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12:00 AM
And ownership keeps firing the general manager (the dugout guy that runs strategy).
 
OK, lost me again
but it's OK, it's past 2AM here
 
Ok Andras we can't vote python anymore. We gotta move to java
has been healed of its boils
 
has it?
he ain't pretty still
 
yeah that little campaign took a gouge
But java and deep and hurting
 
sure
 
12:04 AM
I mean deep and hurting us all because of the hidden numbers in it. On the high end we are fine cv 3,4
One the crap end, it is part of the huge base of numbers hurting us
 
you mean there are hordes of ghastly cv2 rotting away?
 
check out the hive daily summaries for python and java
 
OK, though I always have problems comprehending those
 
JS would make em pale prolly ... we dont go there
 
I'm not good at list comprehensions *ba-dum tsss*
 
12:06 AM
But there are certain things that make up that 9K cv review queue
 
so what exactly are "outstanding close votes"? those that have been cast?
 
I will save ya'll the suspense. We are not doing this outside of bots or some other major reform. Like close mods. Something David from GMT / R hints at
 
?
lost me again
 
@Drew That's completely by design. Open the link in incognito. The info is there. I'd assume it's for transparency.
 
thx hi
 
12:10 AM
hi. :)
 
Andras we don't have that Drone Army. We care about this stuff. The masses don't. We are not enabled to close stuff
 
so...you're saying we're not facelifting java after all?:D
 
It takes 5 grown (wo)men days. We need a dozen close mods to roam and close
 
@AndrasDeak Hell, there are hordes of cv4 rotting away...
 
I am saying, not getting your reference so much, that this is a battle
 
12:12 AM
Not in Java anymore, though.
 
The rules laid down. We can't win that battle with these teenie little pee-shooters given
 
oh, I never said anything about battle
ghastly hordes are abundant in nature too, probably:P
 
If this isn't a battle what are we doing here?
 
mowing the lawn
 
Is this a Tupperware party
 
12:14 AM
except it's not lawn but a jungle, and instead of machetes we have manicure scissors
but at least we're kept occupied:P
 
Let's resolve all to not vtc anything for 20 days
 
idle hands are the devil's playthings or something:D
 
It is a battle. And we are not going to win. People see more close votes as a way to say "great let others do more"
I can call out names but the people we drove to do stuff did nothing
And they were the curators of those tags
 
@Mogsdad I've noticed you've started reviewing! I'll update your session record.
Mogsdad passed an audit!
 
well, if people could be forced to moderate, the queue wouldn't be this big to begin with
the increased throughput is only as effective as the small fraction of users that participate in the whole thing
 
12:18 AM
So we need "close mods" ... ask David A from GMT / R for a description of that robot form
 
robot form?
 
I would be happy to be one of 12 of them. I would also be happy not to
 
I'm aware of your close mod concept, not any robots involved
 
David can spell it out well. We lose people like David all the time. For what.
Ad impressions?
 
@Drew History time...
160
Q: Close Votes review: I'm going on a strike!

ShaiI know this question is going to make me unpopular here – but I feel I have no other options. I have been concerned by the size of the close votes review queue for quite a while. When I started reviewing (less than a year ago) this queue already had ~30K questions pending review. Time passes an...

 
12:20 AM
How about this, nothing gets closes unless 24 hours elapses with no correction from OP
a stalemate for 24 hours. Then they close
the close mods close the stuff. Maybe cap them at 150 a day. 1 vote
 
@Drew as I said, I'm aware of your close mod concept
so what's with robots?
 
It was a fun reference don't fixate on it :p
We cannot close stuff. They know it. We have this fragile money balance going on. OPs need to be treated well (money ad impressions) ... and junk needs to be closed. Let's find a solution that can solve this.
 
Anyone here with a java hammer?
 
Like 1 vote from a "close mod" after elapsed time (1 day)
Because that is all the close mods do. They close stuff. Not on some spree. Shog can choose them. We need fair and balanced people to close the crap
Because there is no effective "community moderation" going on. We are grownups and let's admit it
 
there is community moderation going on, but from such an irrelevant subset of the community that it doesn't change a rat's ass
and I know that's not a proper use of an idiom:P
and it might not even be an idiom
but you catch my drift
 
12:28 AM
They don't need all the full privileges of elected mods. They don't need unlimited. They need to lessen the grief and burden of this site. We need a dozen of them...them "close mods"
They close stuff on a single vote. For example, let Batman have it, let Mogz have it. Let Tuna have it. Maybe limit to 150 a day. Let Tusha and others have it. Gear it so that there is some waiting period and respect to the OP so there is time (maybe)
 
Mogsdad passed a audit!
 
We cannot lose sight of the fact that this is an organization that needs to make money. All these toys our TCP packets hit. People need to feel welcome. But to expect community moderation to be effective here is a joke as it stands right now.
That is why any initiative to expand community help is going to fail. It is simple Psychology 101 and "you do it"
I can vote less because you can vote more.
Thank you, I will watch Netflix while you guys take on more. Ergo: we need close mods
 
sure
 
SO is a business. As much as geekie twats want to clean stuff, there are bills to pay (read: don't close stuff too fast, Welcome people)
We can solve this together if we have that discussion.
 
I'm not sure
at least 80% of questions on SO should never have been asked
if you remove that, you remove the same amount of income
 
12:41 AM
Andras we need to respect the OP and welcome them. It is a business that plays for profits
 
I know, not exactly, but my point is that the business aspect and the crap-closing aspect are inherently at conflict
 
And it is that business that you/we/I am asking for expanded rights
 
I know, but I'm saying that I'd be surprised if you or anybody else got that
 
and they will never let any of us run roughshog over it after millions of bucks of investment and potential
well we are about to give up. And their bots can run mod
Their little test from meta and from blue. Read through it.
The test is that community moderation fails
So we show the OP respect, thru comments, a grace period, and we close
 
12:45 AM
They don't go running off biatching about SO as an uncaring world
 
bitching's guaranteed, no matter what
 
We we do care. We do read their question. Some of them happen to be rather crappy
But a close mod does not slam. she comments, gives it time, then slams. One day later
We are losing the solution providers here Andras
 
the whos?
 
We continually lose the people that solve problems
when I google "python rdd fault 122" I expect to end up on SO
 
ah, I see
but we have a bunch of rep whores in return
it's something, right?
 
12:52 AM
Not some random random blog, but I want it to come back here
The people that add that worth of knowlege are being let down right now
Those people are being inundated with ill-conceived questions that lower the standard.
They get frustrated, and they leave.
So, we need a healthy balance, and I said it pages above
 
I read it, but I don't think it exists
healthy is different to SO and to you or me
 
@Drew I've tossed a similar idea around for a while
Agree that the idea of "a few people with superpowers" isn't really scaling well
The problem you run into is... how do you choose these almost-mods?
 
How about if Shog chooses them
 
If moderators or SE staff choose them, you'll have a revolt on meta.
If we run elections for them, that's a lot of overhead.
 
Alright, Undo, I scale it back, 75 a day. A dozen people chosen by Shog.
 
12:59 AM
@SmokeDetector Edited
 
@Drew oh, I don't have any issues with letting a few trusted folks close unlimited questions a day. The problem is in handing out those privileges.
 
Here is an idea. A 30 day rotation.
 
Rob
I can't imagine you'd need more than one or two people to do it. I mean, yeah, right now, the queue is huge. But it'll slowly drop
 
@Drew How do you choose who's in the rotation?
 
Shog does it
 
1:00 AM
I think it might work if you just take a few runners-up from elections
 
Like the 60 questions I posted in the hive for python. Like the 250 I have for Java. They just ice the bad stuff
@rob the queue is huge
 
If you start giving out privileges on an appointment basis on SO, I'm pretty sure you're going to have really angry people.
@Drew link? I'm feeling up to closing some crap.
 
yeah well they rotate
lower left side. Pre-chosen
 
you mean this :P
 
Somehow I trust Shog's judgment
 
1:03 AM
you do, I do, most of us do
 
I do too, but meta doesn't
 
but you know how diverse the people are
 
Yeah right meta loves Shog
 
well, meta probably does as a whole, but the individual people who don't get picked are going to be pretty ticked.
 
1:04 AM
yeah well it gets rotated.
 
@Drew Among who?
 
These people chosen will have worked this site for half a decade
This is about the site, not any one individual.
Oh, I go off interviewing, I was one of 10 for May of 2016. Big deal. People need to get a grip
btw I want them to be available. Not that I expect to be in the race
It is about the site quality, not me
 
Sure, but some people don't think that way
 
Undo, I have a huge list of java and I don't know whether or not to approach TheLostMind about it
That is a sorry day
The day that I feel I encoumber them
Because they are off chasing spammer or cross network or whatever you do
That site quality no longer matters and is a burden to them
 
@Drew No reason not to ping @TheLostMind.
also, closed a bunch of things from that list
 
1:17 AM
You have to really dislike something to make an account just to paste a lame rant. stackoverflow.com/a/36489570/1677912
 
@undo thanks. Some of us work lists. Like @Rob and I. We can help facilitate closing of large swatches of things at once. Yet we are told to not ping mods
TheLostMind has quite a list to work thru.
 
@Drew if you've got a list of things that are fairly clear, feel free to ping me
 
@Drew Sometimes I feel like you are the "drug dealer" from SO :P Giving out packs full of CV-posts, which you can go through.
 
thanks
 
Not, like, for every little thing, but I don't mind working through lists occasionally.
 
1:21 AM
Like, once a week, here is a hundred
 
@Drew If they're fairly clear and easy for my poor brain to process.
 
These are the dumb ones Undo
I don't even program in these languages
 
heh
 
I don't even know how to indent in python
 
Rob
Well honestly, not seeing a huge amount of usage of the site - and it's not exactly cheap. So I might end up taking it offline, but will keep the code around for anyone interested
Will see how it goes, I suppose.
 
1:25 AM
@Rob What site?
 
what ya mean Rob?
 
Rob
@Undo It's basically a tool for people to query closeable questions. Essentially a 'liver' version of SEDE soclosevotetrackerui.azurewebsites.net - Quite similar to Drew's tool, but you do the filtering yourself (and questions are not prescreened)
Though as a mod I would imagine it doesn't really reveal much more (if any) than you can already see
 
@Rob I use it!
 
but Rob you need to understand, we are counting on you
I mean that
 
@Rob That's actually a pretty nice tool
Where are you getting the data?
 
1:28 AM
Rob I want to feed that and replace what I do
 
Mods have no additional filtering of close reasons or close votes
 
Rob
@Mogsdad Oh, great :). I'll at least keep it around for a few months, and then see the feedback from the room - if it's worth keeping around or not or if it needs a few tweaks
@Drew Sure, I'll still be around closing in any case :)
 
@Rob What's it written in?
oh, I can look :P
well, if there's a good way to run C# on Ubuntu, I could host it. But I kinda doubt there is
 
Rob
@Undo It basically watches: Close actions from the 10k tools, review history and recent questions
 
hrm
Interesting
 
Rob
1:29 AM
Then it just scrapes the question and potentially opens the close dialog
Mono works pretty well - and I don't believe it's using any unsupported methods, though I haven't tested it on mono
 
Even responsible design..
 
Rob we need you and I to do this
 
yeah, this thing is awesome. Wish I'd known about it sooner @Rob.
 
Rob
Great to hear - it had a bunch of issues with load quotas being hit at the start, so I didn't aggressively advertise it
 
Rob, how often is the data refreshed? I found questions that were closed, for example.
 
Rob
1:38 AM
It refreshes if it sees a question in the 10k tools, recent review or cv-pls. Otherwise, it continually checks it for a day while there's activity (activity counts as close/reopen/delete/any type of vote)
When you click a link on the search results, it'll query the question in around 2 minutes
so those stale ones you're seeing will be gone next time you check
 
genius
fyi @Rob, looks like it's choking on 36414215 - it's deleted on the site (as of Apr 4), but still in the table
 
Rob
Hmm, let me take a look
Can't see it
can you click PermaLink filter and paste it here?
 
Rob
It's gone :P
About 20 seconds ago it refreshed
 
oh, so I must have triggered a refresh
Okay then
 
1:48 AM
can someone help me clean some debian questions? soclosevotetrackerui.azurewebsites.net/Home/…
grrr
 
I almost don't want to fix the typo at the end of this... stackoverflow.com/a/36317293/1677912
@Braiam Tomorrow, when I get more votes. 60 only lasts an hour...
 
@Rob cool!
 
Rob
If anyone runs into any issues/feature requests - you can chuck them up here github.com/rjrudman/SOCloseVoteTracker/issues or give me a ping
 
2:13 AM
@Undo - Here's a bounty question that has a picture of code... should be closed / no mcve.
 
JAL
@Mogsdad ending tomorrow, mods might just say leave it
or you can risk the mod flag. I've gotten too many declined flags from flagging bounty questions that end in < 2 days
 
@JAL Maybe... he was looking for things to delete, though! (But looks like he's left now.) And no, I'm not flagging it. Don't need the pain.
 
JAL
Oh didn't realize. You could ask in Charcoal HQ, a bunch of mods hang out in there
I'm trying to get this one closed myself
Mogs what's your dev environment for writing userscripts? I want to start helping out with them, but I'm not really a web dev
I like Sublime with a linter or Brackets on my mac, or just vim with syntastic on my chromebook. But I'm curious as to what you and Tiny use
 
2:32 AM
@JAL Very low-tech. Just the TamperMonkey / GreaseMonkey editors, and browser JS console. Then cut & paste to GitHub.
I use gvim at times for large-scale reformatting.
 
JAL
Hmm, interesting. Would you recommend this guide as a good starting point?
 
I'd been using JS & jQuery prior to trying any userscripts - the basics of both are all you really need. Since userscripts are sandboxed, Firebug-type debugging isn't possible, so get to know the javascript console on your favourite browser. Then grab an existing script and hack at it to do something different.
 
JAL
Thanks. I've been playing around with more browser-based js recently. There's this Apple thing called TVML where you write serverside js with xml to create views for an Apple TV app. It's pretty cool, but the one thing I'm not used to is to not having a powerful ide with autocomplete
Writing js will definitely make me a stronger programmer
 
@JAL It can also warp you... loosely typed code lets you do all kinds of things that seem crazy in other languages! (I'm an old C programmer, so I was already warped that way...)
There's been a steady stream of crud in NATO tonight, but I've got to get to sleep. I toss the baton to you, if you want it! And - broken record here - the cv-pls list needs some reviewers - see the pinned post.
 
JAL
@Mogsdad You should take a look at the crazy shit you can do with Swift! I'm mostly Objective-C/Swift, but slowly learning C and C++ again from where I left off in college
I'm working on an 8080 disassembler in C and Swift
I'll go through NATO and the cv-queue, just need to install the cv-pls script on this machine. Thanks Mogs, get some rest
 
2:50 AM
I used Objective-C on QNX for a while in, oh, 1989 or so. A disassembler would be fun - I'm fluent (but rusty) on Z80 & 8080, then the 8086, 286, x86... good times!
'night!
 
JAL
@Mogsdad We should talk tomorrow! I love hearing about legacy QNX and NeXT systems!
 
 
1 hour later…
Rob
4:01 AM
@Tunaki What was the incident?
 
4:45 AM
morning @all
which makes it just Rob and Smokie :P
@Drew - Could you ping me once you see this ?:)
 
Rob
Morning @TheLostMind
 
I see it @TheLostMind
we could use some help on the java front
we have hundreds of questions that are hurting us and we could use some mod help
 
Yes. I went through that comment thread..
Where is the list (beehive?) @Drew
 
5:04 AM
@TheLostMind It is more of a discussion of will you to start?
The list is huge
we are working it
 
Yes. I know the state of affairs :)
Yes. I know that too.. I think your idea of "close-vote-mods" is good and makes sense
 
ok give us 8 hours k. And take some vitamins first
 
OK.. Vitamins don't change a thing in 8 hours
 
What are your hours so to speak
@TheLostMind we have peer review and a respect thing going
 
I can work whenever I am available.. No "hours" per-se
 
5:13 AM
@TheLostMind Not to be a jerk but I unleash people not in such
can we have a clue
 
I would say from 1 am (your time) + 8 hours
will not be online always... But will always be popping in every now and then..
 
thx
 
Don't even get how you get that information about the cv count on questions and from where you get the motivation to write code to parse this.
 
NP.. even if I am not around, drop me a message, I will look into it
 
Rob
@Rizier123 Mine basically opens up the code vote dialog, and then looks where the existing votes were placed: github.com/rjrudman/SOCloseVoteTracker/blob/master/Core/…
As for motivation.. it's mostly boredom when work is quiet
 
5:20 AM
Riz we are all here for the same motivation no
Make the stack a great place to ask and answer and pearls of answers
 
@Rob There is a lot of motivation in your boredom. What happens when you are not bored and real motivated?!
@Drew question is just, how long and how strong will that motivation last.
 
I don't know. Shog will tell. We burn out.
90 days ?
 
afk
 
@Rizier123 There are people here with a lot more time in system than me. A lot
It would be a discredit to focus on a new approach without ackn that. Them. That said, it is failing
 
5:46 AM
@Gothdo Hammered...
 
@PraveenKumar Thanks.
 
Morning o/
 
Rob
6:01 AM
Morning
 
6:17 AM
@Magisch I've noticed you've started reviewing! I'll update your session record.
Magisch passed a audit!
Magisch passed a audit!
@Magisch You've reviewed 60 posts today (of which 2 were audits), thanks! The time between your first and last review today was 14 minutes and 30 seconds, averaging to a review every 14 seconds.
 
6:43 AM
Im severely burning out sifting through 60 trash posts a day and determining wether they're just bad or cv-bad
I think after the 60 cv test phase is over I shall take a break from this. I've done roughly 1.2k close vote reviews since it started....
 
Morning
 
Morning Ferry
 
Morning TLM
 
@Magisch Mag mag let's talk about this ... thx for bringing it up
 
6:46 AM
More close votes when I can cast them organically is fine, but reviewing 60 posts a day is either not for me or self inflicted torture, depending on my mood that day
 
understood
 
WHat if there was a widget at the right of some pages that ask if a certain question should be closed, that would help with people who normally don't review
 
take a few days off bro
 
I don't think review queues will do it
 
listen to some fun music. we sort it out
 
6:51 AM
Morning
 
this is a grissmill @Magisch we understand. Music chill out bro
I would say this. Those willing to subjegate themselves to the queue and the stress of it deserve a little badge everyday
I would say this. Those willing to subjugate themselves to the queue and the stress of it deserve a little badge everyday
 
Welp
Time to go answer some stuff instead
 
7:09 AM
@user2314737 I've noticed you've started reviewing! I'll update your session record.
 
Grmnf plop
 
@Magisch mornin'. Yeah but then you have to sift through the lists of questions that -deserve- close voting ;)
 
@Gimby Tis' a bland and gray day here at the officer
and it will only get blander and grayer this weekend
 
sigh. I tried.
 
user2314737 passed an audit!
 
7:15 AM
Hey @Kyll
I haven't seen you all day yesterday. There was a distinct lack of Kyll all day
 
@Closey Oh, so gunr finally turned you into a QA consultant then?
@user2314737 Typed OK, so now you know you really only need a shared host when you are starting out in DuckDuckGo to check if the answer is legit, got a Wikihow "How to know if a girl likes you"
Raising a mod flag, commenting
 
@Magisch amen. I actually decided to go do some reviewing again just to spice it up a bit.
 
@Kyll me too haha that's a search engine
 
@Kyll What so he even copied that
And here I was for a second thinking someone had spent time and effort writing something...
 
He copied the whole thing, flag raised.
 
7:23 AM
brb I have to check that site lol
 
@Magisch I traveled the deutchen alpen strasse
 
He just changed the "Our recommendation" part. This is borderline spammy.
 
And then you run into this in VLQ :/ jQuery's .css() doesn't work . Apparently it is too much of an effort to waste two words in an answer.
 
@Kyll I checked his most upvoted answer
 
@user2314737 Note that the same search with quotes to check for exact appearance reveals the plagiarism perfectly: duckduckgo.com/…
 
7:26 AM
 
resolved to live in garmish alpenkirchen
 
@Magisch Use a custom mod flag, will be fun seeing his reputation drop by more than 300
 
@Ferrybig Done
 
Guys, we don't moderate users. If you decide to check a user profile that's on you, not on this room.
There's no RO around so someone has to kill the fun and I happen to be good at that =p
 
Im not moderating the user
I was just curious
 
7:32 AM
Yeah but y'know, we shouldn't try to attract attention to a specific user, so I cut it quick. void kyll_the_fun if you wish
 
:p
 
@Kyll it's quite disconcerting what duckduckgo returns as results for the query "OK, so now you know you really only need a shared host when you are starting out" (with no quotes) -- makes me doubt the quality of this search engine
 
@user2314737 You can't really judge a search engine with one query. I've been using DDG for a few years now and I found it really great, particularly when searching about programming issues. The only issue I had with DDG was localized content - French content indexation isn't great. I almost never had to go back to Google to find better.
 
@Kyll true that "You can't really judge a search engine with one query."
 
It may be because some websites are heavily favoured by DDG. I guess when there's a "How" query then DDG may try to push Wikihow further up. When DDG identifies a programming query then SO is favoured too, which I often found helpful
 
7:41 AM
@Rob Doesn't matter. What matters is the consequence.
Hiya
 
I missed all of what went down yesterday
 
Plop Tuna!
Dang, did I miss drama yesterday?
 
Hiya Tuna!
 
Well most of what did
 
7:43 AM
@PetterFriberg Commented on answer
 
@Kyll the crate.io question
The dev from crate.io is providing exactly what the guy asked for
 
Meh, probably so.
 
And the guy asking has other Qs
so its not a spam seed
And so has the crate-io dev
 
I agree, I didn't get that it was an offer from the discussed service. Meh, let's just close that.
 
7:59 AM
just to be sure: when you come across a VLQ answer which is actually the OP posting additional information as an answer which should go into the question instead, the appropriate course is to edit that information into the question manually and then recommend deletion?
 

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