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3:00 PM
Growing boobs slowly. Pretty fine. What about you?
 
@Morwenn Probably beating your rate on that, completely unintentionally via beer. Things are going okay, I think this infix progress is pretty cool, and I like how then and else are evolving
 
@HostileFork I read the first link as "rethink everything", which sounds a bit like what you've been doing x)
 
There are now two forms of infix treatment of left arguments (well, actually, generic to any argument, but most notable on the left of infix)
Well, four forms really, but two evaluative forms
So it either completes the left expression before running, or doesn't
Because there is now the option to complete vs not, you can get (if condition [block]) else [other-thing], e.g. your only option is not if condition ([block] else [other-thing])
Which makes for some fairly wild stuff.
yesterday, by HostileFork
The gooey and bizarre game of how a: 10 | foo: function [a] [print a] | foo 20 works mechanically, under the hood, is Rebol's wild illusion. It looks so obvious and simple, like any scripting language, yet mechanically the underpinnings are nothing like the languages you think it is. You're using something that is capable of looking conventional, but you can throw twists and customizations into it no one would expect.
 
The else improvement seems pretty neat.
 
@Morwenn For an interesting case study, look at this diff: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/pull/416/…
Since you don't hold it all in your head, a CASE statement is case [some expression [some code] some other expression [some code]], basically an N-ary IF statement
 
3:08 PM
It does look simpler/prettier.
 
So the trick is, only return void (a non-reifiable value, can't be put in a block) if no match. If you match and the expression returns void, reify it to the reified void (that you can put in a block)
Hence, failure is void
So in this system THEN is simply () then 10 => void, 20 then 10 => 10
() else 10 => 10, 20 else 10 => 20
So look at the case, then, else chain
And how it fixed the intention, done poorly, without it.
Isn't it crazy to try and push all these features to userspace in a turing machine? :-)
 
That last sentence does not make much sense to me x)
 
Well, I mean, the evaluator is just grinding along, Lispy-like. But it's dressed up so trickily.
You think "oh, that's where it parsed the IF, THEN, ELSE, FUNCTION" etc. but none of it is working how anyone would think.
One lookahead unit
 
@HostileFork Yeah, that's why I often have trouble understanding things past the simplest cases.
 
@Morwenn Well, what I hope is to make it easy, you understand the lambda, right?
The real lambda is a little craftier than the simplified one in the example.
e.g. why can it be you can write foo: (x -> print x), with -> in userspace...
 
3:16 PM
@HostileFork Which one?
 
If x is not defined, why would it be when it churned left to right that it didn't just go "x is not defined"?
It didn't because we're working with one unit of lookahead/lookback
 
:o
 
So, -> can hard quote its left, "soft" quote its left, ask for complete evaluation of the left, or ask for single token evaluation of its left
In this case, it soft quotes
"soft quoting" means, if you give it an expression e.g. in parentheses, it will defer to that instead of giving you the parentheses.
foo: ((second [y x]) -> print x)
So it thinks of that as being x -> print x
 
That's subtle.
 
"hard quoting" is more severe, you shouldn't use it, usually, but sometimes you have to
So you'd get the GROUP! with two elements in it, the second of which is a BLOCK!, that contains two WORD!s, yadda yadda
Anyway, so what it's doing is using that one unit of lookahead and lookback to say "I want to quote my left"
 
3:20 PM
Well, considering that you want an "identifier" on the left, I hardly why you'd want to hard quote :p
 
In general, it seems to me left hard quoting is kind of bad
We have DEFAULT, e.g. x: default [10 + 20]
 
Until you implement <- because you like R so much x)
 
default looks back, finds the SET-WORD!, queries it to see if it has contents already
No contents? Run right hand side, assign x to that.
Again, this is pretty wild userspace language design.
 
I guess it does have its share of surprise.
 
I think people are going to like it, I just have to solve a bit more of it.
It will be like minecraft, or, something.
I of course have a serious programming side to me, the C++/Haskell/etc.
It's not all games and code golf.
 
3:24 PM
@HostileFork Eh, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do what you're doing.
 
But I think if you can really show someone a new idea, that makes them think, that's worth something.
@Morwenn True dat.
 
I made a multiset of prime numbers which stores its contents as a single integer, but I'm unsure it's worth something :o
 
@Morwenn Everything is worth... something? nocycle.hostilefork.com
 
@HostileFork And nothing is something worth doing.
 
@Morwenn Did you listen to the Hacknet soundtrack? A few good ones, IMO.
 
3:27 PM
Nope.
@HostileFork That looks like a fun experiment.
 
@Morwenn I'm proud of the Nstate logo. :-)
 
@HostileFork I'll seriously have to listen to that when I go back home.
 
@Morwenn Been on rotation for me for a while, good stuff.
 
Speaking about that, I actually need to go home x)
 
@Morwenn Well, you need to come help us blow people's minds. :-) Don't be a stranger, we could use your talents.
 
3:32 PM
@HostileFork C'mon, I need to actually think everytime I come here D:
 
@Morwenn It's good for you!
 
@HostileFork Apparently. But I also like not really thinking from time to time :p
Anyway, I've got to go. Later :)
 
l8r
 
4:01 PM
@draegtun Figured it out
Startup code for the host should be in the startup function, not at "global scope" (yeah, wrong words, but you know what I mean) before the startup function has run.
I am glad, that this can be seen, fairly what I think of as "obviously" today.
Speaking of course relatively, because R3-Alpha wasn't doing anything like this
 
4:14 PM
@HostileFork Thanks. However i need this LOAD to just update the REPL (ie. cat out of the bag now, my plan is for this to allow user customisation of the repl). Can that be done?
For eg. in my repl-skin.reb I did have...
    q: :quit
 
@draegtun The return value of the startup function is the REPL function... !
 
Oh OK... cool.
 
I already thought of this. :-)
 
not surprised :)
OK... I'll have a crack at it after dinner. Catch yer later :)
 
@draegtun Seriously, really glad someone is even looking at this, it didn't write itself.
 
4:58 PM
@GeekyI I appreciate you being a crossover curious cat, who doesn't believe it's good for Rebol and Red to fight. But challenge DocKimbel, and you will see. I guess everyone has to learn the hard way.
He only wants yes men.
And when he doesn't get his way, he sues on trademarks he doesn't own. I admire several aspects of his work, I used to be a supporter, and I still admire aspects. But this guy should not be getting a free pass.
The only way I will let up on Red is a formal truce from DocKimbel.
He has to say something, roughly approximating: "I think it's great you're doing what you're doing, we don't see eye to eye, it seems the best way for us to move forward is to develop with our different points of view. I will not ban anyone for talking about ideas which came from your work, and you won't do the same either regarding my designs. We all win when the best ideas get a chance to have their day in the sun and see if they work."
If he can't say that, I might not be able to sleep at night with people going "oh, great work Red team!" because, I feel if he can't say something like that it's not great work and it's not a team.
If no one can get DocKimbel to say something approximating the above, that is a warning sign
Sorry I am so incorrigible.
@VasudevRam I can't see dancingbison.com
 
5:14 PM
@HostileFork Sorry, I am new to thiis chat system. Yes, you cannot because the site is not up these days. Had some issues with the hosting provider which are not getting resolved. What used to be be on dancingbison.com is now on vasudevram.github.io . Not decided yet whether to continue trying to resolve hosting issues and get domain and site working again, or get a new one. Hence this temp site.
@HostileFork Where did you see my site URL ? on my SO profile? I thought I hand changed it in most places where I have a presence - to the new one. Will check.
 
@VasudevRam Well, welcome, you apparently stepped into a random moment in time you knew nothing about. :-) StackOverflow is useful.
@VasudevRam Hover your icon, there is a chat profile and a user profile, they can be different.
 
Thanks. No, I know SO, though I am not very active on it. I mean I was new to the chat system on it (though used others of course).
@HostileFork thanks - will try that.
 
@VasudevRam We used to be more evangelistic about the language(s) here, lately it's kind of an insiders group, but if you'd like to learn a little about why we do what we do, we can talk about it.
 
Sure. I am actually interested in REBOL and Red, that's why I came here just now. Came from a few threads about Red that I saw on HN recently - the new one about Red 6.2. I had played around with REBOL years ago when it was somewhat new. But did not use it a lot, for whatever reason. Now I feel that I should have (not because of Red per se, but because of the good features of both of them. Also some because of Red, because now it has a compiler and the goals are to be more cross-platform etc.
 
@VasudevRam We're having a little Rebol/Red fight, but not of any concern to anyone--the languages themselves have no personality, just the developers. You shouldn't let it influence you.
 
5:22 PM
@HostileFork K, thanks for the tip, and I won't. I don't know enough about either language yet to get influenced one way or the other anyway.
 
@VasudevRam The Red chat site is here: gitter.im/red/red
 
@HostileFork Thanks, will check it out.
 
@VasudevRam For me, the question of "why" we would think of development along these lines, is a very artistic question. My biases as an engineer are very much for formal systems, so you'd think my vision of 10, 20, 1000 years in the future would be functional programming, equations, perfection...
But what keeps me engaged is a sort of "game", which if you understand what's happening, you are getting your hands dirty with a pliable medium
I made a clay Rebol once :-)
 
@HostileFork Nice.
 
@VasudevRam Also I drew the Rebol/Red icons, before Red decides to replace it with a platypus or something...
 
5:29 PM
@HostileFork Had not seen the O one before.
 
@VasudevRam It's a reboot that never made it to rebol.com - but rebol.com is fairly frozen in time.
 
@HostileFork Ok. Yes, seen that recently.
 
@VasudevRam In any case, I don't want to bias you one way or another, if you have more to say about why you'd be interested in Rebol or Red I might be able to help more. I actually think the best place to start as a new user is talking to Red people, because it's a good place for newbies. We aren't as newbie friendly here, too busy :-)
 
@HostileFork Sure, I can say that. I'm interested in Rebol and Red for a few reasons:
1. I am a programming language fan - as a user, that is. I don't have skills in designing or implementing languages). I periodically check out and try some new languages a bit - new meaning new to me, not only new in time. In the past I've sometimes checked out older languages too, that I was not familiar with, e.g. Icon and Forth.
(contd.) Also new ones now and then, like Pike and ElastiC and some others I may not remember right now. Got into Ruby when it was fairly new (outside Japan), is another example, and then did some commercial work with it and Rails for a while. So that is actually another reason too - to explore whether I can do some projects in some new language - for which there is demand.
2. I like lightweight languages, tools, etc. And know that both REBOL and Red are light.
 
@VasudevRam Trying to be, but it's hard to be both light and... big. I want to sort of modularize Rebol, so its core evaluator is light.
 
5:38 PM
3. Like and have used both interpreted (BASIC, Ruby, Python) and compiled (Java, C, Pascal) languages. Been working on interpreted languages most, for some years, and feeling like getting back to compiled ones. Saw that Red can be compiled. That's another reason. In this context (compiled languages) I tried out D and FreePascal too (a little), recently.
 
@VasudevRam Well, you will see in what I am doing (let us call that Ren-C, for lack of a better name, derived from open source Rebol3) a very big difference in philosophy and implementation from Red.
I am an engineer, I believe in rigor, I use assert statements in my code.
 
Interesting. Just briefly saw a ren-C page on Github - again via that HN thread.
 
@VasudevRam We aren't advertising!
It's members only :-)
 
@HostileFork Didn't get the bit about advertising.
 
@VasudevRam Rebol2 is the last more or less stable Rebol. When you ask "why a Rebol3", e.g. what didn't Rebol2 do that necessitated a new design, it is because a lot of questions came up...and Rebol3 was a more community engaged project
 
5:42 PM
@HostileFork If you thought I was implying anything, I was not. I just mentioned that I saw that page - via HN - via someone's comment there, nothing more. Anyway, interesting that you believe in rigor and use asserts. I like to use asserts too and once used them pretty heavily in a product I worked on.
 
@VasudevRam Well, I like type safety, bounds checking, functional programming, anything we can use to help make up for being silly animals with keyboards.
I know I'm a moron, and that is why I'm smart. :-)
 
@HostileFork Ha ha, good points. I tend to think similarly - except not much knowledge of FP, though interested in it too. I like your last sentence :)
@HostileFork While we are speaking of asserts, do you have an opinion on this:
 
@VasudevRam Well if you're looking into new languages, do look at Haskell, I know its flaws to the point that I can tell you it might be a bit of a dead end... just a different dead end... but it's worth the time. You will come to like Hoogle...
 
@HostileFork - whether it is good to keep asserts enabled in production / deployed code (like to customers)? I used to think that it should be kept in there too, so that when an assert triggers (in the real use env, that is prod) we can get that info from the customer - like what assert message triggered, which will help debug and fix the error. A team member on that product I mentioned didn't agree - said it is
@HostileFork ... better to keep the product running even in degraded mode, which an assert will prevent - because it will terminate the app.
@HostileFork Thoughts on that?
 
To put it bluntly, if you know the inputs and outputs of something that is a function only of its inputs, it means if you're looking for a transformation you can often "google it" just based on the types...how many solutions of taking certain types in and putting other types out there can there be when they're pure functions of input? You don't even need to remember the name, just think what kinds of things are going in and out.
@VasudevRam Your question is known in the industry as "test what you ship". I designed this: hoist
 
5:48 PM
@HostileFork I had tried Haskell some years ago but did not get it well then - maybe didn't try enough or had not so good docs to learn from. This was over 8 or more years ago.
 
I feel agitated about the idea of release builds, I wish I could always have the sensors in
But, I don't run the world, so shipping debug builds is not usually done.
People think 3x faster is worth it, I guess they are busy and need it to be faster at the cost of certainty.
 
@HostileFork I agree on having sensors in.
 
I'm patient, I'd wait if you told me I could trust it more.
That said, you can be an idiot about asserts, and waste time on a check that's in an inner loop that gets you little.
 
@host thanks , will check out hoist (took a very brief look now). Don't know C++ though. only C.
sorry, I meant @Hostilefork above.
 
So on Ren-C, I now and again look into the "why so much time spent on this assert that has, not, in a year caught a single problem)"
You have to spend your cycles on something that actually helps.
If you spend 20% of debug build execution time checking something, and that check never found a problem... probably bad investment.
 
5:56 PM
@HostileFork True. But you cannot always know that beforehand.
 
Good thing we don't have to.
 
@HostileFork could get around the problem of assert (in tight loop) using too much time - but wrapping it in an if i & 1000 or 1 mill == 0 ?
 
Moderation note: Don't mind the alteration of owners, not so much on board with room name changes or feed changes.
 
@HostileFork Haven't tried that before, and can't remember if it would work or not - an assert inside an if.
 
@VasudevRam Every situation is different, but if you've not used something like callgrind, it's really easy to get started.
@rgchris I know I'm not supposed to comment, but I feel like if Red wants a truce, the magnanimity can't be all one sided. I'd like a declaration of good intent, which you'd think wouldn't be hard to get, and the fact that it is hard to get is why this is an issue.
I, strangely enough, can make a deal and promise good intent.
 
6:01 PM
@HostileFork Both changes obscure a key objective of this room—language advocacy. Has nothing to do with community politics.
 
@rgchris Yes, I'm not thrilled either.
I'd like to see good things happen vs. bad things.
But... well... who is going to help? Gregg was not sincere.
@VasudevRam I'm really very much a fan of static analysis, I like the idea of using every tool you can to check anything you might miss. There are some nice modern tools, like clang-analyzer.llvm.org
It's not hard to use, just as valgrind's callgrind tool is not hard to use (generates graphs like the above)
When it comes to asserts, I think you should be pound-wise and not penny-foolish; which means, instrument your debug build.
 
rgchris has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
@HostileFork Thanks, had heard of valgrind but not checked it out, so also did not know of callgrind. And didn't know about clang-analyzer. Will take a look at them. I too like to use tools to check what we may miss.
 
Have reinstated the Twitter feed less the #Redlang tag which presumably no longer is oriented towards the Red language.
 
Red-OpenCV 3 is also updated on https://github.com/ldci/OpenCV3-red Tested with Red/View on Windows 10 and Mac OS. https://t.co/pKxiy8jtr3
#REBOL in ten steps: http://rebol.com/rebolsteps.html #programming #REBOL #scripting
 
6:08 PM
@HostileFork Ever tried out D and if so, any opinion on it?
 
@VasudevRam Yes; I lived in Seattle, Walter Bright was there at the meetups. Opinion is, there was a time when, it looked like D might be relevant, because C++ was seeming to flounder a bit, in the standards process. But though it took a while, C++ ultimately got a huge injection from C++11 and hasn't lost momentum since.
Had C++ not had its renaissance like it did, D might have legs, but it doesn't because C++ knocked the ball out of the park, in a way.
It just took a really, really, really long time to hit the ball.
Bjarne said they were going to do sprints from then on, no more marathons in the standards process.
Didn't know you were talking to someone who's talked with Bjarne Stroustrup personally did you? :-P
I've met several "rock stars" in my time, I guess.
 
@HostileFork Interesting ...
@HostileFork hehe
 
@VasudevRam If you know a bit of C or C++, and have an interest in the project here, we can totally use your help.
Volunteer C/C++ programmers are not so easy to find.
 
@rgchris I removed the feed because I found the rEDlang feeds annoying. If you've fixed it, that's great.
 
@HostileFork Unfortunately, I don't really have enough time to get involved in a new project at present - too much work going on and the remaining time I have, is already dedicated to a side project I'm working on. Sorry. Anyway, which project are you talking about? ren-c? or rebol3?
 
6:17 PM
@VasudevRam The only active Rebol3 development is what we call Ren-C, there's not really any point of talking about another Rebol3.
 
As for the room name change, that was to make it clearer that all rebol derivatives can be discussed here
 
@GrahamChiu Yeah, tried filtering it and they kept using different permutations. Not worth it when no-one uses for Red anyway.
 
There used to be 4 branches, I guess you would say
 
@Host ok got it.
 
Or I guess, 5. rebol.com, community, saphirion, atronix, ren-c
 
6:19 PM
@GrahamChiu Fair enough. The asterisk seems superfluous then and looks ugly.
 
Saphirion gave up, community leader resigned, rebol.com never took a PR, and atronix and ren-c started merging.
 
I didn't want the remote chance of someone complaining that this room was tagged rebol but we only discussed the ren-c fork! :(
 
So, a recent controversy is, whether this gives anyone the right to claim that the sole remaining development effort of Rebol3 is "legitimate" and can be called " a rebol"
But the controversy is just crap because I like to insult the leader of Red.
So he wants to see if he can mess with me or not.
 
@rgchris well without the * we could be subject to all sorts of complaints
 
I dunno, it just makes me feel like insulting him more, really.
But everyone says I shouldn't.
 
6:22 PM
@HostileFork Which is not endorsed by all (any?) owners here. We don't censor though.
 
@rgchris No one has to endorse that! It's just me.
But it is, a sort of free speech kind of thing.
 
@HostileFork you're off topic
 
@GrahamChiu Told you I don't agree to anything until I get a deal.
Art of the Deal. Always get something.
I learned that from The President.
 
@HostileFork I refer you to your promise. How about keeping to it for at least a day!
 
@GrahamChiu Uh it was very one sided, also I hadn't noticed the response in the chat, from 3 days ago, so it was as if it happened afterward.
When people don't ping you, you don't get notified.
So you might not know they said anything
 
6:27 PM
@rgchris how about help.rebol.info now pulling text from the new or temporary help repo?
 
Anyway, I will say, I'm glad that Red got the reception from HackerNews on the second post, I want a peace treaty.
So will someone get me a darn peace treaty.
If it's hard to get, then you know why I'm mad
 
@HostileFork just declare one unilaterally
 
It should be easy.
No! Why do I have to be the egalitarian! I'm the crazy person!
 
And then stay on topic
 
Do not ask the craziest person in the room to be magnanimous.
Ask your "reasonable people"
 
6:29 PM
It's not a judgement, it's a request
 
Well, I can make requests too.
Anyway, like some other people have said, if we programmers can't pull it together no wonder countries go around pointing missiles at each other and fighting for centuries.
 
Maybe, but then the stakes for brokering peace here are lower—the pressure to do so is less intense.
 
@rgchris Still the same thing, just less important.
Anyway, I don't think it's fair to try and force me into a deal with nothing from the other side.
 
What is the deal?
 
In this case, pretty simple, work on your own language and leave us alone.
Apparently too much to ask.
Don't lie through your stupid teeth pretending you are the guardian of the trademark of a language that you yourself insisted shouldn't be tied to yours when we were talking about it because you thought it had the stink of failure.
So when it starts to have a few good, promising developments, you act terribly because your yes men have made you feel puffy and think you can get away with that.
Tired of people puffing up that puffball.
 
6:39 PM
@HostileFork Thats OK. I enjoy playing with this and I do like a challenge :)
 
@draegtun Sorry I'm mad, but, I... I am mad.
I do not want to interfere with Red development.
Wish it was a mutual feeling.
 
In essence i have it working :) However its just the same as rebol.r (except it would be in users HOME direction). So means it runs everytime Rebol is run. What I'm really after (and what you would also like!) is it just to inject the changes into REPL only
 
@draegtun ? What do you mean.
You want to parameterize the REPL, with some changes, not replace the whole function?
 
OK... bit like running do %some-changes.r in REPL manually
 
@draegtun Well, maybe if you aren't getting what you want, or don't see how to get it, it should be raised as an issue...
 
6:44 PM
What I'm trying todo is not pollute Rebol vocab... just the REPL vocab
ie. REPL only functions (commands)
 
@draegtun Well, you have in the REPL function that opportunity do you not?
The debugger binds the commands into the current stack frame, even
in user mode
 
Yes I'm looking into it. Just at moment working my way around the code in host-start & host-repl
 
@draegtun This is very different from R3-Alpha, there was no user mode REPL
 
yes... i wouldn't have touched the C-base one :)
 
@draegtun Trying to use less and less C, especially in things that are not performance-critical, and what is less performance-critical than a REPL? You spend 1000% of your time waiting for the user to do something. :-P
 
6:49 PM
I agree... though I have seen some slow native REPLs in my time :(
Rebol console has always been zippy. So far I've not noticed any difference in your user mode version.... so thumbs up!
2
 
@draegtun It's very different, but I'm glad you're feeling curious to the point you think you can muck with it! Like you say, the C wasn't going to really get anyone involved.
Memory buffers, expanding, it was, uh, not going anywhere.
I want to push a lot more into userspace with the console, the history, etc.
The less C, the better.
 
@HostileFork I agree
 
@draegtun But note that a userspace console creates problems for debugging and tracing, if you saw: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/issues/436
 
@HostileFork Where does this happen?
ie. can you point me to line in code?
 
6:57 PM
chars :)
 
@draegtun One thing I like to think about myself is that I'm pretty clear. If I'm wrong and I'm not, fix any comment you think can be improved.
 
@sqlab I'm pretty sure that you can get synchronous IO like rebol2 just by writing a scheme to do this.
Gabriele does this in prot-http where he forces sync reads and writes
So, if you want rebol2 semantics .. where you open, insert, read and close a port ... it's all possible
 
7:40 PM
@rgchris this is a test of the format .. any comments? github.com/gchiu/reboldocs/blob/master/default.MD
 
posted on March 28, 2017 by OneArb

I am attempting the following code, however unview out1 closes out2 rather than out1 as expected.     out1: layout [text 'out1' button 'Close 2' [unview out2]]     out2: layout [button 'Close 1' [unview out1]]     view/new out1     view/new out2     do-events

 
@giuliolunati how far did you get with layout on android?
 
 
2 hours later…
9:57 PM
@GrahamChiu Seems like work to keep it organised...
 
@rgchris what do you see as the issues?
 
Appears to be reliant on contributors adhering to conventions to stay organised.
 
@rgchris well the persons managing the repo can decline to accept PRs if they don't adhere.
Just needs a style guide written I guess. But that's not my thing. I'd rather go for content rather than worry too much about style.
 
I'd still opt for Trello where you get much content management included. Remind me the versioning issues with that?
 
We did have community collaboration before with the wikibook and that wasn't too bad was it?
@rgchris Is there versioning?
 
10:09 PM
I mean, why is it a problem? There is activity history...
 
And I presume that we would have to embed the trello api into the core so that it redirects correctly to the right page
Or, you would have to pull the correct page from your script on help.rebol.info
Seems pretty onerous
 
I would poll and pull the content. You could add hooks to do it automatically, but extraction isn't that difficult.
 
I will add that editing github pages in the browser is painful
@rgchris so how will you know which page a word goes to?
 
Words would correspond to card titles.
 
And won't it mean that everyone has to join trello?
@rgchris Isn't there a hash in the url?
 
10:14 PM
@GrahamChiu No. For the most part, just reading info wouldn't be done on Trello anyway.
 
@rgchris Ok, we're talking at cross purposes. Can you show me a demonstration of how it would work?
 
This is the only call you need make to extract a board with lists, cards, comments, etc:
board: trello/fetch/with join %boards/ system/script/header/board [
    lists: "all"
    checklists: "all"
    cards: "all"
    comments: "all"
    actions: "commentCard"
    card_attachments: "true"
]
 
I'm not familiar with the trello api
If you can pull the card name off the API then I guess it solves the major problem
 
(where trello is shorthand for an OAuth authenticated HTTPS call to Trello, the block as params, the file as the method)
 
Well, I'm trying to avoid the chaos that occurred when some well meaning person made wholesale changes to the rebol wiki that needed to be laboriously reverted
 
10:20 PM
You get back an object with, amongst other things, an array of card objects (with ids, urls), an array of list objects, checklists, comments.
 
I'm for whatever works, and has been implemented
That doesn't involve a lot of work from me :)
@rgchris is twitter being worked on at present to make it ren-c compatible?
 
You can limit access for content and let anyone comment.
@GrahamChiu It can be.
 
do we have an official twitter account?
 
I'm leaning more to very light API implementations.
 
@rgchris with respect to?
 
10:29 PM
As long as you have a neutral OAuth implementation, should be easy to reach OAuth-protected APIs.
I haven't got there yet with Rebol 3/Ren-C, but it's on my radar.
 
(OAuth should be part of the HTTP(S)/REST scheme)
 
But for the moment function help points to github, and datatypes to rebol.com. Once you've got your system working we can repoint to help.rebol.info
 
My REST scheme for Rebol 2 works with Twitter, Etsy, Flickr, Trello, etc.
 
we're still quite impoverished on the r3 side of things
But I'm not aware of any industrial automation being run with rebol2 :)
 
10:40 PM
Took me years to learn the nuances of Rebol 2. Has taken a while to learn the nuances of Rebol 3. Ren-C is different still and is in (albeit well-documented) flux. Rebol 2 had a much larger community/ecosystem with more people willing to try code/scripts at the time I was learning. It'll take some dedication and determination to get to the same level of maturity.
@GrahamChiu I'd suggest pointing to help.rebol.info—I can either redirect or link to your github pages in the interim.
Rather than point to rebol.com, for example.
 
@rgchris Sure, if you set that up now, I'll make the PR .. or you could :)
 
What is the preferred url scheme?
https://github.com/gchiu/reboldocs/blob/master/<word>.MD ?
 
https://github.com/gchiu/reboldocs/blob/master/help.MD
Yes, correct
"|" -> "-bar"
https://github.com/gchiu/reboldocs/blob/master/-bar-bar.MD
the code is in the latest help
 
How about <>?=+-!/
This was my map for rebol.com:
"!" "-ex"
"?" "-q"
"*" "-mul"
"+" "-plu"
"/" "-div"
"=" "-eq"
"<" "-lt"
">" "-gt"
 
10:59 PM
        "!" "-ex"
        "?" "-q"
        "*" "-mul"
        "+" "-plu"
        "/" "-div"
        "=" "-eq"
        "<" "-lt"
        ">" "-gt"
        "|" "-bar"
This is from Carl's code so we still can refer back to his pages
 
Ok, so same convention?
 
Yes. If we build the same pages as Carl, then we can point back to rebol.com still.
Which I'm doing at present for those pages where an equivalent still exists
so you'll see 'https://github.com/gchiu/reboldocs/blob/master/-plu-plu.MD` which does not show a link to rebol.com since 'http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/functions/-plu-plu.html` is a 404
 
An idea I'd wrt Trello was to use lists to organise word categories—kind of like the Rebol 2 dictionary albeit it'd be limited to one category per word.
Not quite sure where you'd store that in the autogenerated system.
 
I presume that we can't copy the descriptions from rebol.com but we can still use that as inspiration :)
@rgchris So, what's your plan there?
How do you plan on syncing any help changes in the source code with trello cards?
 
Would have to be more general anyways.
@GrahamChiu I have a few ideas. How is the help info currently extracted from source?
 
11:13 PM
for-each [key val] lib [
    print ["Current key: " key]
    if error? try [
        help :key
        r: helpdocs/doc :key
        if r/1 = "functions" [
            filename: rejoin [%docs/functions/ r/2 %.MD]
            dump filename
            echo filename
            help :key
            echo _
            tmp: to string! read filename
            replace/all tmp "<" "&lt;"
            replace/all tmp ">" "&gt;"
            replace/all tmp " " "&nbsp;"
            replace/all tmp newline join-of "  " newline
not very elegant
helpdocs just is a hacked version of help that returns the generated filename and its type
to get this to work, we had to fix both echo and help :(
the trailing two spaces on each line is so that MD will allow me to get a newline without a new paragraph. And the &nbsp; is so I can indent!
 
11:45 PM
Not generated from the source code though?
 
11:57 PM
@rgchris No. Is that what you want to do?
After all the help from the source may not match whatever build the person is using.
 
Could do, or could do it from within a newly built binary.
 
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