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8:00 PM
@CharlieBrown ever see the Zymatic?
 
@TomW yeah, its a really cool concept. I would love to see how good it turns out
 
I was maybe 25% convinced enough to buy one
I gather the way it worked was that it could dispense hot wort into a sealed vessel that you can let cool in its own time, and because it's totally sealed there's minimal risk of spoilage; cooling looks like the biggest issue in normal homebrew
 
Yeah I doubt that is an owin thing.
And the most popular one is out of stock
Man that beers of Europe site has crap for German beer
 
@TomW your right, cooling the wort quickly and sanitary is probably the hardest part of homebrewing
 
What's Wort?
 
8:06 PM
@drch pre-beer
 
You need it to cool quick though, "Cold break" will clump the proteins together so they fall otu of the solution. That creates a clearer beer with a less cloying/sweet flavor
 
A friend of mine has a pretty in depth home brew setup
 
I've only ever done LME brews. They're...poor.
 
@TravisJ ME!
 
He makes like 2 kegs a week I think
 
8:08 PM
Undesirable enough I haven't carried on; never made the step to more authentic recipes.
 
@CharlieBrown - If you ever want me to ask him about it let me know or if you feel like having something relayed
 
@ton double check that though. In prod, that might give you win32/inetsrv or something. There's always HostingEnvironment. MapPath
 
very few people have a more advanced setup than I do, maybe 1%,. probably less
 
Nice :)
Do you have one going right now then? :P
 
I also have an advanced setup
I think I have at least 3 bottle openers
 
8:10 PM
I would show you a picture of his setup but I avoid facebook at work like the plague
 
@TravisJ I posted a pic of mine a bit ago chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/23545258#23545258
"Content", "Copy to Output"
 
@CharlieBrown - Oh cool, that is very nice!
He has you beat though, by a hair
A lot of your setup is the same
 
@ton.yeung yeah, only works on files
 
Just googling brew kettles now. Thinking of starting the real thing. Not sure I have the budget for hundreds of pounds worth of German stainless steel though
 
I've sunk sooo much money into, its based on a popular HERMS design
 
8:14 PM
That setup looks epic
What % do you usually aim for
 
@TravisJ i dont have a goal, but they usually fall in the 5-7 range
 
@CharlieBrown - Nice. I think he does the same thing, but slightly lower at like 4-6. He said since he drinks so much of it he doesn't want the % too high.
 
protip: SafeSearch ON when googling "HERMS"
 
He's Irish so he goes through alcohol like no ones business.
 
I have a stout that is 8, and an imperial Russian stout that is 14. Otherwise I do some around 4-5 for the wife
 
8:15 PM
SafeSearch ON. Trust me.
 
Yes thanks I appreciate you peoples expert opinion... but the major issue I see with especially webforms is the controls concept. if the w3c designed things (tag) as basic and simple construct then it was good for custom work... you can't expect every website to be built the same way... clients demands can never be met following the asp.net webforms concept... I can never imagine microsoft software architects made such a blunder and violating the most basic principle.. You can never give someone a grid view and expect that it will be everything...
 
I got a head start a while back brewing. I was IT Director for a brewery in MD for 5 years
 
@whatever Have you ever heard of Sharepoint? It runs entirely on that premise
So while it seems frustrating, the architecture decisions were solid
 
@CharlieBrown - Nice lol
 
8:19 PM
Since they don't agree with you, I suggest you don't try to worry any more about WebForms and instead focus on MVC5
 
@whatever I can tell you right now, as an expert developer, that I have written a ton of very successful webforms projects. so if you failed, it wasnt b/c of webforms
 
I am frustrated.. I have built a whole website in asp.net webforms and now I am writing it all again in php.. and I am really tired at this moment..
 
@CharlieBrown that's less constructive
@ton.yeung doh
@whatever why PHP?
That seems counterproductive
 
@ton.yeung - That's not the whole document I provided to the client. I get into specifics before and after. That's just one section I used to describe why I think the changes are necessary and worth the investment.
 
@whatever I can't visit this website at work :p
 
8:21 PM
So you're correct :)
 
very very easy as compared to asp.net webforms and especially viewstate that did not let me do what I wanted
 
@whatever - Please come back when you have calmed down.
1 message moved to Trash
 
Millions of developers have done thousands of successful projects with asp.net, and one dude is like it sucks.
It's like the troll bridge formed over this rooom this morning
 
edc
I understand that software gets rewritten all the time, but why rewrite just because of switching technology? it's not strong enough a reason for me
 
@ton.yeung - I think you misunderstood what I was saying in that part of our conversation.
I mean, not that I communicated it well.
But I agree with you overall. I was disagreeing with some particulars and I think I didn't do a good job. Which is why I came here to discuss it so I can improve. :)
Will do. I have a pretty good idea how to repair the damage. I was trying to figure out how to sell it. :)
 
8:26 PM
@SpencerRuport - What needed refactoring?
 
@whatever Web forms is an abstraction so you lose some control. But you should still be able to accomplish anything the client throws at you. I would recommend MVC if you want more control over the markup
 
@ton.yeung - They've already done that and made a determination that something should be done. I just wanted to pitch some alterations to their plan.
 
I have code that is generating a DLL. How do I have it build that DLL against the Silverlight runtime?
 
@SpencerRuport is it too late to break into this convo? What did you write?
 
It's using AssimblyBuilder
 
edc
8:28 PM
@whatever plus you can mix asp.net with other tech. I've written stuff where I use 0 web controls in asp.net
 
@TravisJ - The project needs quite a bit of refactoring. There's zero documentation, using duplicate and aging technologies and some questionable architecture in general. Usual stuff for an older codebase.
 
Ok so what is this
A thesis or an email?
 
Email
 
Ok so firstly, use much simpler language
No 'thus'
Provide a summary at the top
 
@drch - When I've tried to communicate the importance of addressing code debt in the past I ususally get a glazed look. I wanted to reframe the discussion around something that non-technical people would understand.
 
8:32 PM
And be clear about action items
 
i second the music. "Were not gonna take it! No, we aint gonna take it!"
 
edc
maybe use business terms like ROI if it's for management?
 
Then put all the details underneath but keep the language simple
 
@ton.yeung - I don't think anything in there requires someone have much programming or IT experience.
 
There's only so much responsibility one can take on oneself to make it 'simpler for non-technical people'
At some point the non-technical people have to stop being dumb
This not the Smart Man's Burden
(/Woman's)
 
8:34 PM
Nah, I just mean that an email needs to be written at a level for all intended recipients' understanding
 
@TomW - Yeah I didn't mean dumb people. I think my audience is intelligent. They just may not grasp what "code debt" is and all the typical definitions lead to more questions than answers in my experience.
 
Even if the entire crowd is technical, there should be a summary at the top
 
edc
tie it to a dollar amount. everyone understands dollar amount
 
The people who need the details read them.
 
Builder. Rough job causes problems. Neat job takes longer but causes fewer problems.
 
8:35 PM
If I write an email with more than 3 paragraphs, I add a summary
But please please please use normal language.
 
You can clean up rough jobs as you go and reduce problems with a modest outlay of effort.
And every good builder should tidy up their site as they go.
 
Who was it the said "sorry I wrote you such a long letter but I didn't have time to write a shorter one"
 
@drch might have been Fermat.
 
It's rule 1 in business comm
 
The quip about "I have a briliant proof for this problem but it's too long to fit in the margin" was his
 
8:38 PM
But yeah this email needs actions at the top
 
Oops. Was Pascal.
 
@drch - This isn't the whole document.
The rest of it has information I'm not able to share. :)
 
Ok but even if it was that short it needs a summary
 
It has one.
I just didn't share it on pastebin.
 
At the beginning?
Executive summary style
 
8:39 PM
Does anyone find the builder analogy helpful? Or have I had a dramatic failure of empathy there and totally failed to find an analogy that a non-programmer would understand?
 
We must a and b because x and y
 
/sigh
 
Then go into the details.
 
No this section was somewhere in the middle.
I just wanted some opinions on the idea I was conveying in that section.
 
Ok but still, make sure the actions that you suggest or the actions that others must to are at the very top in a section that can be read in sub 10 seconds
Then back those up in the body
 
8:41 PM
No.
 
Wtf
 
The individuals reading this already have a bunch of research done and gave a 30 minute presentation on it.
 
Yeah and?
Dude even that section sounded hand wavy and used ideas that I would have to Google
It's not a term paper
 
>_<
Thank you for your criticisms.
I appreciate you taking the time to read it.
 
I don't mean disrespect and you can go into great detail. But just make sure that ACTIONS and RECOMMENDATIONS are written at the top in the most direct language you can muster
Below that you can write a novel if you think it's necessary
 
8:45 PM
They are.
 
Ok cool
 
I told you already it's not the whole document.
 
Who are these people that gave the presentation?
 
It has an abstract, technology overview, mention of the current plan, concerns, this section, sources of code debt and alternate suggestions to the current plan.
In that order.
 
Ok but don't say 'thus' <3
Also I think the standard term is technical debt
And the reason we say debt is because we are literally borrowing time from some future time schedule where we will have to invest the time to do shit properly
 
8:56 PM
I'm aware of that.
 
ooh, I won an stats answer :D
1
A: Get a random number focused on center

Travis JjsFiddle Demo Sure, the best way is going to be to weight your random number like you wish. The more you want to weight the number, the more you repeat that random selection. I will choose a very simple 2/3 ratio //Take a random number from 1-100 //Take two random numbers from 40-60 //Tak...

Sorry, but I thought it was cool
 
I would just say, drop an executive summary before the 'abstract' that makes your recommendations clear and you're good
 
lol okay man.
 
I took a biz comm class from a guy who traveled with president Bush. He was cool dude, very blunt though. He said brevity is very important. Get to the point quick, right out front in the first line. Then offer some reasoning in the second paragraph. In the third wrap up. Include a line with a nod to reading the overall message. Sign off.
 
Yes man.
Honestly I don't mean to be over the top
 
9:02 PM
@drch - I don't disagree with what you're saying but it wasn't what I was asking about. :)
 
But when you see someone writing something that MIGHT be too wordy, it's like seeing someone catch a null reference exception
 
I wanted opinions on the particular point I was making in that section. Not the overall document which would have required I share the whole document.
 
You already sent that email right?
 
Was it well received ?
 
9:04 PM
From the person I sent it to yes. It's now been forwarded to others and I haven't heard back from them.
But I don't expect to for about a week.
 
@SpencerRuport I don't completely get it. What's your idea about the no man's land code?
 
That's good :)
 
That you refactor it? Document it?
 
The theme is "reduce uncertainty". I recommend both refactoring and documentation depending on the area of the project in question. I point out some areas and mention how uncertainty can be reduced.
I can't say for certain that there are areas of the code that nobody understands. But I can easily identify areas that very few people know anything about.
For example they have two projects with a bunch of entities that are mapped from database records. Problem is there's two of these projects and a few seniors I asked weren't sure what the concrete difference between the two was. One project is 60,000 lines of code and the other is 120,000 if they could be combined a lot of uncertainty gets removed.
I felt like that explanation (with some differences in the actual document) could satisfy someone who has never written a line of code in their life.
 
Fuck. For the following job spec, note the 'Essential' section. It specifically asks for each point to be satisfied. How the hell do you quantify points like "A creative approach to problem-solving."?
 
9:12 PM
@TomW i put my toothbrush in the shower. Does that count?
 
What 'problem' does that solve?
 
I like having nice teeth and I like long showers
 
@TomW - "Get ready routine in the morning takes too long."
Parallel processing of Shower() and BrushTeeth() implemented.
 
Totally
 
Just don't get into a race condition with TakeDump()
That doesn't really bear thinking about.
 
9:15 PM
Ah fuck
'Ihr Paket wurde für Sie hinterlegt bei Ihrem Nachbarn'
Dude is creepy and has like 4 teeth
 
Your parcel was left with your neighbour?
 
Yeah. The fuckin delivery guys just hit every number when you're not home
First guy that answers has to take the delivery
Luckily it's a router and not a fleshlight
 
Unless they shrinkwrap them I can't imagine that would be a problem, unless your neighbours open parcels that aren't for them
 
a.Province = address.Items.OfType<ADState>().Count() > 0? address.Items.OfType<ADState>().First().Text[0] : "";

Is there a more eloquent way of writing that?
besides turning it into a 3 liner with an if check
 
If it might be a big list, then I would first or default and null check
 
9:23 PM
Extension method State(this Address address)
 
it will only be 0, 1, 2
 
Otherwise whatever is more readable
 
var adStates = address.Items.OfType<ADState>();
 
Items[] is an array of type ADXP, however only derived classes will be used in it
 
kind of mishit enter
 
9:24 PM
I might assign the of type to a variable first
 
ITems[0] = ADSTate
ITems[1] = ADCIty
Items[2] = ADAddressLine
Etc. (but random order)
 
Yeah like travis says
Android autocorrect is shit for writing code in chat
 
var adStates = address.Items.OfType<ADState>();
if( adStates.Any() )
{
    a.Province = adStates.First().Text[0];
}
else
{
    a.Province = "";
}
 
Yea, i was trying to void that many lines of code :P I'm in a lazy mood
thanks Travis
 
Yep winner there. You can ternary op that if you like too
 
9:26 PM
Sorry I always expand my c# stuff because it isn't like JavaScript. Extra bytes get compiled into nice small bits.
 
But I'm verbose like travis
 
That also removes all enumeration of the adstates set.
As it is a subset of Items it still gets placed into the enumerable up front, but Count() will cause the enumerable to be enumerated.
 
Hey, you'll be able to answer this.
 
Technically any and first would be two enumerations :)
 
Yes =/ Semantically that is correct lol
 
9:29 PM
I had something like this:
p.Address = cap.subject.registrationEvent.subject1.identifiedPerson.addr.Select(a => new AddressAttribute()
            {
                City = a.Items.OfType<ADCity>().FirstOrDefault().Text[0],
                Country = a.Items.OfType<ADCountry>().FirstOrDefault().Text[0],
                PostalCode = a.Items.OfType<ADPostalCode>().FirstOrDefault().Text[0],
                Province = a.Items.OfType<ADState>().FirstOrDefault().Text[0],
                StreetAddressLine = a.Items.OfType<ADStreetAddressLine>().Select(d => d.Text[0]).ToList(),
 
But you would have to do a firstordefault and null check which doesn't read so nice
 
It worked, however whenever I accessed p.Address the debugger would then point to a line within my code (like the PostalCode line)
Does .NET hold off on running that lambda until it's accessed the first time?
 
@RyanTernier - Who designed the Items enumerable?
 
Autogen code
 
That's ugly. At least do an Of Type. ToList
 
9:31 PM
I'm just wondering if .NET will skip over processing LInq/Lambda IEnumerables until you access the contents of them
OH I removed the above code
it was breaking when data didn't exist, had to fix it
 
and doing firstordefault and then accessing a property is ugly
 
It will not skip them, but they are deferred unless enumerated.
 
thought so
 
Should just be first in that case
Otherwise you hit an NRE
 
So .ToList() will enumerate which for most intents and purposes just populates the values
 
9:32 PM
NRE?
 
null ref excep
 
Ty
 
ywb
 
Ah, yes that's what i was getting. My tests were failing and it's easier for me to fix than create a task for another developer to fix
 
If you use .First on an empty set you get null
 
9:33 PM
Firstordefault.Foo is smelly
 
Yea
var country = address.Items.OfType<ADCountry>();
a.Country = country.Any() ? country.First().Text[0] : "";

That will work though
 
yeah because it tends to be default(Foo) if there is no data
which can cause problems later
yeah that works
It will either be text or "" and will not cause exceptions
 
Reshaper would give you a warning about enumerating twice
But if it's an array with 3 elements, who cares
 
enumerating twice by using any and then first?
 
Yep
 
9:36 PM
ah I see
var country = address.Items.OfType<ADCountry>().First();
a.Country = country == null ? country.Text[0] : "";
 
Imagine it was a EF iqueryable. That would hit the db twice
Ienumerable is fucking poison BTW
 
a.Country = address.Items.OfType<ADCountry>().Select(c => c.Text[0]).FirstOrDefault() ?? "";
 
why is it poison?
 
@SpencerRuport - OrDefault would never be null I believe
 
@ReedCopsey im speaking from the Web app world where it's often an iqueryable. I find it to be an extremely leaky abstraction
 
9:39 PM
@drch IQueryable is completely different than IEnumerable, though
the fact that C# treats the two identically is the abomination
 
And maybe people need to use more icollection and ilist in their interfaces
 
don't know if I agree there - using the least common denominator allows simpler refactoring
 
I think it's just abuse though
Reshaper says, hey you can use ienumerable here
You're just calling, count
 
lol - and that's horrible
 
@drch - I use IList a lot
 
9:41 PM
Right, but I find that as leamyy
Leaky
But again. I think it's because of abuse
 
public virtual IList<Foreign> Foreign { get; set; }
but then if I use that relation I will make sure to preface my query with .Include(parent => parent.Foreign)
 
@drch I agree 100% with IQueryable ;)
the example Travis wrote out is a good example of where its not ideal
 
Yes, no one should ever do that to an IQueryable
@SpencerRuport - Yeah that works
returned IQueryables should be immediately enumerated
 
Er, I dunno about that
 
9:48 PM
You work on a query manually?
 
I dunno. What I should have said is that I Query able, especially in EF, is an extremely leaky abstraction
I agree with your general architecture so I will like agree with your follow up
Just not that statement in a vacuum
 
so i was able to figure out how to pull up all the quotes a company has created...
 
fair enough :)
 
do i tell them, or do i scrape it and look for discount codes? ;O
 
@NETscape you are mr serial port right?
 
9:51 PM
scraping it seems dishonest
 
Why not both?
 
@TravisJ I do, in places ;) [but not via EF]
 
I need to snoop traffic. Like wireshark but for a port.
 
I just don't like in our code base, where we tolist everything but return ienumerable
 
@JohanLarsson easy peasy. just a MITM attack
 
9:52 PM
@ReedCopsey - I have all of my query stuff composed via passed in lists of expressions or based on a hard set of terms that aren't changed.
 
Thanks for the discussion guys - that helped me a lot.
 
Lists what's your problem. Don't be shy
 
@drch - Ah yes, that is strange
 
@drch I use IReadOnlyList<T> much
 
@RyanTernier - I love linq
 
9:53 PM
Say it loud and proud! You're a list, Harry!
 
@TravisJ That's a huge amount of overhead (code wise) that's really only there because EF sucks
 
@TravisJ I agree, I've been in a .net 2.0 world for 4 years; finding it strange putting what I read into practice now :P
 
@ReedCopsey - It makes it quicker for me to use. I actually like it a lot.
 
@JohanLarsson assuming its RS232, just "branch" off to breadboard, and hook it back into a second COM port
 
EF?
 
9:54 PM
@NETscape what is breadboard?
 
I have gotten used to typing
var filters = new List<Expression<Func<MyType,bool>>>();
filters.Add( m => m.SomeProp == someVal );
 
then just write an app that reads COM port.
 
@ReedCopsey thing is, it often happens that you get a reshaper warning about enumerating something twice. Which is valid
 
With more than just the one though obviously
 
But as the developer, you know that it's a list and count or any is free
 
9:55 PM
@JohanLarsson I mean you can do it any amount of ways, but you need to basically need to splice and loopback
 
IEnumerable leaves the door open for insanely slow things also
 
it accepts one as an optional parameter of filter: m => m.SomeProp == someVal
 
That's what I mean about even ienumerable being leaky
 
@NETscape I was looking for a program I guess.
 
And even if I enumerate once, maybe I pass it to 2 or 3 other methods which call first or count or any
 
9:56 PM
ahh, one that has everything built in like wireshark, so you don't have to sift through bytes and figure out whats what?
 
@drch Doesn't IReadOnlyList<T> solve the problem?
 
And reshaper says, hey you can use ienumerable here
 
List<T> & T[] implements it
 
I nicknamed my dynamic repository codefirst helper @drch
 
@JohanLarsson ienumerable is essentially readonly
 
9:57 PM
@drch That's not leaky - that's the nature of sequences, though
 
@JohanLarsson I think I found a program at one point... let me see if I can pull it up
 
the only "leaky" thing is that it may be optimized without you knowing it, but that's not a bad thing
 
Readonly lost is just an IList that throws exceptions on add
@TravisJ I am honored
 
using(var drch = new drch()){
 var user = drch.QuerySet<Users>( u => u.Name == username ).First()
}
:P
 
@drch wat? It just adds .Count and get [index] to IEnumerable
 
9:59 PM
I was pretty sure that AsReadOnly returns an IList or List
But I'm in the phone so I can't check
 
hold on, sample time
 

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