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4:00 PM
So why did you choose a framework that didnt allow you to do what you needed?
 
You don't choose a framework, a framework chooses YOU.
 
You can't blame a hammer for being a terrible screwdriver if you're the one who chose the tool from the toolbox
9
 
Or am I thinking of magic wands.
 
@CharlieBrown How do you know when you're able to choose a framework?
We all have to learn patterns and practices before we can decide
 
Try them first
Learn patterns later
 
4:03 PM
Aye, but never throw good money after bad.
"This isn't working, but I'll be damned if I change my ways"
 
15yrs ago you would have chosen between Webforms and PHP... which would you pick?
 
= :(
I'd have chosen Webforms, because the wages were better.
 
Today, you have more choices. You can say webforms is terrible now, but it wasnt much choice when it was written...so calling the dev team who created it terrible is just plain ignorant
 
@whatever I hope this helps you
 
The choice made sense, like others have said.... you have a team of devs that knows windows forms development. You need a website. your choices are PHP, ASP, or Webforms. Webforms is going to get your team up to speed somewhat faster.
 
4:06 PM
15 years ago we loved these things. Today we have better choices.
 
I agree with everything about it being bad, but you couldnt choose RoR or MEAN stack back then.
Now, if you choose to start a new webforms project today...yeah, your an idiot
It's like trolling about why people were so dumb to use Muskets back in the civial war... well, they didnt have a damn M16 back then
 
@CharlieBrown Let's go make fun of the top answer!
120
Q: When to favor ASP.NET WebForms over MVC

P.Brian.MackeyI know that Microsoft has said ASP.NET MVC is not a replacement for WebForms. And some developers say WebForms is faster to develop on than MVC. But I believe speed of coding comes down to comfort level with the technology so I don't want any answers in that vein. Given that ASP.NET MV...

Wait, accepted answer != top answer.
Hey, I have an idea I should do my work.
 
@ton.yeung already did
lol, so timely
 
and yet you still have to attend office?
 
@ton.yeung @SpencerRuport Layover in Frankfort, MI due to storm passing through.
 
4:25 PM
@ton.yeung one more storm like that and you can live on a boat, too!
Did your house/apartment see any damage?
 
@CharlieBrown - That's a beauty :)
 
@SpencerRuport unfortunately, The Admiral (my wife) got seasick her first time out...
 
She's never been on a sailboat before?
 
@ton.yeung That'll be fun. Wonder how long you'll be on hold...
 
@SpencerRuport A few times with me, but the first time on our boat
 
4:34 PM
Ah that's a bummer. Did you put her at the helm? I've heard that can help.
Helps the brain make sense of the motion or something.
That thing is siiiick
My completely uneducated guess is they'd get more control if the feet were oriented more like a snow/surf board.
 
We broke out the gingersnap cookies... She went down into the cabin when some big waves were on the horizon, prob just got mixed up
 
Ah yeah that'll do it.
I've only gotten seasick once. I was in the Caribbean sailing in open water with people I didn't know. It was awful.
@ton.yeung - What do you think of this: pastebin.com/raw.php?i=dFQpFbcw
I wrote it so be nice. <3
 
I only wish I could nerd this hard. youtu.be/EKtVubFisrk?t=20s
 
4:52 PM
lol ok
 
Esoteric
 
Yes, I agree that there's a proper way to develop every project. But it's unique to each project. My personally feeling is that gets lost in the generally understood meaning of "code debt".
I think depending on the technology stack you're using, the goals of the project and the environment where it will be used have a significant impact on the design of a project.
And debates about what's proper can often devolve into "You should never use PHP." but then someone comes along and points out that Facebook uses PHP and they're technically correct. It becomes a difficult point to communicate to a diverse audience with varying technical understanding.
Reframing all design decisions as not just satisfying the functional requirements of the project but also keeping uncertainties to a minimum is a concept that anybody can grasp.
That's my goal.
@ton.yeung - Marking this so we can pick up later :)
 
I would stick with "Technical Debt", its more precise
 
5:07 PM
@CharlieBrown - Did you read it? My link I mean
@KevinStricker - Is you avatar an icon from ages ago? I vaguely remember seeing it somewhere.
 
@SpencerRuport yes
 
@CharlieBrown - What do you think?
 
@SpencerRuport Yes.
On meta.se my name is WINSOCK.EXE even :P
 
ha nice.
I remember using it but it was so long ago and I was so young I don't remember what it was used for exactly.
 
@ton.yeung @SpencerRuport I'm split between your two sides on "proper". I agree that "proper" is subjective, yet at the same time I think @ton.yeung has the right idea, that many things are clearly incorrect, and should follow internal standards. Often, teams are pressed for time by management who chooses a date before understanding the amount of effort involved, and shortcuts/sarcifices must be made by the team. Those sacrifices must be remedied
 
5:13 PM
All the ISPs apparently distributed winsock.exe without actually licensing it. Good times.
 
oh yeah, I remember getting it from my ISp in a zip
 
I didn't mean to disagree with the idea that some things are indisputably incorrect.
 
@SpencerRuport right... i think highlighting the word "proper" could use some refactoring into something more precise
It's a bit buzzwordy for me... but thats due to compressed length... if it was much longer, you wouldnt have that
 
@CharlieBrown - I just meant when you're sitting around a table with a bunch of people who have been working with the project for 5 years it's difficult to get everyone to agree with what's the "proper" way to implement the project.
 
5:16 PM
@SpencerRuport thats for sure
 
Reducing uncertainty is a bit of a more unifying goal and even if someone objects to a solution they may concede if they recognize that it will reduce uncertainty for the rest of the development team.
 
@SpencerRuport however, the entire team could probably agree on what in the codebase is crap
 
Maybe. In my experience those conversations are always a little more complicated than I expect.
 
edc
heck I am having a hard time agreeing with myself sometimes what is the proper way to code up something
 
oh, we know
 
5:18 PM
Uncertainty ties the conversation to something that can be objectively measured. You can go around the table and ask how many people are familiar with X feature and looking through it together you can demonstrate how much confusion an implementation generates.
It downplays opinions and concentrates more on facts.
 
With a loose team, yes. But with 5 devs who work on the same codebase, Im betting there is those 2 or 3 eyesores
 
True, I think it also depends on how old the codebase is. If those 2 or 3 eyesores have gone untreated for 4 or 5 years they've infected the rest of the codebase so the whole thing looks bad now.
 
yes, it spreads
 
That's what I'm dealing with atm so I was trying to figure out a new strategy for encouraging clean up.
I'm hoping the new language communicates the point to whoever reads it regardless of their technical understanding.
We'll see.
 
5:34 PM
organizational*
Kind of a large difference
 
yeah, multitasking
 
If you are going to use multiple tasks at least make sure you use await so that threads can have the proper amount of processing power to function :P
 
@CharlieBrown This is interesting.
 
@CharlieBrown - I feel like that article comes from someone who looks at the tech industry as a bank.
People without a science background tend to misunderstand the culture in tech, and they desperately want to return to suits, memos, cps reports, and a more formal way of business.
 
@CharlieBrown - That's a fantastic article.
 
5:49 PM
I guess I was the only one who read it as get rid of fussball and hawaiin shirts.
 
@TravisJ - This is what stuck out to me the most.
> He should stop thinking about 10% raises and start thinking about what he’d have to pay to replace employees who hold critical knowledge and train new ones. It felt to me more like 50% raises in quite a few cases.
Critical knowledge is incredibly undervalued.
 
Yes, compensation is important. But I feel like it was hard to glean enough context to actually determine if that was really the case or if this person was just spouting rhetoric.
 
Well, yeah. You get into discussions with people up that high and it's hard to tell.
 
Also, there seems to be a sort of hypocrisy in saying that people with critical knowledge need to be retained at all costs, and that critical functions need to be refactored and modernized at all costs.
 
I don't follow what you're saying.
 
5:55 PM
Let's say that a major part of the company is the use of its UI, and the UI works very well for what it is supposed to do. But there is one catch, it is in old school webforms. Luckily they have an expert with critical knowledge of how the webforms implementation works. If there is an expert in writing webform grids, and suddenly the company moves to angular, why is the expert required?
 
The expert will still retain a significant knowledge base about the business rules and caveats involved.
And if they don't, they're not.
 
I don't think they should know about business rules though. Perhaps caveats of the UI, but business rules should be refactored out to someone that is not them. That represents a serious violation of cross cutting concerns. Another point to make is that retaining someone who has a large amount of critical knowledge is that that knowledge stays centralized and cannot easily be spread out.
Either the person should already have been placed in management to oversee a team that can refactor the concerns to be less coupled, or having that much knowledge in one place is just waiting to be removed anyway as the product scales.
 
How can an engineer remain unaware of business rules?
 
I was interpreting that as business logic, did you mean something else?
 
People with critical knowledge need to learn to DOCUMENT their critical knowledge
 
6:00 PM
That is a good point @Ryan
 
Simplisticly speaking I meant stuff like "First name is required."
 
Requirements, Non-Technical requirements, design, documentation
All that stuff should be somewhere. We use Sparx Enterprise Architect for it - works pretty well
 
Odd I cannot star your comment. Resolved
 
@SpencerRuport That should be driven by a requirement that is documented somewhere. Linked to a design of that "UI"
 
@RyanTernier - That looks like interesting software actually
I always liked the code generation aspect of UML type design.
 
6:04 PM
The only code gen we use is for some entity classes.. but even then it's sometimes better to hand bomb them
 
I hand write everything, even the sql tables. Very code centric. But I still always liked the idea of automatically generating code :)
 
@RyanTernier - That documentation still requires time and effort to absorb. The criticality of the individual remains until someone else has done so.
 
@SpencerRuport That's usually the conundrum. In a consultants life, my bosses want me to be 100% billable, however I have to push back on that saying If I'm 100% billable, then you need to hire X people to backfill the crap I can't do because it's not billable. So either give me co-ops/interns to get me coffee and wipe my ass, or let me do my job so our clients are happy and renew this contract.
 
@TravisJ - So I'm still not sure what you meant earlier. I'm sure both you and @RyanTernier are aware of a number of business rules. That, in addition to your familiarity with the codebase, is what makes you critical.
bbiab
 
@SpencerRuport - I wouldn't really call parameter requirements critical knowledge though. In fact, thinking out it, the term critical knowledge is a very vague term in itself.
 
6:15 PM
what's the best http response code for webapi to tell ppl that they over used their daily request cap? or it's something i can only do by return some literal sentences
 
@ton.yeung - And if the implementation can no longer be accomplished by the expert, then has their knowledge become obsolete?
Yes, hence the vague terminology of critical knowledge.
It is not well defined, and therefore is rather vague.
It is basically defined on a case by case basis which means that it is highly biased.
Critical knowledge is properly defined as "disciplined thinking that is clear, rational, open-minded, and informed by evidence"
Any interpretation of the phrase "critical knowledge" comes from personal inference based on situation. That inference is where the bias is.
No, I understand the context of the phrase with regards to important employees and their retained knowledge of mission critical aspects of a business.
However, it is not defined anywhere and as long as I eloquently describe how to define it, it seems that is taken as the current definition.
For you, for me, for someone else, for this other person, for spencer, for ryan. There is a large amount of bias in each version of our definitions. That is why it is vague.
I think tech in general does a good job of retaining talent.
Large companies have the issue of leveling off though. And as they level, the upward mobility of their employees stagnates.
That is part of the corporate ladder.
It isn't unique to tech.
@ton.yeung - That is how finance works, and they are a rather large industry.
Yes
Often even returning to the same ship
@ton.yeung - In fact, the tenure overall seems to be based more on the age of the employee than anything else.
Here are some stats on employee tenure from the Bureau of Labor Statistics bls.gov/news.release/tenure.nr0.htm
It states that engineers have the average tenure of 6.4 years
I don't see any indication of developers in that report. Where are you getting the 2 year number from?
Also, what do you suppose the average age of a developer is?
The BLS states the tenure for "workers ages 25 to 34 years (3.0 years)"
So that would fall under the average for that age group which seems to be a larger factor than by industry.
It doesn't mention age group. It mentions service occupations
It is inline with their age group. As the employee becomes older and more experienced they reach whatever employment goal they had set.
If it were statistically outside of the normal rate that younger employees move around I would argue they are not good at retaining employees but that is not the case.
As long as expected.
There is a physical barrier to promoting employees too quickly in most companies.
There is literally no space in the company above the position where that person is.
It is.
 
6:43 PM
Why care about retention? It's a lie
 
I would wager the primary reason employees seek other positions is for promotion.
 
@TravisJ My employees haven't ever had a "promotion", and my average tenure is going on 7 years right now ;)
lol
my employees are happy because they work on stuff they enjoy more than anything else, to be honest
and they're treated decently
 
Reed is lone woodwind in the huge field of grass
One great way to make your employees leave is to listen to their advice, then ignore it on the basis of "we dont have time to do it right"
 
@ReedCopsey - What is their average age?
 
yep - and, to be honest, we don't pay that well - but we do have good benefits, they make "enough", they have huge amounts of flexibility
mmm - I think ranging from 24 to 39
 
6:49 PM
The only turnover we have here is from firing people
But we also only have like 55 people and are not in tech
 
we just got absorbed into 3 other departments
 
@ReedCopsey - That is pretty good :)
 
so instead of marketing we are called people services
 
I think the key is everybody's comfortable with what they make, and very happy with the actual work and flexibility ;)
 
lol
@ton.yeung i guess it can be worse
 
6:51 PM
Good evening all!
 
everyone is expected to help out with everyone(cross training)...but noone is doing mine
lol
 
Training is that buzzword that never gets accomplished, or if it does it is in the form of a PowerPoint that everyone must review
 
@ReedCopsey - I would hate to work somewhere that didn't value my input on either architecture or design. Being a cog sounds terrifying imo.
 
posted on May 27, 2015 by Scott Hanselman

It's early days, but this is a nice preview of the possibilities of things to come. I often use LEGO bricks in the way of an analogy when talking about software systems. I like the idea of choice, flexibility, and plug-ability. Choosing your language, operating system, deployment method and style, etc are all important. There is a preview of an extension for Visual Studio 2015 (the release c

 
@ton.yeung <brag>Done it already</brag>
* not with visual studio
Yes, this looks like less of a pain in the balls
 
7:20 PM
@TomW this looks like a pain in the balls
 
i have this query to read from a text file, replace a word and write to another file
how can i replace multiple words in a textfile and write it to another textfile??
 
How to access x:Name defined inside a DataTemplate
 
I have one confusion - I have a web api deployed on server and I have another app using .NET MVC 5 , I want to call the apis like login, register. Should I use RestSharp or ServiceStack client?
 
programatically
 
the text in the text file is a zpl code that i need to send to a zebra printer but before that there are some paramenters that i want to replace based on the users input in the text box please help??
string filepath = System.IO.Path.GetFullPath("Test.txt");
                StreamReader reader = new StreamReader(filepath);
                string input = reader.ReadToEnd();

                using (StreamWriter writer = new StreamWriter(saveFileName, true))
                {
                    {
                        string output = input.Replace(word, replacement);

                        writer.Write(output);


                    }
                    writer.Close();
saveFileName = test1.txt
the above code works great for one word and replacement but i have 7 fields to be changed
 
7:31 PM
@ton.yeung "Architect" on project: "All functions should be wrapped in a try...catch, especially web api. This is a requirement"
 
So do it in a loop
 
ugh
 
I'm not sure whether I should be appalled or giggle hysterically
 
flight got delayed and now my connecting flights dont match
 
@CharlieBrown "One, no it isn't. It's an implementation detail"
Two...you're an idiot
 
edc
7:35 PM
@CharlieBrown you can be rebellious and do try catch but throw the same exception back
there, everything's wrapped
 
Here is the best part... All the web API methods just call a service, which has a global try..catch for everything via Func<T>... so the only thing you could be catching is a framework runtime error
 
Which the consuming controller shouldn't know, so I don't object to it on those grounds
 
To me that's only stupid due to repetition
Surely Web API has something similar to Application_OnError to handle the shit once
 
This is the same guy that requires all ctors to be "internal" and has factory methods that just do new Unicorn() and thats it
 
Oh god
 
7:38 PM
@CharlieBrown ugh - so, not really an architect :p
 
Typically, in big business the only reqt for Architect is years of service
 
Our 'architect' immediately closes his code reviews if you point out a defect. Simply says no you're wrong and closes it.
Although he's the only one who calls himself the architect
Him and his email signature
 
In his next review, I should offer him the title of "Over-Architecht"
 
my favorite kind
 
7:45 PM
Although in German, it would sound like a promotion
 
"Every class must have an interface"
 
@drch are you his boss?
 
Yes
 
Then slap the idiot
 
you didn't have to take comm as a gened?
 
7:47 PM
Yeah I went right to him when this happened
 
it was when i was in uni. but the instructor for that course can barely speak english
 
Like seconds afterwards. Tried to reply but the review was closed
 
1) Don't do that 2) Don't refer to yourself as a title you don't have
 
@CharlieBrown Is he an ex-Java dev?
 
ah
 
7:49 PM
Hey Gang
 
the comm course in my mba program is just like a chatting room
 
what is the approach to take in order to have a split view (just like js fiddle) where you can have code in one side and rendering in the other side in real time
 
@drch lmao
 
depending you want code are you writing? html?
 
@CharlieBrown i am asking that question because i am about to work with Tagger :)
 
7:51 PM
@Alundrathedreamwalker iframe with a dethrottled key up handler
 
I have 3 kegs of beer I brewed for a bday party this weekend... tonight I'm going to put a huge dent in them
 
i wan to try something else other than iframe
is that even possible?
 
@drch its c#
 
@CharlieBrown what did you make?
 
@CharlieBrown mmmm
 
7:51 PM
How many liters is a keg in this case
 
or it will require a looooooot of work
 
liters...hmmm, checking
~ 19liters, 5gal, 40pints each keg
 
@Alundrathedreamwalker I think Reactive Extensions has a dethrottle equivalent
 
1 keg =
58.6738827 liter
lol, that's a lot
 
These are 5gal kegs, not 15gal (1/2bbl)
 
7:53 PM
19 is a lot different than 58
 
Standard for homebrewing
 
15 gal is still a lot though... how many ppl are going to deal with it
 
I have a stupid question
 
@CharlieBrown is it any good? My homebrew has been fairly poor. What's your technique?
 
@Jeremy Belgian Wit, Dbl Chocolate Stout, and Blonde Ale
 
7:54 PM
LME only brews tend to be fairly grim
 
@CharlieBrown pls send belgian wit
 
If you homebrew, is there some way to measure the actual alcohol content of the end product?
 
@TomW extremely good. Award winning
@drch yes
 
Blonde ales are my fav
 
@drch hydrometer
 
7:54 PM
the Belgian Wit is 6.4%abv, the Stout is 8%abv
 
 string word;
                string replacement;
                string saveFileName;
                string dir = System.IO.Path.GetDirectoryName(System.Reflection.Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().Location);
                word = "Item";

                replacement = textBox1.Text;
                saveFileName = "test1.txt";

                string filepath = System.IO.Path.GetFullPath("Test.txt");
                StreamReader reader = new StreamReader(filepath);
                string input = reader.ReadToEnd();
how to replace multiple words in a textfile??
 
@HackGod555 you posted that already. Just do a loop in the using block
 
@CharlieBrown have you tried this one before beersofeurope.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/…
Walk on water... baby
 
@CharlieBrown are you a grain brewer? I'd guess so, from that description
it sounds...complicated and easy to get wrong
 
7:56 PM
@drch please an example
 
@TomW all grain
 
for each output
something like that
 
:D
we're not worthy
 
can i be your roommate?
lol
i can take the basement
 
I recognise all the kit, I've done a lot of research but never had the money or space
 
7:57 PM
@Alundrathedreamwalker I'm not sure my wife would be cool with that
 
@HackGod555 firstly, I'm on a phone. Secondly a for loop is basic programming. Give it a try an post your result. I'll help you through any problems but this is not a 'please write code for me' chat room.
 
@TomW yeah, its based on someones design, semi-automated which is nice b/c it takes 5 hours. I can walk away for 3 hours in the middle of it
 
OK, not that specific kit
 

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