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1:00 PM
@Billdr Think of it as different parts of the same country taken over by different colonialists.... the parts taken over by France speak French, parts taken over by Britain speak English, the parts taken over by Spain speak Spanish, ....
 
Actually, I think Ebonics has been recognized as it's own language. It borrows from English words, but the grammar and usage aren't compatible.
 
@Billdr With 28 states in India, that's 28 different languages :-)
 
So... North America
Yuk
I guess I kind of understand the draw of English, then
Woah, knockout is cool.
 
@Billdr If you were to visit India, most people speak at least English and Hindi
@Billdr One of the things that makes outsourcing to India easier... one doesn't have to learn a language to deal with the outsourcers
 
o/
 
1:04 PM
I guess I have a question. You know that "Windows Support" scam? Some company hired a bunch of Indians to call people in an attempt to convince them that their computer is infected and the only solution is to pay $$$ to have the problem solved? How do the Indian portion of these companies keep from getting shut down?
Technically that's three questions, I suppose.
 
Jez
@Nitin yeah but im saying people may not have a choice with Metro
 
Good morning, all!
 
Hey Spencer
and Rlemon
 
I need caffeine. That exclamation point took it all out of me.
 
@Billdr I guess it's because no one in India complained about them, or because the Indian workers were with a firm providing managed call-center services.
@Billdr For instance, you could hire a firm in India to create a computer virus
 
1:06 PM
Hmm. So as long as they're not ripping off Indians, the Indian government doesn't care? Interesting.
 
@Nitin But the accent.
 
^
 
@Billdr No questions asked - they build the computer virus, ship it to you, and you can unleash it on the rest of the world, for all they care.
@Billdr Most of the folk in India haven't really heard of the Windows Support scam. Chances are the government hasn't either.
 
Hmm. Anyone want to go in on paying some Indians to write a virus to shut down Indian call centers?
 
Sweet, I'm gonna design a virus, outsource it, and infect the virus's programmers.
 
1:07 PM
Hrm. The UK and US governments started raising a fit about "Windows Support" scams recently.
 
@KendallFrey I had to watch a poor quality video done by an Indian man who had the thickest accent. Thick accent + poor quality = no sense.
 
@KendallFrey Yes, the accent takes a bit of effort to figure out in many cases. A good call center trains its staff to speak with a neutral or American accent.... unfortunately, not everyone is willing to pay their prices
@KendallFrey You should watch Outsourced. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsourced_(film)
 
There is no such thing as a neutral accent.
 
@KendallFrey If a firm wants to cut expenses, it can hire fresh grads in India who have never spoken English before heading out of high school. Extremely cheap, but it usually doesn't end well.
 
Huh, I have never gotten a call or worked with an outsourced developer who's taken such a program.

Hell, one of our senior devs is from India. He has lived here for ten years. I still have to guess at what he says most of the time.
 
1:10 PM
@SpencerCole MOST YouTube videos by Indians have a very very heavy accent. Even other Indians find it hard to follow along :-P
 
Okay, /rant. back to loving knockout.
 
@Nitin The video I'm talking about was a .swf file that we just had to run.
 
@Billdr The Punjabi taxi drivers in the U.S. have an accent that most Indians from India would have a hard time understanding - I'm not saying that isn't Indian, but it isn't common in India.
 
We got American, Canadian, Indonesian, and Tajikistani here.
 
We don't have cabs here.
Small town, ftl.
 
1:12 PM
We learn to deal with accents.
 
@Billdr Besides, there's a Punjab in India and a Punjab in Pakistan... :-P
 
Oh man, Canadian's are the worst. I can't handle their flappy head accent.
 
@KendallFrey If you can figure out the lyrics from Snow's Informer, you can figure out any accent :-D
 
Jez
hey, i have a question. why do people say "skinny controllers" are such a good idea?
 
@Billdr What are you talking aboot, eh?
 
Jez
1:13 PM
(in MVC)
 
@Billdr A lot of people like the British accent though.... apparently, they think it is exotic
 
@SpencerCole I think you mean, "Would you please tell me what you're talking aboot? I'm sorry for having you explain it to me, eh."
 
@Billdr theres something harder to understand than a heavy scottish accent?
 
@Jez Because a fat controller is probably doing stuff that the presentation or model should be doing
 
@Billdr Zing!
 
Jez
1:14 PM
@Nitin the trouble is though, that if i put a bunch of logic in my model, i need to have separate EF models and MVC models
 
Just hope you're not dealing with a Newfie. Good luck understanding those.
 
Jez
i dont want all that logic in my entity models presumably
 
@Maverik Yes. A drunken scott with a heavy accent.
 
@Billdr Not hard to understand. Just takes quite a bit of whiskey.
 
@Jez Usually the problem is with presentation logic in the controller - imagine formatting dates in the controller
 
1:15 PM
It's the remembering part that kills you.
 
I used to work for a scottish director and patience was not his forte. I dreaded going into his room to fix whatever was broken. He wouldn't shut up, kept watching over my shoulder and expecting me to wave the magic wand. Between him watching over my shoulder, me trying to figure out what's wrong and trying to figure out what he's saying (so i can answer him) - problems took a long time to fix! i usually sent my boss into his room whenever he called me!
 
Or the 'quite a bit of whiskey' part. It's a toss up.
 
Jez
@Nitin in this instance, i am refreshing one database with data from another.
@Nitin doesn't belong in the repository, and presumably doesnt belong in the controller
(not with skinny controllers)
 
so, beginner's question: what's the difference between initializing an attribute as 'private List<Blah> list = new List<Blah>();' or initializing it in the constructor?
Let me rephrase that: IS there any difference?
 
@LeClerq When you use the constructor, you can pass it a bunch of variables to have it set up a certain way.
 
1:18 PM
@LeClerq you can initialize values when passed from constructor depending on who is calling but you can't do that if you're always initializing to new list<>()
nuuu!! :( my slow speed!!
ok i want +7.5 of that rep!!
 
okay, but I don't want that. I just want the list initialized when the object containing the list is created.
 
In the constructor, you control when it's initialized. At the declaration, it is initialized sometime before the constructor. Also, there are things you can't do at the declaration, like use other variables.
 
so Blah newBlah = new Blah("blah1", 2, "blah3"); would be the same as Blah newBlah = new Blah(); newBlah.setBlah1("blah1"); newBlah.setBlah2(2); newBlah.setBlah3("blah3");
 
@LeClerq you can do it either way then
 
@SpencerCole blah?
 
1:20 PM
That's assuming it's set up that way.
 
25% done. Woo!
 
@KendallFrey Blah.
 
Blah!
 
Blah? Blah! Let me worry about blank!
 
@Billdr I loved the star example - it was so simple and elegant, brought a tear in my eye!
 
1:21 PM
 
Thanks @SpencerCole
 
@Maverik Which star example? On knockoutjs.com?
 
old Blah(); new Blah();
blah.Blah(blah);
// I am Dr. Seuss
 
No problem. I'm here to answer fun quesitons.
 
@Billdr yea, if you haven't run into it yet, you will. when i did that example, i knew i wanted knockout on my web projects
 
1:23 PM
I'm still reading about the neat things you can do with data-bind, such as call functions.
 
power of javascript + mind of linq .. you can do some amazing stuff
and be amazingly stuck at it too!
@Nitin just recalled why I went into knockout.js - I wanted to start my web project from SPA pattern :)
i must bookmark that and paste it to most religious discussions and then walk away :)
 
@Maverik I've seen a lot of MS Ajax and jQuery code written to hack around creating SPA web apps
@Maverik Anything is better than those hacks :-D
 
@Nitin its may be hack for now but soon it'll be a framework (i hope!)
SPA just came out after all
 
@Maverik I'd prefer Rich Client Apps because they are essentially just application containers within browsers
@Maverik Yes, I hope to try out knockout.js someday and introduce it to all of the folks who hacked their way through implementing SPA
 
I guess my major appeal is the desktop applications mindset - do things on clientside if you can
 
1:29 PM
@Maverik On the web, the whole issue around preventing cross-site scripting and then creating workarounds to enable cross-site scripting is simply absurd
 
this could be completely my lack of web development experience, but I feel asp.net development works more on server side than on client side.. client side generally appears dumb compared to what server side is doing
 
@Maverik Creating a signed app that works with a plugin and resembles a desktop app, or simply handing over a desktop app is what would be ideal. Adobe Air seemed to pick up in that regard... then they announced that they were going the way of HTML5+JS, all over Apple's intentions of never supporting Adobe Flash.
 
@Nitin just one of the many reason why i stay away from it. When i started out knockout.js I was making this simple page that was supposed to pull a few 1000 records. I figured it will make a good practice. I couldn't get it to work for days
 
Morning folks.
 
I attributed it to my noobness - then one day i realised I'm not hitting the server - i'm hitting the load balancer and then getting forwarded. I removed that balancer from equation and it worked! things I dont have to deal with when i'm in WPF/WCF !
 
1:32 PM
@Maverik The earlier approach by Microsoft is that if something was open-source and was easy to use, Microsoft would replicate it and make it a part of the Microsoft framework... now, apparently, they are more open to using open-source libraries
 
@Bracketworks Morning
 
Can anyone explain this?
Dictionary<string[], string> collection = new Dictionary<string[], string>();
collection.Add(new string[] { "foo", "bar" }, "hello");
collection.Add(new string[] { "baz", "zip" }, "world");

this.Response.Write(collection[new string[] { "foo", "bar" }]);
// System.Collections.Generic.KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary.
 
@Maverik You should have a go at programming using only ASP.NET generic handlers.... it gets you closer to what is going on beneath the framework
 
How is equality for string[] tested?
 
@Nitin I am really liking the new approach but its not going to reach its full potential until people drop the "not going to try it until it hits sp1" mindset
Aaaa... the pointer magic!
 
1:33 PM
@Maverik But having a framework do everything for you is more natural for a desktop app developer
 
@Bracketworks object.ReferenceEquals() is what you're looking for (and is being applied in dictionary)
new string[] { "foo", "bar" } != new string[] { "foo", "bar" }
@Nitin isn't that how it should be? I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get data that is already mine!
someday the world will evolve and I'll come into web development... someday!
 
@Maverik Yes, it is, but as a hobbyist, getting it all done with your own code gives you a sense of... satisfaction
@Maverik Think about writing your own web server using System.Net.Socket - sure, nobody would want to put my web server into production, but it was fun to do anyway :-)
 
@Nitin :) I guess I'm past that point. Now I prefer to stand on the shoulders of giants
 
hi folks
can anyone in here possibly answer this question:
0
Q: evaluation of mathematical expressions - always left to right?

yas4891Is there a rule in mathematics that states that expressions shall be evaluated from left to right? e.g. given the expression 6 / 2 * (1 + 2) is there a rule so that only (6 / 2) * (1 + 2) is a valid representation and 6 / (2 * (1 + 2)) is invalid?

 
@Nitin completely agreed. I've done that for learning purposes but I can't do that when I'm trying to do my job :)
 
1:39 PM
@Maverik Same here.... I'd rather just use the WebForms UI designer to whip up a quick prototype than build an app perfectly from scratch in MVC.
 
I've gone as far as coding in assembly just to get the satisfaction of being able to do stuff
but for obvious reason I can't do that with todays apps under normal circumstances :)
 
lol @KendallFrey
 
@yas4891 I don't feel like we're the right people for that sort of question where you'd want an authentic answer
 
@Maverik I had a go at OS development with assembly... never got beyond the point of getting the computer to boot and display a message, but still satisfied with the experience
 
@Maverik Dunno. Some people in here might be CS grads and should have a decent mathematical education
 
1:41 PM
@Nitin I wanted to do that but never got to that point
@yas4891 i'm a CS grad.. as I'm sure many others are too
if you're asking you can do the expressions either way.. yes you can
 
@yas4891 Yes, Math requires you to evaluate multiplication and division first, unless there are parentheses
 
if you're asking for a specific mathematical grammer rule that states syntax - then I don't know
 
I learned this in High School, why didn't you?
 
@yas4891 It's not necessarily left to right. You have to do things in a certain order, but within that order you can do that any way you like.
 
1:43 PM
or am I not getting your question pulls a Fry face
 
eg: doesn't matter if you do division or multiplication first, as the answer will be the same.
 
@LeClerq please re-read the question
 
@yas4891 no he's right. I'm not getting the question either. I guess the confusion is.. are you asking us a very basic question or an advanced semantics questions (where you'd want references)?
 
@Maverik oh ok. I updated my question. I was asking this because I get different results on different calculators
and I wondered whether there is a law that proves that one of the results is wrong-ish
 
@Maverik I see; silly me. Thanks!
 
1:46 PM
Wrong-ish? See my comment.
 
@Bracketworks no problem
 
maybe it's a japanese calculator? grins
 
Hebrew, maybe.
What else goes RTL?
 
see you wouldn't be in this mess if you were in Polish notation!
 
@KendallFrey Oh I see - so the operators are left-associative. Thanks for your help. And sorry for that stupid question
 
1:48 PM
there are no stupid questions :)
 
how is babby formed?
2
 
unless i ask a question on haskell!
 
hell - I never really wondered about that TBH
 
@Maverik @IliaJerebtsov proved you wrong.
 
@IliaJerebtsov they need to do way instain mother
@KendallFrey not if theres an answer to the question ;)
 
1:50 PM
I do not get why 6 / (2 * (1 + 2)) is wrong btw
multiplication goes before division?
 
@LeClerq because division and multiplication operators are left-associative
 
can we write mathml in here?
 
so it is "from left to right"
 
Why are they left-associative?
 
1:51 PM
Because * and / have the same precedence.
@IliaJerebtsov Because they are.
 
Oh, one of those human things then.
 
Ha ha. Glad to see, that I'm not the only one who did not know
 
hmm that might explain why the calculator is wrong
 
@KendallFrey and because Kendall says so!
 
@IliaJerebtsov Yes.
 
1:52 PM
I've learned in high school that multiplication goes before division
 
And we all know anything I say here is a fact
 
(Dutch high school that is, which might explain a lot)
 
@Maverik Say you're lying.
 
I always lie
 
World asplode!
 
1:53 PM
It's funny how these things seem like immutable laws of nature, when really we just made them up to be like that.
 
yes now you've created a fallacy!
 
@IliaJerebtsov true story.
 
Math constantly blows my mind in how if you don't like something, you can just go and invent your own math.
 
Everything I say is fact - Kendal says Maverik lies so it must be so (because he says so) Maverik agrees - The fact that everything he says is a lie so is the fact that everything he says is a fact still a fact?
 
I'm so glad that I am not a B.Eng. who doesn't know about that sort of thing... </irony>
 
1:54 PM
Nature doesn't have a left to right. Nature uses the parsed representation.
 
We didn't make up the laws of nature, we found them. We convey them to each other as best as we understand them. The laws do not change, our understanding of them does.
 
How do we know that they don't change?
If they changed, wouldn't our understanding of them change to match?
 
Because if they did, nothing would work.
 
Unless that is how everything works.
 
@Billdr some day we'll figure out theres really no spoon!
 
1:55 PM
If 1+1 suddenly equaled 3, everything falls apart.
 
For all we know, the speed of light could be changing. We wouldn't notice, because the speed of time would change with it.
 
I think that @IliaJerebtsov meant something like "the rules of math" - not the "laws of nature"
 
@Billdr it won't
3 will merely start representing 2
 
But there is no 1 or 3. That's just something we made up in our heads.
 
3 is a meaningless symbol on its own as is 2 and any other symbol
 
1:56 PM
Nope, wrong.
 
@KendallFrey you are a heretic!
 
If the concept behind the number one plus the concept behind the number one equaled the concept behind the number three, nothing would work. Fucking pedants.
 
1 and 3 are numbers. Not something made up.
 
I'm warming up the stake
 
@Billdr lol ok now we're getting somewhere!
 
1:57 PM
There is no such thing as concepts outside of our collective consciousness.
All there is is matter.
And it's debatable what that actually is.
 
Nope, there are laws to hold it together.
 
@Billdr that's a really nice and concise explanation ;D
 
Nope, matter is energy.
 
Also time.
 
Okay. Let's go smoke a joint around a campfire while we experience the oneness.
 
1:57 PM
And space. And spacetime.
 
OMFG! Slippery slope of pseudo-debates :D
And we will all have to wait light years until we find out the true meaning of the universe
 
Oh, and even though 1+1/=3, the sum of the internal angles of a triangle can equal 360 degrees.
 
i already know it ]
 
@yas4891 now you know how productivity goes down when you hang out in this channel ;)
 
@yas4891 Light year is not a unit of time.
 
1:59 PM
@KendallFrey it might be in a universe where we have 1+1 = 3
 
@Maverik I do. And that's my meaning in life :D
@KendallFrey yes, I know. evil grin Let's debate this!
 
No, because a light year was invented by humans.
 
@KendallFrey if light year is distance and we know the speed of light, why can't it be unit of time?
 
a light year is still a year
 
actually lol yes! ^
sometimes i wish my brain could think simple!
 
2:02 PM
lol
 
We should just measure everything in Planck units.
 
Client request comes in to fix a typo on the webpage. Not specified is the location of the typo.
Agrh.
 
@IliaJerebtsov there! Right There! On my screen! It is still there
 
I am 10^35 tall.
 
I actually spent some time trying to make an UML diagram of reality.
 
2:04 PM
OMFG. that lmgtfy.com-cache link is effing funny
 
I had divided it between "external" and "internal", where external is stuff we perceive, and internal is stuff that exists in our head.
I ran into a snag when I realized that everything is internal.
 
heh
Waitasec. I'm in your head?
 
The concept of you is in my head.
 
You have no concept of me.
 
I have the concept of you as interpreted by your messages.
 
2:06 PM
The concept of me in your head is unnerving.
2
 
I assume that each user of this chatroom represents one human being. I might be wrong.
 
You are wrong.
 
It could be more than one human being. Or it could be a dog.
 
Kinected/OutlawLemur
 
definitely only one of me :)
 
2:07 PM
Nadal/Jeff Hodge
and probably more.
 
now go back, re-read those messages and replace all occurences of "you" with "jerk" :D
 
But somewhere I have to make an abstraction of an entity I can converse with.
 
@SpencerCole Haw!
 
2:08 PM
References!
 
Go talk to Cleverbot.
 
@KendallFrey I can make it say anything!
 
Arguing with a computer was never more fun.
 
@KendallFrey I wonder what would happen if one set up a woman to argue with cleverbot
both are always right by definition
 
Divide by zero error.
 
2:10 PM
@KendallFrey imgur.com/gAjVM
 
Ah, found the first draft.
 
Me: What do you think about Kendall Frey?
CB: He's dead.
Sorry to break it to you, @KendallFrey
 
@Billdr I can make it say that for realsies and we can call it accident, if that's what you're into.
 
lifeforce sugar lol
 
It actually did.
 
2:14 PM
It'd be cool if one day we found out that cleverbot is actually just a very lonely dude that sits there all day answering questions.
5
 
So I have a postcard I need to send for Reddit Gifts, but no postcard. I was just going to draw one.
What should I draw on it?
 
4000 people talking? Lonely? Not likely. Just very, very antisocial.
 
Holy crap spaces suck.
 
URL incompetence.
Or maybe incontinence.
 
My url can't control it's bowel movements?
 
2:19 PM
No, you can't.
 
And here we are. Back to the weird conversations.
 
Banana broken rocking chair.
 
I have a php class that I converted to a library file using phalanger. I have added that dll as a resource into my project but how do I access/use it now?
 
Presumably the same way as any other library?
You can look for it in the object browser to see what classes it exposes.
 
2:28 PM
i do that and all i see is base types>object
so it just has the basic inherited stuff of object. toString, Equals, etc..
I dont see the public methods of the php class
 
I think you have to add [Export] attributes.
 
thanks ill re-read this. I must have skimmed over some parts to fast
 
And generally seems like a lot of work.
 
This is off topic, but still about coding and looks really cool: geolocation with node.js and javascript
 
where are the stored procedures saved? which directory I can find the files?
 
2:37 PM
Which ones? In a SQL database?
 
They're in the database.
 
@KendallFrey is there a way I can copy those files ?
 
they're in the INFORMATION_SCHEMA.ROUTINES table
 
Manually?
 
@KendallFrey yes
 
2:38 PM
If you want to make SQL files, then copy it manually.
 
@KendallFrey too much files.. =/
 
If you're using management studio, the generate scripts option should let you export them all into one file.
 
I love it when you look for something using google, and find a 4 year old answer on SO, and it still works perfectly.
Upvotes for answers that stand the test of time.
 
That's nearly as old as SO itself.
 
I'm sorry, it was 3 years ago, and yeah, That's pretty old.
 

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