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user1804599
3:00 PM
in D templates can take floats, and T!NaN and T!NaN are the same type.
 
that's the behaviour I would expect from this language
 
mmmm
 
as in, we want it to be different, but not that much different
 
user1804599
Vlinder will lack NaN.
 
3:02 PM
are these frogs on your pizza
 
Yes
They call it 'ze pizza'
 
NaN sounds like a NULL value designed for floating point numbers
What is it useful for?
 
It was a good idea at the time
 
Missing values
 
user1804599
For making JavaScript programmers brag about how terrible their language is.
 
3:03 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It is
 
user1804599
Use option<float> for potentially missing values, or a Boolean and a float.
 
Or not
 
Or throw an exception if some operation would yield no floating point value
 
user1804599
Just like you'd do with any other type.
 
@elyse lol blow
 
3:04 PM
Exceptions are not a direct replacement
 
I agree
 
@milleniumbug they're supposed to be jalapenos but I think they're regular hot peppers that you can find here
I mean I don't feel anything special
 
user1804599
Exceptions are for operations.
 
s/ special//
That's why I said "if some operation"
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Keep it in mind that there's not only one NaN value, there are about 2^24 of them (for float). So you can encode location of the error inside the NaN payload.
 
3:06 PM
There are signalling NaNs
 
Nobody does that now for some reason
 
Exceptions still don't fit for missing values
There's not really any support for constructing NaNs
 
What's an example of a missing value? Why can't you use optional<float>?
 
@CatPlusPlus Except when they are
 
@milleniumbug Are you telling me that out of 32 bits for floats, 24 are "wasted" for NaN? I don't remember that from my classes
 
3:07 PM
That's not how that works, no
 
Not bits, no
Only values
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because you want packed format for your dataset and/or hardware processing and/or your language doesn't have optional and/or ...
 
@milleniumbug for 2^24 values you need at least 24 bits
 
@milleniumbug 2^24 values need at least 24 bits, no?
 
Really it's not that big of a deal
 
3:08 PM
Never said it is
 
That's not 2^32 / 2^24 non-NaN values. That's 2^32 - 2^24 non-NaN values
 
@EvgeniyMoiseenko or, as one would typically say it "entropy, bitches."
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Any float with representation x111 1111 1xxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx (where x is 0 or 1) is NaN
 
@Mysticial lol, JS chat does that all the time :D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I keep thinking your picture is of Count Dracula from Sesame Street, but it's just someone on someone else's back in the wintertime or something.
 
user1804599
3:11 PM
@milleniumbug so many values wasted :(
 
Fraction can't be 0, because that's infinity
 
@ThePhD that's great to know.
@CatPlusPlus what?
 
@milleniumbug right
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum 1/0
 
user1804599
@ThePhD lol nice
 
3:12 PM
@ThePhD that's no defined, it's certainly not infinity.
 
Wait, so 1.0/0.0 yields infinity with floats?
 
For floats, it's considered infinity?
 
Floats have Inf representation too
 
user1804599
1/0 is UB because integer division by 0 is UB.
 
Hmmm, doesn't this include infinities though
 
3:12 PM
No, I mean like
 
Well, the standard has a notion of +0 and -0
 
In the float
 
x111 1111 1000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 is +/-inf
 
That seems even more dumb (to yield infinity on 1.0f/0.0f)
 
yep, not all of x111 1111 1xxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx are NaNs. x111 1111 1000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 are infinities
so that's 2^24-2 NaNs in float
 
3:16 PM
What operations currently yield NaN?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ That's conflating normal calculations with calculating limits.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ 0/0 for example
 
Since normal calculations are undefined, you can extend the float arithmetic to calculate limits.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I see
 
In computing, NaN, standing for not a number, is a numeric data type value representing an undefined or unrepresentable value, especially in floating-point calculations. Systematic use of NaNs was introduced by the IEEE 754 floating-point standard in 1985, along with the representation of other non-finite quantities like infinities. Two separate kinds of NaNs are provided, termed quiet NaNs and signaling NaNs. Quiet NaNs are used to propagate errors resulting from invalid operations or values, whereas signaling NaNs can support advanced features such as mixing numerical and symbolic computation...
 
3:17 PM
@milleniumbug that's generally true to real numbers.
 
@milleniumbug ikr
 
is it possible to have RAM that grows from a permanent core?
 
meh it was mediocre
I don't even know why I still order from pizza hut
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ also, NaN is sticky, operations involving NaN all result in NaN.
 
Yeah, I would expect that
 
3:18 PM
NaNbomb.
 
In addition, some languages produce NaN for terrible reasons, like JavaScript which NaNs when it can't parse stuff.
 
Also inf / inf probably yields NaN
 
Yes, it does.
 
16 mins ago, by milleniumbug
It was a good idea at the time
 
3:19 PM
I never remember, is 0 * inf mathematically defined? (I bet not)
 
No, it's not.
There is a way to define it, but it's not how we typically define numbers.
 
But 0 * 0 is, right?
 
maybe replicating neurons, or something, although maybe not being dedicated for RAM.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes, that's just 0.
 
I think the only inf operations defined are
C + inf
inf + inf
inf - inf isn't
 
3:20 PM
although reliability would be a problem.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ lol
 
In typical college definition, you can't even write Infinity as a part of a calculation.
 
-inf + c is still -inf
 
Infinity = Infinity for example is not defined.
 
or so I remember from high school
 
3:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus Hey!
 
Did you know that
 
You'd talk about limits, for example you can't write Infinity + 5, but you can say x + 5 as x approaches infinity.
 
0 * 1
is 0
 
Fuck you
 
0 * anything is 0
 
3:21 PM
limits!
 
Infinity is not (again, by regular definition) a number mathematically.
 
Except 0 * inf apparently
 
The worst undefined symbol is 1^infinity
I can't explain it
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ what does * Infinity even mean?
How would you even define that in actual math?
 
Also the only one with a different operand than 0 or infinity
 
3:22 PM
numbers don't exist anyway.
so infinity makes sense
 
0 is a number, Infinity is not a number by regular definition.
 
What's the regular definition of a number?
 
Well, let's do natural numbers first, let's define natural numbers as such: 0 is a number, then for each number, if you add 1 to it you get a number.
 
"Not infinity"
 
So 4 is a number since it's 0(+1)(+1)(+1)(+1)
 
3:24 PM
Yes, I know about number sets
You can skip that
 
Well, that's how you define numbers.
 
11
Q: 1 to the power of infinity, why is it indeterminate?

Bujanca MihaiI've been taught that $1^\infty$ is undetermined case. Why is it so? Isn't $1*1*1...=1$ whatever times you would multiply it? So if you take a limit, say $\lim_{n\to\infty} 1^n$, doesn't it converge to 1? So why would the limit not exist?

 
Infinity, does not meet this definition, you can't multiply and add stuff and suddenly get infinity.
You have to introduce a new operation called "limit" in order to get it.
 
afternoon all
 
Afternoon
 
3:26 PM
heya @Benjamin did your Python in 6 hours or something work out the other day?
 
@JonClements morning
 
@JonClements yes, it actually did :) We gave them really cool projects. They're not anywhere near Python experts now but they have a basic understanding of the language.
Nothing fancy, but enough to teach stuff using it like networking (which they do know)
 
Excellent - what sort of thing did you go for in the end?
 
Well, we gave them basic image processing tasks like converting an image to greyscale, we gave some of them client/server tasks and the ones that wanted to go to sleep got things that look simple but were pretty challenging to beginners
 
Why taking logarithm of 1^inf = 1 would yield 0 * inf = 0?
2
A: 1 to the power of infinity, why is it indeterminate?

Boris NovikovThere are many reasons. For example, let $1^\infty=1$. Taking logarithm, you have $\infty\cdot 0=0$. Similarly for other operations you will obtain some absurd.

 
3:33 PM
You can't just place infinity in an equation and expect things to work
 
So, outside of limits, where can "infinity" be used for?
 
jeffrey reminds me of a classmate back in high school when the prof asked him what he thinks infinity is
"a number that just doesn't end!"
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ log(a^b) = log(a)*b?
 
I also have an issue with 0.999... being 1, or with periodic rationals in general
 
And x=y => log(x) = log(y)
 
3:34 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ absolutely nothing, you'd always use "x" and talk about "as x approaches infinity" which has a formal meaning if a limit exists.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ well, the thing about 0.999... and 1 is pretty simple. If two numbers are differently, then clearly there must be a third number between them, right?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah yeah, I know how to show that to be true.
I simply said I can't stomach it.
I know it makes sense
1/3 * 3 = 0.3333... * 3 = 0.9999...
1/3 * 3 = 1
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see
@R.MartinhoFernandes log base? 2?
 
Doesn't matter
 
Doesn't matter as long as the base is the same for all usages
 
Makes sense
I keep forgetting this stuff
How do you remember this
 
3:39 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ think about the "put a number between them" thing. Also - there are many representations for the same number, two shouldn't be hard to stomach :) For example 1/2 and 2/4 and 4/8 are all the same number
 
@Xeo solved the fucker
 
Xeo
gratz
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh I'm fine with that.
 
Xeo
I know one ghostcube that has the linepattern drawn differently than the actual parts are cut
 
I'm still not fine with 0.999.... = 1 though. Can't explain it.
 
3:41 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ 1/3 * 3 = 3/3 = 1/1 = 1
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ That is false
 
how exactly is 0.999... equal to 1?
 
5 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
1/3 * 3 = 0.3333... * 3 = 0.9999...
 
By virtue of being indistinguishable
 
I'm assuming you mean 0.(9)
 
3:42 PM
We show two numbers are different by showing a third number between them.
 
5 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
1/3 * 3 = 1
 
In this case, you can't.
 
ah right you can't show that there's something between 0.(9) and 1
 
I can imagine the number between them.
 
I can't
 
3:42 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ what is it?
 
It's 0.0000...1
 
That's not a real number.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ that number is smaller than any positive number right?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ if you could tell me where that 1 is you'd get a nobel
 
There's no correct representation of it that I know of
 
3:43 PM
That is, there is no positive number bigger than it
 
Well, it is a real number. It's zero.
 
But, for a positive number x, we can always take x / 2 to be smaller then it - right?
 
But what you are looking for is not a real number.
 
So 0.00000... 1 must not be a positive number, it's certainly not a negative one - so it must be zero.
 
It's lim (x -> inf) of (0.[x zeroes]1)
 
3:44 PM
4 lectures and you're good to go for life: youtube.com/watch?v=sqEyWLGvvdw
 
That's zero
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ which is 0 :D
 
So / 2 that would be: lim (x -> inf) of (0.[x zeroes + 1]5)
 
That's formally 1 / 10 ^ n as n approaches infinity, that's 0
 
btw a number of the form X.(Y)C doesn't make sense
 
3:45 PM
That's still 0
 
I'm using lim incorrectly
 
You're using it fine, but both those limits are equal
 
I'm trying to express that there are n number of zeroes
 
It is half of it, and both are zero, zero is half of zero
 
And n is infinity
 
3:46 PM
n approaches infinity
 
no it approaches infinity
 
Yes. And when there is an infinite number of zero digits, the number is zero.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ 0.(9) = 0.(9) * 9 / 9 = (10 * 0.(9) - 0.(9)) / 9 = (9.(9) - 0.(9)) / 9 = 9 / 9 = 1
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ can you imagine your number and 0.(9) racing along a line forever
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But right after that n, there's always another 1 there
 
3:46 PM
and not one of them ever stopping for the other to be bigger?
since they're both racing infinitely
 
@AlexM. Yes, exactly
 
The limit is still zero.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ right, but we're talking about the limit, the limit is when there are "no other 1s there"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know
 
so what's the matter in not being able to visualize why you can't show that there's something between 0.(9) and 1
 
3:47 PM
Your number is not real.
 
No, forget the limit, take what Alex said
There's no way that I know of to mathematically express it. But I can imagine it.
 
Right, if you take your number and 1 and race them forever no matter how much you go there will always be a difference between it and 1
No matter how big you take the number of zeros, there is always a bigger number of 0s
 
That's why the 1/3 * 3 thingy is what you should use against me in this argument
 
But, this is exactly what limits do, limits are "what happens it we keep going on and on and on to infinity".
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I'm having deja vu feelings from the last time you had a jeffrey moment
I think it was about cache localities
 
3:49 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ x in J such that x > 0.(9) and x < 1.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no, because that's using incorrect math and does not give you any intuition, it's using the conclusion to prove what we're trying to show, what's there to say there is no number between 1/3 and 0.3333....
 
@AlexM. a what
 
There, I expressed it.
 
user1804599
this motherfucker github.com/reduceleft
 
you're essentially like "I know and I understand this but I'll just draw everyone into a discussion without aim"
 
3:49 PM
And then you are going to claim that it's zero.
But that's not what I imagine it
 
No, it's not.
 
I got 80 gh stars today. That's fun.
 
Oh, wait, it doesn't exist, is what you are going to say
 
Note how I carefully put it in a different set than the reals.
 
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why?
 
3:50 PM
It doesn't exist as much as √-1 doesn't.
 
@AlexM. Yeah, I do that sometimes, not now though.
 
I'm just saying that if you want to show that 0.(9) = 1, you should use the 1/3 argument.
 
You just make new number sets.
 
Not the "there should be a difference between the two numbers" argument.
To convince me at least.
 
3:51 PM
The difference here is that √-1 has more practical use.
 
@AlexM. clearly, it is better to discuss booze and tits then have actual discussion about philosophy and math. We apologize.
 
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum cool
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
NEED MOAR JPEG
 
where did you get the booze and tits from
 
3:52 PM
@elyse haha. That's Hebrew by the way in case that wasn't obvious. We're teaching unpriviledged kids programming.
 
From the fridge, duh
 
I'm mostly interested in how tits are formed
 
user406009
.99999.... = 1, who could possible disagree?
 
I'm teaching C++ next year, which will likely make the kids even less priviledged.
 
user406009
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why C++?
 
3:53 PM
1/3 can be perfectly represented only by 1/3 only
 
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum Does the four-colour symbol also resemble a Hebrew symbol or is it just there as a separator?
 
@Lalaland it's after they're learned C. The program has a systems programming bias I admit. Also, I did not get to make that choice.
@elyse yes, it represents the letter ש
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Especially if you keep spelling privileged wrong
 
user1804599
Amazing.
 
user406009
@BenjaminGruenbaum Hmm, that just seems like a poor choice for introductory programming.
 
3:56 PM
@copy I don't intend to apologize for my friends messing up my autocorrect :/
@Lalaland why would the language matter?
 
@Borgleader IT'S HERE!
 
user406009
C++ has a lot of garbage. It's a relatively complicated language.
 
I don't think it's that complicated for day to day use.
 
THE TYRANNY IS OVER: 1920 x 1080 GLORIOUS RESOLUTION ON A THICK, JUICY MONITOR.
NYAAAAHAAAHAHAAAAAAA
NOW I CAN ... do homework in 1080p. :l
 
user406009
@ThePhD You got that one you were looking at before?
 
user406009
3:58 PM
The next model of my monitor?
 

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