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2:04 PM
So you can write some horrible SQL query, full of joins and whatnot, as a view definition, then when someone does select * from my_view it will run that horrible query to populate the view and show you the results
Then you can do select * from my_view where bob=1, etc. So it can simplify the use of certain complex queries, as you can just access the query results as though you're querying a normal table
 
Ah I see.
So a Post has post_type_id which is 1 or 2, for Q or A, respectively.
So I could build a Question view which always has post_type_id=1.
 
So you could do a view called questions, which could be select * from posts where post_type_id = 1
Yeah
 
Are these views SQLAlchemy objects or something else? Couldn't find much via a brief Google (though it was brief)
 
No, it's in the DB
I don't know how you'd get views working with SQLA
 
OIC
Eh. I'll leave it using pure Post for now.
 
All I want to do is load the data from my xml and throw it into postgres.
 
Doesn't look hard though, based on that post.
 
should read "Gödel, Escher, Bach"
 
@poke (had to go tend to sick gf, sorry for delay) Maybe this will sound like me trying to move goalposts, but I do consider it an implementation detail. Perhaps it's an implementation detail in database theory, but it's incontrovertible to me that there is no natural ordering of e.g. {"book", "member", "loan_date", "return_date"}
 
@Ffisegydd it really again depends on how the ID's are generated...
 
2:17 PM
(except coincidentally re: the dates)
 
@ZeroPiraeus what are we arguing about?
 
Ehh ... good question ;-) I'll drop it..
 
the db tuples are tuples though they are unordered
tuple n is so that you have n_1, n_2, n_3 etc... to n_n
except now we index them by the names instead :D
 
@ZeroPiraeus If I define a table schema with the attributes (Name, Type, Salad), and I get a result tuple ("Foo", "Bar", "Cabbage"), then the order does matter.
 
see, the point about ordinary ordered tuples is that the ordering is again arbitrary.
 
2:20 PM
Seriously, I'm prepared to drop it, but if you keep coming back ... I have database theory people telling me that relations are definitely unordered tuples (which is a contradiction in terms IMO), and also that they're definitely ordered and that's definitely fundamental to their nature.
 
You can't access the data without a statement, and the statement orders the columns though.
Like, the only time column order should come up is Select *.

And you only Select * for debugging.
 
@poke Now that's an implementation detail :-D
 
@ZeroPiraeus It’s pure theory.
 
@ZeroPiraeus that we agree on
 
Tuple calculus theory.
It’s incredibly mathematically, and you don’t want to argue with mathematics, do you? ;P
 
2:22 PM
@poke Of course it isn't pure theory! I could easily work things so that you get the result {"Name": "Foo", "Type": "Bar", "Salad": "Cabbage"}. That's a straight-up implementation choice.
 
@ZeroPiraeus you confuse the tuple order with something that it isn't
tuple order has nothing to do with things like list order
 
Ohh.. primary voting begins in less than 5 hours - that's gone quickly
 
@Zero I disagree. At some point you have to stop calling something “implementation” otherwise you will have to start with algebra als your implementation detail.
 
@poke what we mean is that tuples can be named without ordering
 
Ah, so now we're redefining the word "order" as well as "tuple", are we? Stands to reason – nowhere in real life does the word "relation" mean anything close to what database theorists say it does ;-P
 
2:25 PM
@JonClements I listened to a debate for that. As an american, it was surreal to hear politicians accusing each other of wanting to reduce spending.
 
named tuples to ordered tuples are like args to kwargs.
to say that kwargs are not arguments is like ... :D
 
def map_tuple(func, tup):
    """Applies func to each element of tup and returns a new tuple.

	>>> a = (1, 2, 3, 4)
	>>> func = lambda x: x * x
	>>> map_tuple(func, a)
	(1, 4, 9, 16)
	"""
    length = len(tup)
    count = 0
    new_tuple = ()
    while count < length:
        new_tuple = new_tuple +	 (func(tup[count]))
        count = count + 1
    return new_tuple
 
Not as much Parliamentary chaos and shoe-throwing as I was hoping for though.
 
@poke Databases model the real world. I assert that in the real world, the attributes of things are not ordered.
 
I see this error: TypeError: can only concatenate tuple (not "int") to tuple for the above program
Can't I do (1, 2, 3) + (func(tup[count]),)
 
2:27 PM
(1,)
 
@QuestionC depends what it's on. It's bizarre to have a blanket idea that reducing spending is always good.
 
@overexchange closing this as duplicate of Python tutorial, section 5.3: docs.python.org/3/tutorial/…
 
"We're reducing spending on road maintenance. Incidentally, I now have shares in every car company that makes an SUV, because you're going to need one."
 
@RobertGrant SA?
 
2:29 PM
It's just the phrase, "Reduce Spending" rings patriotic and true in American ears. Even if meaningfully identical phrases like "Cut Social Security" are spooky and terrifying.
 
@RobertGrant there is now a mantra before general elections that
the public sector spending is "60 % of GDP"
in Finland
of course what is not told there is that the private sector spending is 240 % of GDP
 
That's a lot of percents.
 
@AnttiHaapala no, just an example. Inspired by real SA events :)
 
@overexchange Yes you can, but you shouldn't. Also, you forgot the comma in your 1-element tuple in the original code block.
 
they have nothing to do with anything
 
2:32 PM
Economists really know how to give it their all.
 
so ppl can be told numbers like "60 % is the public sector spending, oh noes, we're left with only 40 %"
 
@PM2Ring I shouldn't? what is the approach?
 
the same as "our programming division uses 60 % of our profit"
 
You shouldn't build tuples (or strings) in a loop by concatenation: it's very inefficient. They're immutable so a new tuple (or string) has to get created every time you add a new member.
 
OMG SO MUCH?
 
2:34 PM
You could fix that code to work, but maybe you should just build it as a list and then convert the list to a tuple at the end?

Tuples aren't really meant for appending.
 
The normal approach is to use a list & then convert the list to the tuple.
 
"And the marketing uses 240 % of our profit"
nope
it depends :D
 
am yet to learn list(mutable) as part of the course
 
Or if you want to build a string, build it as a list and then call ''.join()on the list.
 
@overexchange in python you'd do:
return tuple(map(func, tuple))
everything else is a pretension
ofc anyone would need to be able to write the program as above, but also anyone writing that kind of program ought to be slapped :D
 
2:36 PM
@AnttiHaapala I think the point of comparing things to GDP is that it lets you scale comparisons to other countries. Like, if you were to compare America and Australia's health care spending it has to be a percent of something.
 
yes but it really does not say anything
even GDP does not say anything
 
So Hippiestan has 60% govt spending as a percent by GDP, while USA is 40%. Let's us compare.
 
yes, it depends on what services the hippiestan govt provides
 
@JRichardSnape commented in your answer, thank so much for your help!
 
btw, in finland the public and private healthcare spending / gdp was lower than the public health care spending in USA
and half of public + private spending in USA
 
2:40 PM
Nah. What doesn't say anything is what we had before GDP... which was nothing. The concept was invented in response to the great depression because it seemed like we were just walking around in the dark.

Maybe GDP isn't sufficiently *nuanced* for modern economics (I have no idea), but it's not without value.
People talk about it on the radio, so I assume it's a big deal.
 
"Non-market transactions – GDP excludes activities that are not provided through the market, such as household production and volunteer or unpaid services."
Underground economy– official GDP estimates may not take into account the underground economy, in which transactions contributing to production, such as illegal trade and tax-avoiding activities, are unreported, causing GDP to be underestimated
 
@AnttiHaapala there's that thing on the West Wing that private health insurance has an admin overhead of 25%, and medicare is 3%.
 
@overexchange You've learned about tuples but not lists? That's weird!
 
Quality improvements and inclusion of new products– by not adjusting for quality improvements and new products, GDP understates true economic growth. For instance, although computers today are less expensive and more powerful than computers from the past, GDP treats them as the same products by only accounting for the monetary value
 
Yeah also cars now have airbags etc.
 
2:43 PM
@PM2Ring he is learning python from SICP
 
@PM2Ring thisis the syllabus www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs61a/fa12
 
That's the thing you do to stop being commoditised.
 
@PM2Ring which is why I suggested a long time ago that maybe OE should switch schools :D
"GDP counts work that produces no net change or that results from repairing harm. For example, rebuilding after a natural disaster or war may produce a considerable amount of economic activity and thus boost GDP."
^ this, one sure way to boost gdp growth is to start some wars :D
 
@AnttiHaapala am not learning python from SICP, python is one tool that we are using in sicp. we also use scheme
 
I just do not understand why do you take sicp so literally there? :d
for python
"Before SICP, the introductory courses were almost always filled with learning the details of some programming language, while SICP focuses on finding general patterns from specific problems and building software tools that embody each pattern"
yet you are programming scheme in every programming language :D
in my opinion what goes within 1 function is its own problem...
 
2:48 PM
@overexchange Ok. I guess there's at the theoretical level there's some logic to learning about immutable sequences (tuples & strings) before you start playing with lists. But practically speaking, Python without lists is somewhat inefficient. And as I said earlier today:
stackoverflow.com/questions/29591125/… IMHO Python without lists is like skiing with one arm tied behind your back - possible, but awkward. :)
 
If you're only using tuples you shouldn't be able to cheat by appending to them though.
 
@AnttiHaapala That's a common pattern with Lisp people - they don't adapt to other languages, they just write Lisp in them.
 
@AnttiHaapala am learning SICP to learn building abstractions
 
Go full lisp baby.

(1, (2, (3, (4) ) ) )
 
@overexchange then build an abstraction
def map_tuple(func, tup):
    return tuple(map(func, tup))
there your abstraction
you can write it that way or your way
 
2:51 PM
3. Fill in the definition of map_tuple. map_tuple takes in a function and a tuple as arguments and applies the function to each element of the tuple.
def map_tuple(func, tup):
 
why would you want to use the least possible amount of other abstractions
thats what I did
another one would be:
 
Trick question. map already exists in Python and works on tuples. so all you need is map_tuple = map.
 
def map_tuple(func, tup):
    return tuple(func(i) for i in tup)
@Kevin but it does not return a tuple
 
double trick question, it never specified what the return type should be :-D
 
@Kevin obviously 3. is not all there is to it
 
2:54 PM
@Kevin's above!
 
@QuestionC I already learnt that representation of tuple (1,(2, None))
 
Makes no sense, but thought it was funny. Which probably means it's home time.
Rbrb :)
 
Ok, I'll stop interfering with my trollish answers. Please proceed :-)
 
def map_tuple(func, tup):
     rv = []
     for i in tup:
          rv.append(i)
     return tuple(rv)
these all are abstractions, I abstracted your map tuple away, though my code is better for Python
 
@overexchange I really hope the purpose of this assignment is "Learn why Tuples suck for this before we let you use lists"
 
2:56 PM
exactly
 
@QuestionC it is about "how to write slow programs in python"
 
@overexchange: antti's 2nd example is doing what I said earlier: building a list & then converting it to a tuple. His previous example is better, but it uses a generator expression, which you might not have learned about yet.
 
scheme lists work differently from python tuples
python tuples are generalization of lisp pair
 
@QuestionC As I said earlier, there's some logic to learning tuples before lists - lists can do unexpected things, due to mutability. So it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot if you're restricted to tuples. :)
 
Cabbage
 
2:59 PM
cbg, 4theye
 
cabbage everybody and others
 
cbg, XavierCombelle. Your avatar reminded me: do you know about this recently-discovered 3 glider collision that produces a switch engine: conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13988#p13988 ?
 
@PM2Ring I looked at conwaylife.com/wiki/Switch_engine and I have hard time to understand what a switch engine is.
 
A switch engine can create infinite growth. In its natural state it self-destructs, but there are various ways to stabilize it, eg the block-laying switch engine and the glider-producing switch engine
Those GIFs show the engines after they've already made a bunch of stuff, but their starting configs are much simpler, eg this is one way to stabilize the basic switch engine with a single block to create a glider-producing switch engine:
 
3:17 PM
@AnttiHaapala In this code why I do not require nonlocal keyword
def map_tuple_recursive(func, tup):
    """Applies func to each element of tup and returns a new tuple.

	>>> a = (1, 2, 3, 4)
	>>> func = lambda x: x * x
	>>> map_tuple(func, a)
	(1, 4, 9, 16)
	"""
    length = len(tup)
    def new_tuple(count):
        if count == length:
            return ()
        else:
	        return (func(tup[count]), ) + new_tuple(count + 1)
    return new_tuple(0)
 
@PM2Ring my mind is blowing
 
I'm not an expert on Life theory, but I've spent a fair bit of time building fancy patterns from components that other people have discovered / invented.
 
@overexchange why do you think you need it? Where would you expect to use it?
 
@overexchange Generally speaking, you only need nonlocal if you are assigning to the name in the inner context. You don't need it if you're just accessing
Same for global.
 
7 hours ago, by overexchange
>>> def min_element(tup):
	""" Returns the minimum element in tup.
        >>> a = (1, 2, 3, 2, 1)
        >>> min_element(a)
        1
        """
	length = len(tup)
	def find_min(count):
		if count == length:
			return min
		else:
			min = tup[count] if min > tup[count] else min
			return min
	if length > 0:
		min = tup[0]
		return find_min(1)
	else:
		return None
 
3:20 PM
That's some funky formatting.
 
look, you're reading min before it's assigned to in the inner function in that one
pretend the outer function didn't exist, the inner code would then make zero sense
 
FWIW, here's my avatar on the conwaylife forum:
 
@overexchange looks like you are doing recursion for fun
 
"fun"
 
@XavierCombelle yes
 
3:23 PM
@PM2Ring this is nice
 
am very week in recursion
 
I don't get what you're confused about.
 
The difference between your 7 hours ago code and your five minutes ago code is, you need nonlocal min because you're doing min = in the inner context; and you don't need nonlocal length because you're not doing length = in the inner context.
 
ok
@Kevin you say "am doing min =" but the error is local variable 'min' referenced before assignment
 
Yeah, that's the error you usually get when you forget nonlocal.
 
3:25 PM
If you assign to a variable, it is considered local to the scope. Scopes are established before running the function. So when you then try to return min, you haven't assigned a value to that local variable yet.
By declaring nonlocal or global, you tell it that even though you're assigning in this scope, it's actually defined higher up.
 
Oh you mean, by chance if I had assigned min before I define find_min() then I would not get in to these issues
 
no, you would still get the errors
 
umm.... anyone happy to know the 3rd and 5th letter of my memorable word that I can't remember?
 
You either declare something nonlocal or global, or you don't assign to it in that scope.
 
But the error is local variable 'min' referenced
 
3:28 PM
you're just going in circles now
min is a local variable because you assigned to it in that scope without declaring it nonlocal or global
it doesn't matter when you assigned to it, just where
 
ah I got it
I got you
Antti explained me the same in the morning but could not get this
I need to perform this goal, what is the approach?
>>> X = (1, 2)
>>> Y = (4, 5)
>>> cartesian_product(X, Y)
((1, 4), (4, 1) (1, 5), (5, 1), (2, 4), (4, 2) (2, 5), (5, 2))
@XavierCombelle am working on recursion whenever I get chance because before I get into tree and graph data models or complex game algo that work on recursion I need to be comfortable
 
Hi. I'm a newbie python developer. I need to talk about formatting and indenting code. Anyone interested?
 
@Ajoy Probably best to fire away - have a look at rule 1. in the "Asking questions" room rules... sopython.com/chatroom
 
Many times I come across situations when I have to format multi-line dicts that have variable length keys and values.
Right @JRichardSnape.
 
@overexchange: Also, don't use min as a variable name: it's the name of a built-in function, so using it as a variable name "shadows" the function: it makes the min() function inaccessible in that scope. And it's confusing (and annoying) to anyone else reading your code.
 
3:40 PM
ok
@PM2Ring Can you help me find approach for the above problem?
 
what is a "multiline dict" ? well perhaps best not to get side tracked and finish telling what your problem is ...
 
If you're using a decent editor with syntax highlighting it should be obvious when you use a keyword or built-in for your your own variables.
 
@Ajoy OK - I'm "listening" (i.e. watching). What's the problem you have? When you say format - do you mean you have to print them prettily, or in your code?
 
@overexchange Whoever wrote the tutorial you're following must be confused. When you take the cartesian product of two sequences each with length 2, the result should be four items long, not eight.
They're making the exercise a lot more complicated by requiring both (1,4) and (4,1)
#Otherwise, you could do it in three lines.
for x_item in X:
    for y_item in Y:
        yield (x_item, y_item)
 
3:45 PM
@overexchange Sorry, I haven't been following it closely, and it's getting very late here. But my first advice: Avoid recursion when simple looping can do the job. Use recursion when it's appropriate to the problem domain, like traversing a recursively-defined structure, eg a tree. Some languages encourage use of recursion, but Python isn't such a language.
 
Suppose I have a dictionary, a = {'id': 1, 'name': 'Employee Aa'}

@JRichardSnape Yes. That's right. I want to write them legibly in my code
 
@Kevin please do not write the solution
 
@JRichardSnape Let me show you some samples. In a minute!
 
cbg
 
3:46 PM
@overexchange That's not the solution.
 
Feels nice to start the day with a cv :D
 
@Ajoy In which case, does this question help? stackoverflow.com/questions/6388187/…
 
@JRichardSnape Nope!
@JRichardSnape Consider this:
{
'id': user.id,
'email': user.email,
'fullname': user.fullname,
'phone': user.phone,
'img': user.img,
'is_active': user.is_active
}
 
@overexchange so try with a tree or data graph model or game algo or whatever fit well with recursion but not a toy project (a good try is to insert/find a value in a binary search tree) that will certainly help you understand better than find the min of a tuple
 
@Ajoy Is it the variable length that bothers you?
 
3:52 PM
@Ajoy looks like you repeat your self a lot please stop to repeat your self
 
@JRichardSnape I format it like this
 
@BhargavRao I think it's the format in the code, rather than printing out that @Ajoy is worried about.
 
@JRichardSnape Aha! I want to write them legibly in my code Twas a little ambiguous. Sry
 
3:54 PM
@XavierCombelle @BhargavRao I might not have been clear before. But what troubles me is whether I should leave the code as it is or add spaces to align the colons!
 
I guess it's ok to use recursion on things like finding the min of a tuple, as a learning exercise in recursion. But it can also be confusing. And it could teach you bad habits in practical Python programming. :)
 
@Ajoy Don't align the colons, per PEP8
 
@Ajoy please read PEP-8
 
@Ajoy I mean stop repeat yourself in the code: you could replace it by something like `{k:user.__dict__[key] for key in "id email fullname phone img is_active".split()}
 
Relevant section is here
More than one space around an assignment (or other) operator to align it with another.

Yes:

x = 1
y = 2
long_variable = 3
No:

x             = 1
y             = 2
long_variable = 3
 
3:56 PM
@Ajoy I'm going to have to bow out. I don't think there's a rule. A certain Python Ninja left it formatted with no alignment in a PEP-8 answer, so... stackoverflow.com/a/24247706/838992
Besides, others more familiar with PEP-8 than I are now in the mix...
 
What @Ajoy posted looks weird. What ninja posted looks good. End of story.
 
looks around .... backs slowly back out of the room making holding wooden stake
 
That was easy!
 
Evening
If a question is already answered - and I would put a bounty on it, would that answer get the bounty if it doesn't get answered anymore?
 
See stackoverflow.com/help/bounty "How is a bounty awarded?" at the bottom
> If you do not award your bounty within 7 days (plus the grace period), the highest voted answer created after the bounty started with a minimum score of 2 will be awarded half the bounty amount.
 
4:01 PM
Even if that answer is wrong?
 
That quote means that the existing answer would not get it unless you assigned it.
 
The system has no idea if the answer is right or wrong, just if it's upvoted or downvoted.
 
@paul23 where do you want to give a bounty ?
 
@paul23 Notice "created after the bounty started"...
 
That's great! I have only recently started following guidelines. Most of my code conforms to the general guidelines, but this was the tricky part. I was meaning to post a question on SO, but thought I'd ask here first. I have my answer now.

No matter how odd it might look, no extra spaces for alignment. Thanks @AdamSmith, @davidism, @JRichardSnape
 
4:02 PM
Umm.... can't get my memorable word reset on the phone without - guess what - identifying by providing two letters from the memorable word... this wasn't amusing to start with - even less so now...
 
@JRichardSnape ah I see now - read over that word ('after') thrice
@XavierCombelle not sure yet, I'm googling other forums too still but stackoverflow.com/questions/29458589/… I kind of need an answer for
considering manually calculating the spline (instead of numpy's C library doing it) is too slow. Yet without the ability to get the numbers I can't do anything with it.
 
@XavierCombelle Sadly, I have to manage that code. I have just begun. Just give me some time. I am getting better at python each day!
 
However it is already answered, so few people look into it. But the answer is answering a complete different problem
 
@paul23 Sounds like a good reason to offer a bounty
Good luck :)
 
hmm waiting for the scipy mailing list first though
 
4:08 PM
@JonClements Here are the most common pairs of letters for the third and fifth letters of each English word.
tr 2537
ne 2303
ri 2024
re 2016
pr 1860
ae 1767
se 1746
si 1648
oe 1614
ai 1533
Maybe you'll luck out and it's one of these :-)
 
Worst is: I probably need it to work on 128bit floats
 
Fun fact. The least common pair is "eq", appearing only in "ovErQualified"
Tied with "lifeful" and "sejeant" and "beaux", but none of those look real to me
 
@Kevin thanks :)
 
Did it...did it work!?
 
@paul23 Must you do this with cubic splines? Or would you be happy with another integration method?
 
4:11 PM
I suspect that it didn't, and that the question changes every time just so it's hard to enumerate all possibilities this way. It probably went from "third and fifth letter" to e.g. "second and eighth letter" long ago.
 
Well no I need cubic splines, as I wish to compare those to linear and quadratic splines
 
mpmath can do integration, and mpmath supports arbitrary precision arithmetic.
Ah. Fair enough
 
I am looking for what the difference inthose methods for my tests (doing some validation tests) will give
And if I can determine an "algorithm" or "scheme" to find the best interpolation method
For now I do not want regression analysis though
(Yes those will probably be better with real world data considering a small error)
But this is for analysis of mathematical functions which can't be solved algebraically
 
@paul23 moreover only answers with at least +2 votes are available for bounty
 
c-b-g
@davidism you still were talking with OE about the nonlocal case
 
4:21 PM
CBG, Antti
 
@AnttiHaapala yeah, I saw your earlier conversation too :-/
I guess it was just a matter of finding the right way to phrase the answer.
 
rhubarb
 
@vaultah WRONG
it is not duplicate of that
nominated for reopen but it didn't have python tag origianlly :(
You cannot make up bytes like this. Maybe you'd want to use `struct.pack` instead, with values as integers:

COMMAND = 0x42
OBJECT = 0x55
SERDATA = struct.pack('=BB', COMMAND, OBJECT)

----

Using Python 3, and bytes, everything would be even easier:

COMMAND = 0x42
OBJECT = 0x55
SERDATA = bytes([COMMAND, OBJECT])
this is my answer to the question op asks
 
@AnttiHaapala Add a [reopen-pls] here then
:D
 
@AnttiHaapala done.
 
Eyes are weird :/
 
The man with the golden hammer has finally done it \o/
:)
 
Vote for me in the election and I can do that to any post. :-P
 
hmmhm
:P @m
@MartijnPieters goes without sayin
 
4:32 PM
@MartijnPieters AAARGH MARTIJN! Should you even ask that?
It is understood
 
someday I will learn how to python :\
 
But I never knew that Martijn would have haters. :(
 
@BhargavRao the especially good guys have haters (generally the especially bad guys)
 
@BhargavRao I have 1 or 2, apparently.
 
what is the unicode-escape codec for str
 
4:37 PM
pokemon must be popular with python professors
cbg all
 
That's the price of being active and trying to keep the place clean though, you cannot please everyone.
 
Normal haters - OK, but that comment was a little too much
IYKWIM
@MartijnPieters I guess they don't understand that you are trying to help them out
That's the sad part
 
ah answer done
 
I hate my prof
providing excersize (excersice?) examns about image processing.. But no solutions at all. And refusing to give help.
On the questions
 
4:45 PM
@BhargavRao ?
 
Once you get 3k rep, you will be able to cv a.k.a close vote bad questions.
So whenever ya see [cv-pls] you gotta close that if you agree with the vote
Some room members also use a script to detect [cv-pls]
 
its also helpful when your below 3k as you can look at the questions as examples of what to flag
 
Thus - Get to 3k soon and help us keep Stack Overflow Clean
 
No need to explain anymore, just link to our wiki.
 
4:47 PM
meh don't think linking here to ask for others to look tat close votes is really moral
 
Oh yeah! I had bookmarked that
 
It's like meeting and saying "let's team up to hit him for being stupid" after school.
 
That seems like an unfair comparison, because hitting stupid people is wrong even if you do it individually.
 
That's exactly what it's like.
 
Compare to "let's team up to retrieve our lunch money from the bully after school"
 
4:51 PM
It's more like "Let's team up to help pick up the rubbish that other people have left in our shared space."
 
@Kevin Close voting - and especially the downvotes that come with it - often happens to new people. Those don't make mistakes on purpose, but by accident.
 
@paul23 to be able to ask questions they have to read and agree to the rules.
 
I think it's important to understand that a close vote is not a punishment.
 
If they decide to ignore the things they agree to, then they have no one to blame but themselves really.
 
@Kevin A downvote is.
 
4:52 PM
Sure, I'll agree to that.
 
But not working !? How? Thank you bye
 
I actually disagree a downvote is a "punishment".
 
And posting such a question here is always leading to something similar to the "meta effect"
 
Personally, when I see a cv-pls, I only vote to close, I don't downvote.
 
@Ffisegydd You can assign less bounties, or lose other perks with the reduction in points.
 
4:53 PM
I vote to downvote if the post is worthy of being downvoted.
 
@Kevin personally != everyone :P - and just that is my reservation
With posting links here (or on the meta) by anyone but the question owner
That happened dozens of times to me: my question was getting downvotes for "not sure what is being asked here". And then I go to the SO meta site -as I'm not english expressing myself is quiet difficult at times- to ask for advice how to improve the question, only to get many more downvotes.
SO is very very unforgiving to those who have difficulty with the english language, and for whom reading a manual is actually a literal nightmare (all words start jumbling around if I read etc).
 
Yeah, pretty much.
 
SO is very very unforgiving to those who have difficulty with the english language - No it's not
 
Even I come from a non-English background
Stack Overflow taught me English
So now I am ready for TOEFL
:D
 
I'm dyslexic, so anyone who tells me "read the C++ standard" and then downvotes is quite arrogant to me.
 
4:59 PM
I have difficulty with english (cause of a medical condition) and I've never been called out when it causes problems in my posts
 

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