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9:00 AM
After i have developed my first C++ program ,I felt the size of the file is large though there is nothing special in my code later i came to know about -strip which drastically reduced the size, here if we created any bigger programs that planned to install in different machine then using strip have any effect because i read when we using strip some of the information that generated during compilation time will be removed?
 
@orlp Oh, you're right. It should be « I can't wait » :o
 
hmmmm strip
 
@Morwenn btw, why do you use « » for quotes?
 
@orlp Because I find them prettier.
 
18
Q: What is "strip" (GCC application) used for?

Carlos Aguilerawhat is this little application for? When using it without any options reduces the size of the executables, but how/what it does?

 
9:01 AM
@Morwenn ».«
 
Also, it annoys thecoshman, which is another reason I like to use them.
 
@VermillionAzure
Got it
 
@RichardGeorge most of these things are searchable
in other news
WOW wtf why is concurrency just coming up now and Mr. Concurrency Lamport only getting his ACM award now
It's been almost 40 years already?
 
Going to bed good:) need some sleep:(
 
9:09 AM
@StackedCrooked when did Luffy get fire powah
 
@StackedCrooked i see
 
@VermillionAzure That's Sabo, the other guy.
 
luffy has the fire hawk in anime...
has had it for quite some time also
 
I'm not going to get into One Piece because is too long
 
Oh wait.
Fire hawk?
Don't remember seeing it.
 
9:11 AM
what? he's used it in combo with law to hit Doffy
and then again to hit nise-doffy
it's a fiery punch
 
Was this last episode?
Maybe I forgot to watch it.
 
the first time he hit Doffy was few weeks back
law did the switch and luffy hit law
it was with the firehawk attack
 
I have no memory of that.
My memory sucks.
I should get a new one.
 
and in last episode he used it on the clone of doffy i think
maybe it was 2 episodes back, but I think it was the latest one
it's like punch, but with fire :P
(don't expect luffy to do anything other than a punch :))
 
@VermillionAzure A good anime can never be too long :)
 
9:13 AM
anime
 
@StackedCrooked You mean like Naruto XD
 
I haven't watched Naruto yet.
 
it must suck massive cocks
 
@ScarletAmaranth vivid images come to mind
 
Naruto's not bad. Just skip the filler.
 
9:15 AM
(it's like the goto shonen of europe from what I understand)
 
The best arc, though, is probably Zabuza
@ScarletAmaranth are you graduate student btw?
 
@VermillionAzure yes, I'm getting my masters in computer science the next May (maybe :P) - here in Slovakia it's basically an engineering title, you get "Ing." affixed to your name
 
@thecoshman What xD
@VermillionAzure That's exactly how I ended up skipping Naruto.
But I have to agree, the Zabuza arc was good and the manga hasn't done better since. Too bad it was in the very first volumes.
 
@Morwenn meh.
 
9:17 AM
@Morwenn seems to sum you up rather well :D
 
I think... the Pain arc was good.
 
@thecoshman I'm a big sloth.
 
Sasori took forever in the anime (OMG I'M GONNA SUMMON MORE PUPPETS TO FIGHT WITH)
Itachi is always fun
 
Hitachi?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Do you even know the premise of the story?
 
9:19 AM
@Morwenn more the "ergh fuck it" attitude to food, but yes
 
@VermillionAzure ye I think some guy leaves the main city and then the entire anime is about people from said city chasing after him
 
@ScarletAmaranth no
It's about Naruto and ninjas.
kek XD
 
(facepalm)
 
But the deal is that Naruto has a demon-monster that attacked the village sealed in him and so everyone hates him
but he wants to be the leader of his ninja village-nation
 
so there is no guy who's left the village and everyone is trying to find him?
or convince him to get back or some such?
 
9:21 AM
Hey, there's an arc where they chase Sasuke though.
 
@ScarletAmaranth That's the second part of the anime/manga
 
so he leaves at a later date :D?
he's like fuck this city, I am leaving
 
@ScarletAmaranth It ends after Sasuke leaves and... a few other things happen.
 
Butler did it
 
@ScarletAmaranth No, he leaves because he's power-honeypotted by a creep names Orochimaru who's really creepy
 
9:22 AM
Gardener did it
o-rochi maru :D? that's hilarious
 
And then Sasuke wants to kill his brother because his brother killed his entire family and clan they're the last ones.
 
it's like "A big snake guy"
 
So Sasuke's pretty emo for a good reason.
 
ok ok this is clearly far beyond my comprehension
basically it might not suck is what you're saying
I will just go with not watching
 
@ScarletAmaranth Oh, it doesn't suck.
It sucks HARD as you get into later arcs, though.
 
9:23 AM
yeah sucking is hard from certain arcs
I mean... nvm
 
By the end, we get a random villain who basically is anti-climactic because the manga just invents her in the last two-three arcs. Then random fight again once they defeat her and suddenly everyone is happy.
TBH I think the best shonen anime I've seen is Fullmetal Alchemist or Hikaru no Go
 
@VermillionAzure Sure. Shoot.
 
Kill la Kill and Attack on Titan have to be my favourite ones.
 
> I used to hate programmers
> But then I found the C++ lounge and realize it really is just my choice of language
:D
 
:ironicat:
 
9:27 AM
@Morwenn Waiting for sequel on Attack on Titan.
 
@fredoverflow So uh
The idea was to have some sort of number such that it can quantify the amount of indeterminate behavior of a function possible.
 
Not again
 
And then, we use this as a metric in order to pinpoint the cause of indeterminate behavior as well as compare similar or equivalent designs or implementations.
 
I have no idea what you're talking about...
 
9:30 AM
@fredoverflow Say we have a function F(bool a) -> bool
@fredoverflow the function makes a reference to a global or externally-scoped variable boolean b
such that its result is a && b
 
You want to have a metric for referential transparency?
 
@fredoverflow Pretty much, yes.
 
The metric is "yes" and "no"
 
Just use Haskell and Monads.
Or D and pure.
 
There are no degrees of being referentially transparent, you either are or not
 
9:33 AM
@fredoverflow This is supposed to be generalize to all languages and possibly even make language designs comparable
 
Also again it says nothing about the design
 
@CatPlusPlus But it does
 
@VermillionAzure Why? Are you looking for a PhD topic?
 
@fredoverflow Possibly master's
 
@VermillionAzure No, it doesn't
 
9:33 AM
@VermillionAzure It never will.
 
Say we have a function f(bool a) -> bool { return a && b; }
 
you just want a magic number that solves your problems
 
Given just f(true), can we really know what its value is?
 
which it won't
 
So you give it 50% referential transparency or what? :)
 
9:34 AM
@fredoverflow Yes, I do.
 
That's nonsense
 
And then what?
 
But the point is that once we begin finding ways to limit the input domain, it may be possible to get to the point that our domain represents the set of inputs that result in 100% indeterminate behavior
 
Although our function is defined as f(a), it's clear it also depends on b
So we can write it as f(a [b]) to distinguish between explicit and implicit inputs
 
9:36 AM
I agree that once you've solved the halting problem, everything else is easyh
 
How theoretical/practical is a Master's thesis supposed to be?
 
@fredoverflow I have no freaking idea.
I'm just trying to formulate a background and interest by proposing my own independent ideas and then discovering which ones have already done it because nothing is new under the sun
@fredoverflow But the core idea is that we should have some sort of way to isolate indeterminate behavior in a system by isolating scope and ensuring everything within a scope is indeterminate--a pretty natural thing to do to ensure we have bug-free code already
 
Yes you find bugs by finding bugs
Good job
 
top kek
 
Given a set of statements that can reason about our types and input code, we should be able to narrow down the input domain such that we can always test for less cases by literally proving that they can NEVER make the program have indeterminate behavior.
 
9:41 AM
What exactly is "indeterminate behaviour", anyway?
 
Halting problem, impossible
 
yeah, that only requires the programmer to manually annotate the source code to tell you what's indeterminate and what's not.
 
I ain't doin' that.
 
@Puppy Or having some sort of database to document it, which can be plausible for larger projects.
 
nope.
you would need the aforementioned for all of your dependencies and libraries as well.
even the closed-source ones.
 
9:42 AM
Still can't be done automatically, where you store annotations doesn't really matter
 
@fredoverflow Indeterminate behavior is denoted as the superposition of all possible values a value out of scope may take, the value I.
 
Stop using fancy words
4
They don't mean what you want them to mean
 
What the guy upstairs said.
 
@fredoverflow It's also defined as the situation in which given inputs will cause undefined behavior, regardless of an output value or not.
 
sup
@VermillionAzure bullshit again
 
9:44 AM
@fredoverflow tl;dr: I = we can't explicitly know from our scope (referential transparency) or undefined behavior situations
 
being determinate doesn't mean it's bug-free
 
@BartekBanachewicz How so?
 
Look at Bartek, he's a living, determinate bug.
 
Referential transparency has no relation to UB
hth
 
@VermillionAzure if you don't know how so that means you stop drop and roll and go back to your book
 
9:45 AM
getCircleCircumference(r) { return r; }.
totally deterministic but still totally incorrect.
 
@CatPlusPlus But both result in being unable to correctly reason about the resulting function
@BartekBanachewicz I guess, but that's a... problem of intent?
 
3 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Stop using fancy words
 
people reason about non-referentially-transparent functions all the time.
 
@VermillionAzure What
 
@Puppy Example?
 
9:46 AM
printf?
 
@VermillionAzure which is a real problem in programming, in contrast to the made up problems your methodology fails to solve
 
You just can't reason about non-ref-transparent things on their own
You need to consider larger parts of the system
 
every I/O, date, timing function etc?
std::vector::resize?
 
Basically, your theory has so many holes, it's swiss cheese. Except delicious.
 
@ElimGarak It's not a theory. It's just an idea; that's why I'm here and not publishing it on a blog or something
 
9:47 AM
Ah, blogs are now relevant publications?
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's true, but I'm just simply trying to create a metric by which to objectively compare code
 
More relevant than some of ~~actual~~ publications
:v
 
Are we really talking about this again?
 
@ElimGarak It's enough to easily be caught by an potential employer
 
@VermillionAzure Which you can do only by reducing the meaning of that metric to nothing
 
9:48 AM
@VermillionAzure "simply"? There's no simplicity here, only your unbased assumptions
 
There's no fucking silver bullet and there's no single metric to objectively compare anything
 
@VermillionAzure and nagging us with it instead? I've told you to stop doing that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Where should I go? I can't find a good place to get criticism, even on the CS SE
 
Quality of design and implementation doesn't exist in the vacuum
 
9:49 AM
write a post and let others speak
 
@VermillionAzure Computer Science.SE
 
@Morwenn I have the post there already, and it has almost no interest or replies
 
Design goals and project requirements are not irrelevant
 
@VermillionAzure people expect a certain level of competence you don't currently possess
 
And those can't be included in your magic code metric
 
9:50 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Then where should I start? What am I missing?
 
you're trying to teach and invent things you don't even understand
 
Your premise is bad, there's no point going forward with it
 
@VermillionAzure Which is principally because there's nothing interesting or useful about this proposal.
 
@VermillionAzure I'd learn programming first
 
@BartekBanachewicz And probably category and set theory, which I want to work on as well if I want to do this
 
9:50 AM
@VermillionAzure don't learn everything at once. Learn programming first.
This shouldn't take you more than 5 years
 
All code you write now will be hated by future you, if you're any good at what you do.
 
Start by defining what you really want to compare (and no, not "indeterminate" whatever)
What's the problem you're trying to solve
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but what about it? I have a programming job with bioinformatics and I know I'm still not a "programmer."
@CatPlusPlus I just want to create a metric such that we can use it to objectively compare code.
 
@VermillionAzure start doing actual practical programming
 
If it's the problem of finding UB in code then that's static analysis and has nothing to do with any metrics
 
9:52 AM
you... you actually have a programming job?
that's scary
 
@VermillionAzure to objectively compare an indeterminate property
 
@VermillionAzure What metric, and what for
 
for god's sake
 
@Puppy I work at the university cancer center programming R
 
ahaha university
that's not a job
 
9:52 AM
Said a game developer
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's the research institution; my PhD employer works with gene-count data and does analysis on it
 
I'm not a game dev anymore, asshat
 
I'm a highly qualified Application Performance Engineer
(tm)
 
An apphat
 
9:53 AM
hehe
 
APE for short.
 
I'm doing some app/framework/workflow design with R
 
You still haven't stated your problem
 
@VermillionAzure then dunno, learn a real language and do a few dozen projects with it
 
9:53 AM
"Comparing code" is means, not a goal
 
come back when you do
 
@CatPlusPlus The assumption I make is that deterministic behavior is better than indeterministic behavior
 
False
 
STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS YOU HAVE NO IDEA
lol
it's hilarious
it's like, there's just no patience for that repeated offence
 
Indeterministic behaviour is unavoidable in lots of systems
 
9:54 AM
Assumptions are bad, m'kay?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I thought the strength of functional programming is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
Anything multithreaded
Any distributed system
 
@VermillionAzure yes I know you think a lot of things before you actually manage to get some relevant knowledge and that's what's supposed to change
 
That's not a problem to solve, that's just life
State a problem
 
@VermillionAzure You certainly don't have to be programming functionally to use referential transparency.
 
9:55 AM
@CatPlusPlus That's true, but the model was to try and evaluate the degree of in-determinism, and pinpoint domains where it does happen
 
@VermillionAzure how many functional referentially-transparent programs have you written for long enough to observe the effects in practice?
 
State an actual goal
@VermillionAzure What for
 
@CatPlusPlus cat stop for gods sake
you know well enough the only answer he's able to produce at this point is vague bullshit
 
@VermillionAzure Not really, no, strength of FP is describing data flow
 
@BartekBanachewicz None. I'm just an undergrad, and I'm stupid. Point?
 
9:56 AM
Ref transparency is just something that makes optimising that easier
 
@VermillionAzure then start doing actual fucking development before you go on to analyze how developers write code
 
I should shut up and learn more? Learn what? Do what? Pick "something" and do "something," and yet, having a project-based job with bioinformatics isn't good enough...
 
@VermillionAzure I've told you in plain english what you should learn and do
 
> learn a real language and do a few dozen projects with it
 
You should learn and do programming, which is also known as writing programs
 
9:57 AM
suggestions? languages and projects?
 
Oh shut up, writing code is writing code
 
@VermillionAzure are you seriously asking me for a suggestion for your hobby development?
 
you need to pick your own language and do your own projects.
 
@Puppy reverse, but yeah
 
Go fist some assembly.
 
9:58 AM
@VermillionAzure pick a thing you want to do and then choose a language you like
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, this isn't hobby. This is supposed to educate me enough to the point where I have enough knowledge to do this topic
 
same thing
 
@VermillionAzure so basically hobby
 
You'll have enough knowledge in two decades. Until then, shush.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Obviously I don't understand the relevant concepts I should understand. You seem to have some ideas which ones I don't. can you recommend a few languages that exhibit some of these concepts easily for study?
 

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