (after a few beers) how one of my more unfortunate messages could have slipped through, and he just replied that when two experts discuss something he didn't scrutinize every word. otherwise he'd saved me then. i also have goofed up.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach See, I knew you wouldn't admit it!
 
Just to make this discussion really meta: do you discuss this chat system on c.l.c++.m?
 
if you mean clc++m, nope
 
(yes, I did – damn my typos)
 
10:02 PM
why would we discuss about this chat on c.l.c++.m ?
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Why do you discuss the list here? :D
 
alf discussed about SO in general on c.l.c++ tho
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph It would probably be off-topic there.
<curses_at_mouse>
 
Ok, note to self: stop making obscure unfunny jokes, nobody gets them.
 
they are totally obscure and unfunny
how could you even suggest that I might get it
I'm insulted
 
sbi
10:05 PM
@DeadMG How can you know whether they are funny or not if you don't even get them?
 
@DeadMG That’s what I said, yes ;)
 
:250610 Time machine!
 
@sbi: That was the point :P
 
sbi
@DeadMG Ha, I got it!
I will celebrate this by going to the fridge and getting a beer.
 
@sbi: I'm glad that you can find a solution if led to it by the nose by a young whippersnapper like myself :P
 
10:05 PM
Hello, @FredOverflow from the past. We are the Morlock.
 
@KonradRudolph Hm, it seems I need to edit it... I only see the number. Or were you notified?
 
@FredOverflow Edit or refresh …
(nope, refresh not working)
(and I wasn’t notified)
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Not even the permalink seems to work.
 
@KonradRudolph Damnit, too late for edit :)
@FredOverflow Another approach at time travel.
 
sbi
@sbi Alles im grünen Bereich. Alles. :)
Now nobody wants to type, because they all want to be caught by the time traveling reference...
 
10:09 PM
Isn't const auto& just the coolest thing ever?
 
no
it has const in it
auto&& is way better
 
@sbi It only works when I edit afterwards, but that feels like cheating :-(
 
I prefer me an atomic<int volatile const>
 
@DeadMG But auto const& is great for readonly access in the new for loop!
 
10:11 PM
meh @ readonly
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Mhmm. That recursion test seemed to only work through editing, too, but it worked for me right away. Did I mention that the software might need to get the hang of this first? :)
 
they are in flux about range-based for loop. discovered that ADL isn't quite the right way to go about it
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Ha, complaint #2 is about me, but @Alf never fixed that!
@JohannesSchaublitb "they"
 
@sbi folks on committee
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Context? Also, isn’t ADL basically the best thing since sliced bread?
 
10:15 PM
no
there are some issues with it
 
@Konrad it introduces just too many ambiguities
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb You come in here with something totally unrelated to what we're discussing, and don't even explain where you're heading at. Tut tut.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb so what’s an alternative?
 
@KonradRudolph explicit trait
 
sbi
10:16 PM
@DeadMG You must be British.
 
like, the for loop calls range_traits<T>::begin/end
 
@JohannesSchaublitb What do you mean "flux"? Is is possible that range-based for will not make it into the final standard??
 
why yes
I am
how did you know that?
 
@FredOverflow it sure will, but it won't work with ADL by high chance
 
@JohannesSchaublitb True, I’ve played with that idea myself. But isn’t that still strictly speaking a kind of ADL?
 
10:17 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb What would be an ADL-example that "does not work"?
 
sbi
Jan 12 at 9:08, by sbi
@ChrisBecke You must be British. Only a Brit could bring out an understatement looking so bloody serious.
 
oh
lol
 
@KonradRudolph it has not the weird ambiguities that ADL has.
vector< boost::shared_ptr<int> > x;
for(auto & i : x) ...; // both boost::begin and std::begin will be viable!
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Yes, that’s the nice thing about it. But still …
Oh hi, @ChristopherOezbek
 
hi there
 
10:19 PM
it finds boost::begin because of boost::shared_ptr (ADL), and std::begin because of std::vector
 
@Johannes: THat doesn't make sense to me
begin and end are only going to be called with the vector
wtf is the contained type doing? it's got nothing to do with it
 
template arguments contribute to the set of associated namespaces with ADL
 
wow
ADL sucks
why do we even have it?
 
sbi
@DeadMG So you can overload operators in namespaces?
 
10:23 PM
@sbi And why do we have operator overloading? ;-)
 
@Dead not exactly sure what the killer purpose of considering template arguments too for ADL is. maybe they just thought it's natural that when T* considers T, then Y<T> considers T too
 
see, I think that having operators as free functions is just silly
 
sbi
@FredOverflow To get code that's easier to read and understand. Oh wait...
 
or rather
having syntax in which some operators cannot be members is silly
 
sbi
@DeadMG And how you you define an increment operator for enum month [ Jan, Feb...}?
 
10:25 PM
C++0x has enum classes like Java, from memory
 
@sbi Have proper enums that allow defining methods and data members, of course
 
@DeadMG operator<< can be a member, but do you really want to change a library class template? ;)
 
i can imagine having something like enum class X { A, B; void f() { .. } }; and then you could do X x; x.f(); X would be a normal class whose only supported data members have the type of itself and where the type is implied. (above is equivalent to "enum class X { X A, B; void f() { .. } };") and having member functions. backward compatible!
 
Then again, that whole "operator<< for output" business is a bit strange...
 
(and where all data members are static)
anyone wants to draft a proposal on that?
lol
 
10:29 PM
@FredO: The strangest thing about it is that the signature doesn't even make sense
it should be operator<<=
non-const, returning a reference to self?
 
@FredOverflow Other languages allow this very elegantly via mix-ins (“monkey patching”)
 
enums are different from ordinary classes because (Liskov) substitution goes backwards, sort of. derived extended enum would be supertype. it's a bit thorny wrt. language design
 
@Johannes: Hey, we could overload operator>>= and do some Monads in C++!
2
 
hm the missing semicolon for when one doesn't have members would be a problem though. but that's just syntax :)
@FredOverflow ohh!
 
(Can we overload operator>>= in C++?)
 
10:32 PM
@AlfPSteinbach why is that?
 
enum Arbeitstag { Montag, Dienstag, Mittwoch, Donnerstag, Freitag };
enum Wochentag : Arbeitstag { Samstag, Sonntag };
 
@johannes: when we restrict to only designated named values (not the case for a C++ enum, but discussing enums as classes) then any value of BaseEnum is a valid DerivedEnum value. a valid DerivedEnum value is not necessarily a valid BaseEnum value. This opposite of ordinary "a Derived is-a Base" (LSP).
 
Wochentag is a subtype of Arbeitstag, yet Samstag is not an Arbeitstag.
2
 
@FredOverflow ohh
 
@FredOverflow Classic example of LSP! Beautiful. (Have a star) Much better than the typical example of rectangle-vs-square, IMHO!
 
10:36 PM
@AlfPSteinbach hmm. i think iwill forbid deriving enums then. unions are classes too and they forbid deriving too :)
good point tho. i totally missed!
 
@JohannesSchaublitb NO! It must be made Undefined Behavior! That's the C++ way(TM).
2
 

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