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8:00 AM
@Rapptz Yeah in hindsight I think I understood what he meant. He's talking about the lambda, not the stud function.
 
@sehe I’ll remind that the range reflector participants admitted to discussing things privately.
 
@Griwes A good big chunk of the "paper" is QoI issues with MSVC stdlib.
 
Yeah.
And another is "we don't understand C++" (see the lambdas point).
 
it actually gets worse than that
 
brb
 
user1804599
8:02 AM
When you decouple and separate concerns, simplicity will ensure performance.
 
@LucDanton I don't think that's an issue per se. The question is, IMO, how these participants are (self?-)selected
I mean, Niebler seems to have gone off on his own these days. It's just after a lot of discussion setting the bearings and velocity, and everyone can see the results.
Not everybody agrees with the outcomes, but most critics already know their input has been met with much earlier on
> We are some of the biggest and most important users of the language, yet we have near no representation on the committee!
This looks like a fair observation, to me
 
Are they? Numbers please.
 
@sehe Okay but for the longest time the reflector ml was deserted. So, I ask, what is the difference?
 
lol I thought it was funny
 
> how these participants are (self?-)selected
Anyhoops. I just read the introductory blog now. Preparing myself to dig into the PDF
 
8:07 AM
@sehe How would I know? It’s private.
 
the list of participants is on the bottom of the PDF btw
 
We can see the resulting proposals. Except the ones that smother
 
i.e. none
 
Billy Baker
Daniel Gutson
Jason Meisel
Kieran O'Connor
Martin Slater
Matt Newport
Nicholas Baldwin
Nicolas Fleury
Nicolas Guillemot
Ryan Rohrer
Ryan Ruzich
Scott Wardle
Sean Middleditch
sittej
Vittorio Romeo
 
> (some are known only by their handle)
Am I old-fashioned for thinking this is a signal
 
8:08 AM
I find the distinctive lack of female offensive
 
@sehe yes
 
user1804599
@Cicada How do you know there are no females in there?
 
@Cicada Make a committee SG to make up for this
 
@rightfold Those are all male names
 
@sehe That's what I'd only be known as if I hadn't submitted some proposals myself.
 
8:09 AM
@Rapptz Actually, I think the need for verifiable credentials is absolutely not imaginary when it comes to standards bodies
 
user1804599
@Cicada Can't women have male names?
 
@rightfold Equality!
 
@Puppy Precisely my point
 
@sehe They are acknowledged, not authors.
 
Fair enough
 
user1804599
 
@Rapptz So the difference is that the process is more transparent I guess!
 
@sehe What, you think that it would be a negative thing for me to be submitting on the Ranges mailing list?
 
I don't care about the private ML so much.
 
@Rapptz Yeah that wasn’t the point remember?
Or which ML are we talking about?
 
The unofficial gamedev ML thing.
 
8:12 AM
Right.
 
It's the same concept as us talking about making a proposal in this chat room.
 
i.e. it’s the usual process
 
> He means free as in freedom.
ugh
 
@LucDanton I was gonna say, that pretty much sounds normal.
 
@Rapptz lol
 
8:16 AM
we are 6 hours post-deadline with no name
RIP project
 
$ rip install boost/bgl
 
@Puppy Nope.
@Cicada "rip" :)
 
@sehe Then I guess I don't see what your point was.
 
user1804599
 
$ shorts wear boost/bgl
 
8:18 AM
@Rapptz Yeah. The difference was in authors vs. contributors
 
$ cinch waddleintheoveralldirectionof boost/bgl
 
The point that listing internet screen names is not very informative.
I don't deny that it might serve a purpose (a gesture, a hat-tip) to the respective screen name owners
 
@sehe Do you think "real" names have more value...?
 
Certainly.
 
Disagreeing personally.
 
8:22 AM
@sehe Well... :)
 
Actually, it's not really applicable in the context of this paper anyways. Because "some" is 1 out of 15
 
Even if all of them didn't use their real name I don't see the issue.
 
13 mins ago, by sehe
Am I old-fashioned for thinking this is a signal
 
Yes you are old fashioned and/or naive if you think a real name is more real than a handle
Anyone can make up a real name with a real picture and a real background in any field
 
My review of "Cities: Skylines". I am now very tired, it is to blame.
 
8:25 AM
> girlfriend gets hangry like no one's business
which one is it
 
@Cicada giggidy
@Cicada I remember this blonde girl who was around here once...
 
@sehe 'Luc Danton' is thanked in one of the optional papers.
 
o.0 was @Cicada the first name you used when you first joined us?
 
no
 
@sehe Get with the times gramps!
 
8:27 AM
> (c) debug builds cannot break algorithm efficiency requirements
 
do you even know what names you've used?
 
:/
 
i've probably forgotten a few lol
who cares
 
> In our experience, games tend to use many enums (often auto-generated by tools) to
communicate between systems. Being able to iterate over enums or automatically convert
them to strings would be helpful for writing debuggers, loggers, profilers..
 
@Griwes ... well... debug might make it slower, but the 'big O' notation wouldn't change...
 
8:28 AM
Should I link them to my reflected_enum thingy?
 
@Griwes can't they just auto generate these 'to string' things and enum iterators
 
1 min ago, by Griwes
Should I link them to my reflected_enum thingy?
:P
 
@Cicada that one fat guy
just write a proposal for it
seems like everyone does it these days
 
@thecoshman what
 
@Cicada vOv I'm sure there's some fat guy somewhere getting butt hurt over people using the same name
 
Xeo
8:32 AM
TIL: Shift+Esc closes the current tab in VS
 
Too cool for Ctrl + W?
 
just what I was thinking :P
 
Xeo
@Rapptz doesn't work by default :P
 
I PASSED THE DRIVING TEST!!!111
 
@BartekBanachewicz Grats! How much did you have to bribe them to let you pass? :p
 
8:35 AM
Everyone get to your closest bunker.
 
@jalf I almost failed though
didn't look in the mirrors enough :|
 
@BartekBanachewicz mirrors are just for seeing what can't catch up :P
 
huh, finally configured my server
 
insert format your hdd joke
 
@thecoshman Yeah, if you go fast enough, what's behind you is irrelevant
 
8:38 AM
This is 2015, ssd joke
 
@jalf especially if it's faster than light, hrhr
 
@BartekBanachewicz Congrats1!!
What's going on with this gamedev thing
 
what specifically
 
I'm reading the transcript and I noticed discussions about a paper written by gamedevs about their concerns with C++
that's what I gathered so far
 
@BartekBanachewicz well done btw :P
 
user1804599
8:43 AM
Anyone used this? opengrok.github.io/OpenGrok
 
> One huge improvement of Rust over C++ is that everything except copy types (e.g. integers) is move by default and the compiler prevents you from using moved-from values
 
doesn't work for docked panels /cc @Xeo
Shift-Esc all the way :)
 
Is that really a good thing?
 
user1804599
Preventing you from using moved-from values is good.
 
IMHO move by default sucks.
 
8:44 AM
Maybe yes
 
The second part is definitely good.
 
user1804599
What I find more fascinating, and which is related, is that it guarantees you have at most one alias if you have at least one mutable alias.
 
yeah the static check is nice
but wouldn't it be possible even without move-by-default?
 
Yeah
 
Xeo
@Griwes dunno, I think it's fine
 
8:45 AM
@Xeo Having to write code to copy is suckage. :P
 
user1804599
You want moves more often than copies for many types.
 
Xeo
having to write code to move is suckage vOv
 
Especially when suddenly (I think they didn't change it yet?) .clone() is a shallow copy :/
 
I think explicit move makes more sense
 
well... move by default would be in the interest of 'performance' I presume...
 
8:47 AM
@Xeo Sure, I'd want the compiler to always do what I want, but I personally really dislike move by default.
 
it's not too hard to make C++ move when you want it
 
Anyway if the compiler can detect the usage of a moved-from object, why can't it just move if possible and copy if necessary?
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl I find explict copy saner. See where I'm duplicating data.
 
I think the problem is the variable that is left over you moved it to a function and that function returns... not sure how C++ makes you handle that
 
I can get behind move-by-default for uniquely owned variables that are never used after that point.
 
8:48 AM
@Griwes you more often want move than copy
look, in C++ everyone is all about "but will it copy"
 
@BartekBanachewicz see right above your message.
 
not that it's particularly wise
 
@Xeo That's a good point, but I also like to see where I am getting rid of valid data
 
@Griwes well that would just be an optimisation, no?
 
8:49 AM
@thecoshman Kind of, yes.
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl Because that is inconsistent. What is "necessary"? It might change by adding code after the point the argument is passed.
 
But it can't really be made legally without backing up by the standard.
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl Why? You get an error if you try to use it.
 
@Xeo but that's a big change that could brake code
 
@Xeo In that case the compiler will no longer move it, but copy it, no?
 
Xeo
8:49 AM
@AndyProwl Yes, which makes it inconsistent. It's context-dependent then.
 
@AndyProwl like I said, that is just a compiler optimisation, that needs no standardisation
 
> brake code
 
@Xeo it does the most efficient thing, it's transparent for the user. Move would be just an optimization.
 
@Xeo But it does what the programmer wants!
 
The user just wants to transfer state
 
8:50 AM
you want some way of marking a variable such that you get a compile time error if you try to use it after moving it
 
Xeo
Maybe the user didn't mean to reuse what he already passed on vOv
 
Can do that by moving? Fine. Can't do that because the object is used later on? Ok, I'll copy
 
@Cicada shut it!
 
@AndyProwl Yay, I'm not alone in thinking that \o/
 
great minds think alike
 
8:51 AM
@Cicada and fools find company
 
Honestly though I thought it's impossible to detect when a moved-from object is being used. At least in C++. Is that a false belief?
Or do things change in Rust because it's a different language?
 
you can obviously check at runtime.
 
I meant at compile time
 
Xeo
obviously it changes. it has this whole lifetime checker stuff.
 
That's the check Rust provides
 
8:52 AM
@AndyProwl I think that in C++ that might be hard - I think you'd need some augmentation in core language.
 
I don't believe they can catch all cases.
 
@rightfold how is that cool?
 
@Puppy That would be disappointing
Move-by-default relies on the compiler telling you if you're using a moved-from object
 
@thecoshman is that why you're never alone!
 
@AndyProwl Yeah it’s part of the type system.
 
8:53 AM
I see
Or rather, I do have a faint clue
 
well I guess something like if(someBool){functionThatMoves(T)} T.canIuseYou would be tricky to detect
 
@rightfold used, not deployed. It's cool. Apparently scales up really well
I've seen it used for the entire Open Solaris code base, e.g.
@thecoshman Not at all. Static analysis is static analysis. It will just have to consider both code paths (unless the condition is statically knowable).
 
OK, warm-up-before-work-day-in-the-lounge completed, time to start doing something I guess.
 
Wide?
 
@sehe that was my implication, if someBool get's its value from user input say
 
8:57 AM
In this case, analysis would report error like "possible use after move". It's not more complicated just because it might not happen
 
@thecoshman Then it is incorrect to use the thing.
 
@thecoshman thanks :)
@AndyProwl danke
 
@sehe I guess you could just do it that
 
@thecoshman If functionThatMoves grabs a reference, its name should be invalid, because it should copy :F
 
@BartekBanachewicz we don't care about your love life
 
8:58 AM
@sehe But reporting whether it might happen is not the same as actually catching it.
 
user1804599
@sehe I can port it.
 
It should only really be allowed to move if it was provably the only owner of the value.
 
user1804599
Without the fun of solving the riddle of the ctags file format.
 
@Griwes oh heavens know I didn't write a 600 line example!
 
user1804599
@thecoshman no
 
user1804599
8:59 AM
T is always considered moved-from at T.canIuseYou.
 
It was about knowing it statically.
If not, wokay
 

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