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4:29 AM
@HostileFork I feelings are lamost never blank :-)

I've never used # to mean none!, didn't apeal to me.

I am using _ and do quite like it.

From the department of "easy to overlook" I've head a hard to spot problem with something like this

x:
n: _
k: T

Did you spot the _ on first sight?
OK, the space between lines is bigger here than in vim, so you can spot the underscore a lot better.
 
@ingo pretty obvious
I am using ST 2 and the white on black makes it obvious
I can't see myself using | yet ... as I tend to use newlines
 
4:58 AM
@RebolBot downloads
 
5:21 AM
Yes @GrahamChiu it does seem a bit slow
Looks like it might be a temporary issue with the DNS resolution on DigitalOcean. If it persists we can point to another DNS server.
 
@johnk that's reassuring about the stability of the ren-c code that is running rebolbot
 
@GrahamChiu FYI I do keep the rebolbot server patched regularly hence it is usually bounced every couple of weeks, so it is not running for months at a time. That said I cannot recall the last time it crashed
 
@johnk patched? What sort of patches?
 
@GrahamChiu OS updates
 
oh ... and that requires a reboot??
 
5:29 AM
Kernel patches do usually require a restart. It is possible to set up servers that update in place, but I have not looked into it.
 
ok, I was just wondering how long rebolbot can run for without any attention
 
@GrahamChiu it would be a long time if I left it alone :-) When we next move servers I will have a play with livepatch or equivalent to enable this
 
Although ren-c is still experimental, it's good to get data points like this on its performance
@johnk maybe we can cache dns look ups so it only does it once when it first connects?
afterall, it's only looking for http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red
Seems the #redlang refers to research education and language
 
 
1 hour later…
7:03 AM
@pekr what's the new job anyway?
Are you not doing the kiosk development anymore?
 
I was never doing so as my primary job. I worked 12 yers for a big corp (Trinec Iron and Stell works, cca 10K ppl), then 10 years Walmark (Food supplements/Drugs) and now in a real Estate. Have to travel 60km to get to work, but the position is Director IT.
In the mean time, with my prior activities, we've got a Photo studio and 2 LED screens. studio.2zone.cz
 
@pekr Real estate is good! Better than drugs :)
What are the other Czech rebolers doing these days?
(apart from Rebolek who we see here )
@J.Liu Hi .. you new here?
 
7:22 AM
@GrahamChiu - well, Oldes is with Red, still using R2 for his projects, but in the end, he might switch to Red. Cyphre - did not hear from him for quite some time, last time I heard is, that he is working for Reichart. And Ladislav? We can see him sporadically to log-in, but dunno if he still works for Saphirion ...
 
@pekr Really? I wonder if it's a game then? And Ladislav?
 
Oldes still works for company behind the Machinarium. There is even some prototype AIR Red extension, or something like that - github.com/Oldes/ANERed
 
interesting
He's been here recently but didn't mention this work
 
We as a Rebol community were never good in marketing our efforts :-)
 
@pekr Dunno. Doc seems to be doing a good job
Twitter, Reddit etc.
 
7:29 AM
Yes, Red (FullStack) is much better than Rebol (Rebol Technologies)
 
Whereas Carl was pretty stubborn about resisting all of this and only reluctantly used twitter when there was a rebol client
It's Rebol/only!
I guess that this ideology of his was his downfall,
 
Yes. Sadly, R3 was mostly a one-man-show. Even if Gabriele did first GUI for RT, Carl scrapped it entirely and started over. But prior to that - he did not respond to Gab's requests for consultations.
I was mad about Carl's 1) cave modes, missing for 2-3 months 2) distractions - working on some supporting tool noone asked for (bug base client, R3 chat ...) :-)
 
Was it ever released?
 
What I also did not like was cca 1 year ago Carl's remark (delivered by Bo), claiming he is already working on Rebol 4. Not fair to Red nor Ren-C, whereas he leaves official R3 Github distro left in the water. Later on we've heard another message, claiming Carl has better system in mind than Rebol ....
But I am OK with that now - we've never heard of either again :-)
Nothing against Carl being busy and fully dedicated to his primary job - Roku.
 
And did he ever release those tools he spent months in developing?
I mean we spent hundreds of hours in iOS and altme
And all that investment gone
 
7:38 AM
some beta versions maybe.
Mainly the distraction - each tool toke 3-4 months ... the same Docs redo, but Docs are needed at least.
 
In retrospect he missed the big picture
And tried to monetize by making products few people wanted
 
It was a dead lock. It became clearer and clearer, that Rebol tool sales can't pay RT's bills. Ppl wanted open-source, so what would be the revenue for RT?
 
Does any one make money from open source languages?
 
not sure. But their authors have to be somehow funded, to move forward, no?
 
Well the people making money do make tools
Robert has some costing tools I believe
 
7:50 AM
Yes, but Robert making tools for his business does not pay bill for RT.
 
And of course atronix are using their tools to cut costs
 
We have asked Robert for his take on a recent situation and he feels relaxed. Their tools are still mostly R2 based, R3 GUI was marked as an experiment and most probably, if he would be supposed to move the codebase, it would be LUA anyway ... so ...
 
Yes, languages only don't seem to make an income
 
I think that the problem is the community size. It does not generate enough projects, so that e.g. language authors could be contracted for consultancy, special features, etc.
 
Chicken and egg situation. You only get developers when there's demand
 
8:02 AM
@pekr I feel like I understand Carl's mindset a little more, vicariously through the code and seeing kind of who the users were.
 
... and that means?
 
I mean I understand why he wouldn't want to talk to any of his users. :-)
But also, as people have noticed, I'm very reluctant to say things are ready. There's a lot of little twiddling, and if you are doing that, you don't want people pressuring you.
 
Then why he have created a system - for end users, to make their lives easier?
 
He didn't. He's explicitly said it was his art project, his grand experiment.
 
I think that the problem was, that Carl was a techically very skilled, a guru, but missed on the marketing/sales part.
no, that's not true - you should google his "Back to personal computing" post, back from 1996, when he left Viscorp and refused to join Gateway to create Amiga NG ...
 
8:05 AM
He came to it with a point of view, and as I've said, I have had to try and get in his head some to pull back on complexity explosion by going back and looking at the way he was thinking. But he made a lot of technical mistakes, as well.
 
I have talked to him, back then. I was a main columnist for Amige Review ...
 
I think by the time of Rebol 3, his motives had changed.
 
Were you successful contacting Carl to talk some of your changes? (not that you need to, just curious)
 
I have not spoken to him about any of the interesting changes. The times we talked were long ago, when we were still just trying to work through questions of whether words had spaces in them, things like that.
When I started Ren-C about 2 years ago, I partially did so because I wanted to try making a libRed++ and link it into Qt. But Red was very early then, so to test what I was doing I could either make something up or link to Rebol.
I don't know that I personally am in it for any kind of eternity, the way Nenad is. Ren-C is the research wing, and it's supposed to be the challenge point. When people come ask why Red can do X but not Y, I seek to make it the reference point of what could be done, so that he doesn't dictate all that is.
 
One day, you could/should join Red effort :-) Not saying you should stop Ren-C on the other hand ...
 
8:16 AM
Well, maybe if there's a leadership change. But the "truck factor" (number of developers who would need to be hit by a truck for a project to die) seems to be 1 on Red and perhaps 2 on Ren-C
 
I wonder, what are pros/cons about Red aproach, vs having a C codebase. On one hand, we miss quality C coders and even Oldes was able to extend Red by new datatype, using Red's aproach. On a greater scale, it might not attract C coders to help with the project ...
 
I don't question the decision of Red to not use C. That is one of its greatest strengths.
Red/System is the part of Red that is most interesting to me, personally.
 
Really? That point of view of yours suprises me. I thought I read something quite the opposite - that it is not attractive for C coders
 
That sounds like a simple statement of fact, of a challenge point the project has--not questioning the overall decision.
 
I also wondered, if it would not make sense to rewrite Red compiler in Red itself. I know that Doc plans on that, making it a plug-in mechanism, but that's going to be Red 2. I also know, that you warn before the early bootstrap, but really - why?
Red already has basic IO, is able to read/write, there is imo nothing missing from removing the R2 dependency ...
 
8:21 AM
Well, simple bootstrapping will make the compiler faster, but it won't mean generated Red programs will have any better code. If he's lucky and it all works, the codegen is the same.
 
It's only about the priroties, but maybe someone could volunteer that? Or is your point of view different? You are the one who tried with R3, no?
I simply don't like red.exe, being mostly a bundled R2 with Red codebase ...
I always compile from sources and then use Red GUI console.
 
I understand more or less how Red is written, due to what I did. And I think it would have been a lot healthier to build Red on open source Rebol3 where we could look at things that the Red compiler did a lot and speed it a bit with natives. I have already read conversations where repos have not accepted Red as truly being "open source" because building it requires a closed source component.
Red does need to bootstrap someday, I just think too soon will be suicide.
A rare point of agreement between me and Peter Wood.
 
... and that's what I don't undrestand. Is R2 doing more than just composing a Red and Red/System, compiling, linking? If Red has parse, is able to compose, read/write files, what else you need and why should it be a suicide?
I need a technical answer, not a philosophical one :-)
 
Rebol's debugging tools aren't great, but the level of obfuscation in looking for how to track down a problem is fairly low. If something goes wrong in a Red built with Red and you're bootstrapped, you're really chasing down bytes in the codegen in a much more unfriendly way.
The level of rigor with which DocKimbel works (again, noting that ASSERT isn't even in Red) is fairly low. Red on Red would be painful. People aren't really filing a lot of bug reports because he doesn't have a lot of users, but does he really want to be responsible for bugs inside bugs, each one taking days or weeks? It just does not scale.
I think it would have been ideal to have used an open source bootstrap that wasn't the liability that Rebol2 was, where patches could be made if Red needed them. Then, the bootstrap strategy would be to shape the code so it ran under the Rebol3 as well as the Red, so you could build Red under either itself or the open source tool. Then you'd have the Red built in Red and the Red built in Rebol at the same time.
You could do a full bootstrap in Travis every day, build first with Rebol, then with Red, have two EXEs, compare them.
 
Hmm, I knew I would not understand properly, but thanks for the answer anyway ...
 
8:32 AM
This can still be done with Rebol2, and is the best idea (for him, given the circumstances and his refusal to go with my plan). But I'm sure Doc will think that is limiting and irrelevant; that he won't want to constrain himself to the unchanging Rebol2 source for bootstrap. e.g. he will change the sources so they no longer build in Rebol2 and try to throw Rebol2 away, after declaration of a stable Red.
So Rebol2 will remain as the mechanism for updating the stable Red, if anything goes wrong.
There is nothing new or novel about what he plans to do; projects do this all the time.
But he has shown himself fairly notoriously bad at scheduling and an underestimator of hard problems, and I will say that what he'd be doing--prior to having customers of any scale who aren't complaining about build times--is adding a big tax and taking months (years?) of schedule for something he is again underestimating.
 
You think he is underestimating stuff like GC? He has done GC in the past. Simple GC should come in one of next minor releases ...
 
A tracing GC is "trivial", but he is underestimating the systemic effects that the concerns a GC brings have. I'm reminded of a quote:
> Some facets of usability such as cancellation, undo, progress bars, and others require software architecture support. Because they reach so deeply into the architecture of a system, these facets must be built into the system from its inception rather than added after an initial system design and user interface has been achieved.
It's true for cancellation, undo, and progress bars...and if you're making a language, it's even more true for GC.
 
... well, unless he is thinking ahead, knowing how to plug-it in later ...
 
I'm afraid that if you look at his schedule and the way he thinks about problems, I see no such foresight.
 
or you think he might suddenly realise, that he needs to rewrite some significant part of the codebase? It seems to me he knows what he is doing ...
 
8:41 AM
If he proves me wrong, great. But so far nothing has.
He's doing something, there is no question of that.
 
we might see soon enough :-)
Well, actually 0.6.4, so still months away ...
 
Well, my problem is that I feel other languages which are based on ideas taken to a logical conclusion, like say Haskell, have so much more going for them...and Haskell compiles too. Red looks like kindergarteners making scribble paintings.
So to me, it's important to "find the game", what might possibly be remarkable about Rebol?
And how do you tell that story. That's what I'm looking at, and again, without speaking for Carl, I think I kind of know what he was after. While sometimes Carl seems like a micro-optimizer, if he was really a micro-optimizer why wouldn't he have written a compiler instead of an interpreter?
Forth existed. Compiled Lisps existed. But he had a different concept.
Ren-C is a spiritual successor to Rebol while when Boron threw out infix it basically said it was not.
The gooey and bizarre game of how a: 10 | foo: function [a] [print a] | foo 20 works mechanically, under the hood, is Rebol's wild illusion. It looks so obvious and simple, like any scripting language, yet mechanically the underpinnings are nothing like the languages you think it is. You're using something that is capable of looking conventional, but you can throw twists and customizations into it no one would expect.
2
I'm interested in the depth of that game, while it seems Nenad is heavily biased to just implementing the illusion, as if Rebol is just a mundane and under-specified language which... uses square brackets, or something.
Or he has a fetish for words like "repend" and "remold" and "reform" and "rejoin", which is a fetish I think he will find hooks him up with a very few people.
 
 
9 hours later…
5:56 PM
First I forked rebol/rebol for r3n on github today thinking I'd keep it as 'original' and thinking I could fork @HostileFork 's version as current r3n next to it. Alas this was considered to be the same even after my renaming the original version. So I had a hard time removing the 2012 fork of REN-C ;-)
So now there is a REN-C fork at github.com/r3n
And yes it is a very very ugly profile picture, but it is better than the auto-generate one was.
 
@iArnold Since GitHub only allows text search of the root of all the forked repositories, it may be that when various commitments are made to stabilize for @ShixinZeng that we start from scratch and move the old historical repository aside. This will mean faster cloning and searchability.
But it's hard to say. While it may be cute to call an executable r3n, I do not want a number in the name of the language. :-)
 
Hi Brian, okay, so you are on terms with getting ren-c into a stabilized version?
You are typing too fast for me to formulate my answers in time ;-)
 
I have a few language and logo ideas if there's ever a real pressing need to pick one, but I'm completely unfazed by DocKimbel's Rebol legalisms.
So if I did anything about name picking, it would be because I wanted to and it was a good time to do so.
@iArnold Yes, I am on board with the creation of a stable branch.
 
I would consider it a great achievement of having it stabilized enough that (in this case Atronix) a company can put it trust in it.
@HostileFork +1 super dude!
 
The only caveat I have given is that the process of making that stable branch needs to be a process that others take involvement in. I'm not going to do it alone, for my health.
 
6:04 PM
@HostileFork It is not because of that. That was only a trigger for me to go on the path of claiming the r3n after my suggestion of the naming in the discussion following r3a and r3b/r3c
 
Several things have made me feel better about the idea of making some commitments. For instance: while the infix behavior things might seem esoteric to some people, I do not think it is... it's foundational.
 
And I got cooperation of github and acquired the r3n name
 
@iArnold Thank you. Well, I'll keep it in mind.
 
@HostileFork Yes it is and purist can always use 'traditional' ways to do things.
 
While I don't care for the name "freebol" I still kind of like the imagery of that page: freebol.org
 
6:06 PM
@HostileFork I did it for all of us and will share and take care of more than 1 guy have the key and I liked freebol as well
 
So it's more stuff to put in the bag of possibilities. Again, I am not personally violating any licenses, so there is no immediacy or concern from me.
Freebol was what Douglas Crockford wanted to call his version, when he was thinking about making one.
I do not believe the effort ever got beyond slight ideation.
 
6:36 PM
@Adrian You used to push pretty hard for variadics and a lot of things that are now implemented. I would be interested to see if the examples you were envisioning are supported now.
I've come to see "enfixing", left quoting, variadics, and all that to be integral to the "magic" of the system.
THEN and ELSE, as userspace designs, indeed feel magical to me--I'm not saying things are perfect, but that the experiments are bearing fruit.
 
7:29 PM
Not sure I like the name Freebol myself - not sure what about it makes it sound cheap. :-)
has that COBOL association without being a rebel
 
@Adrian Yeah I don't like it, also "freeball" being a slang for not wearing underwear. :-) But I was saying I kind of like the propeller graphic and kind of "eco-friendly" iconography.
 
@HostileFork - Gregg is asking if the | is a fixed keyword in ren-C
on AltME
how would you describe it?
 
@Adrian | as a natural is a signal for a discrete data type, it cannot be reassigned. Send him: trello.com/c/7RbcHZX3/…
It will be legal to make words with the spelling "|" but they will require construction syntax, and not serve the purpose. You should tell him ELSE is supposed to serve the kind of purpose he's talking about.
 
he didn't mention a purpose
@HostileFork, not sure if you're looking at the chat log from AltME - he simply said he doesn't see the value in |
 
@Adrian Well, he is the only cheerleader for Red's release among crickets, he's declared himself a die-hard Nenad fan, he says he's interested in these languages because of people not technology or technical merit. His own words. <shrug>
He's welcome to his opinion.
But it's not likely to be a very clever one.
 
7:51 PM
Well, he did not know Ren-C has variadics ....
 
posted on March 27, 2017 by throwaway7645

[Hacker News] Red programming language 0.6.2: LibRed and Macros (5 points)

 
@pekr I don't like to pick on Gregg, and if you want the truth I don't actually enjoy picking on Nenad either (for some definition of the word "enjoy"). But I have put a lot of thought into things, and I have a bit of a grudge against mindlessness.
I'm into software precisely because I think we could do better than biology.
Who lives in Rhode Island?
 
@HostileFork We only have a few billion years of random try and err against a few years of logic thinking.
 
@iArnold it's yet to be shown that logic is better than evolution
Red-lang is an example of evolution :)
 
@HostileFork Depends if logic is limited to 3 or 4 dimensions versus practice being more dimensional after all.
 
8:03 PM
@GrahamChiu The question is answered: evolution brought logic into existence and hence is the superior!
 
@GrahamChiu :-)
 
@MarkI where's our Solaris builds?
 
@GrahamChiu No pressure!
 
You are on Solaris Graham?
 
Of course he isn't ...
 
8:04 PM
My former boss was the sponsor of the fact that Richard Dawkins did not have to work (for anyone else), and could be a full-time advocate of evolution. He gave him a kind of "genius grant" to fund his writing, and evangelism. True story.
 
There are a few of these posts around .. you just get paid for having been smart
 
@HostileFork You used "evangelism" and "advocate of evolution" to describe the same thing ...
 
I'd prefer to be in the situation of not having to be paid
@iArnold I used to run my CGI on Solaris
 
@GrahamChiu Really? Which one? Is it still alive?
 
and my compkarori.com domain runs under solaris .. but the domain got hijacked
 
8:07 PM
gtg bbl
 
when I forgot to pay domain fees while on holiday
 
I am thinking of transition to TrueOS for my next laptop.
 
@iArnold Is that a fork of Windows 1 ?
 
And how come you're not using Kaj's OS?
 
8:09 PM
Syllable is dead, but not buried
 
@iArnold then what a waste of time for @HostileFork to port r3 to Syllable
 
If Red I/O would have been done in the beginning, Kaj probably would have been here still and working on porting Syllable to Red
 
Syllable didn't really have any emotional hook in it. It was lighter than most, but I think Haiku has more "personality".
It seemed to run ok. I respect anyone who can pull off an OS distribution at that level.
 
I still want to run r3 on webOS
which runs my TV
 
You have experienced the resistance from Haiku community. Kaj has faced that as well when dissatisfied Haiku programmers 'joined' Syllable
 
8:12 PM
Well, the Haiku people, like Rebol people, come from a history of marginalization... this is like talking about... competing tribes from different countries with grudges against each other.
And then that Forth guy. Jeez. Trying to shoot me from space, or whatever he was doing.
 
@HostileFork He's a well known nutter
 
Well, so am I, but I'm not stalking him.
 
Kaj was working on some grant scheme to port C code to Red (Red/System) code, but had to work on other projects to cover the costs of living, and got diverted to other things he considers important now.
 
but comp.lang.forth can be a bit difficult
 
@iArnold The loss of TryRebol is disappointing, I guess we just have to set up a new one.
I still say the best avenue for that, and it would be good for us to pin down an emscripten build anyway, is to have the engine that serves the answers be javascript.
Then we put it on Heroku or something. Heroku is free but they take you down for an hour a day or somesuch.
 
8:16 PM
@regarding the Kwatz! datatype, is this serious for ren-c?
 
So if you have a service that has to respond 24/7, the free option is going to likely not work for you.
 
@HostileFork The only contact I have had with Kaj is via the "dead" Syllable forum. Could ask if it is ever going to be back up or what is needed to get 'our' own.
 
@GrahamChiu I mentioned that, this seems to be World's big thing. And I mentioned that, if it was going to show off its virtues, it should be written up in articles somewhere. I am in favor of any virtuous idea. The name obviously would not be used.
 
what I'd like to do is to be able to load a string and have legal words become words and illegals like "," become strings
2
 
@GrahamChiu Well, that is KWATZ!, and the thing I will say about the difference between the way I work and some other people do is... I like to test my ideas, and put them through rings of fire. I love criticism and community critique, I hate edicts by fiat.
 
8:19 PM
maybe it just needs a parse on the data first before loading it
It's just another barrier for users to overcome when dealing with raw data
 
The loss of comments is also a drag. You can't really do good round trip load and saves.
So we could have COMMENT! and then figure out some way of shielding "normal" evaluation from it.
 
so the rebol evaluator does this anyway .. just need a way to not croak on illegal values
and convert them to legal values and then carry on
pay brian@HostileFork.com load "$10,000"
Do we really have to stick to 10'000 ??
Is that format only used in Europe?
 
@GrahamChiu afaik here we use mostly dot for thousand separator and comma for decimals. So 1.000.000,00 EUR ;-)
 
8:35 PM
@iArnold well, yes, rebol uses comma for decimal as well
so @HostileFork would only get $10
instead of $10k
 
@GrahamChiu Well, you've just raised the severity of the bug
 
:D
 
but I'm pretty sure in the english speaking world, a period is used for decimals and a comma is used for thousand separation
I wonder what Carl's rationale was for using european convention?
and dates are annoying as well
dd/mm/yyyy is default which suits me fine except my users are in the USA and are used to mm/dd/yyyy
 
Yeah the whole metric system suck Grah'm
 
well, I think we should think about a locale setting in the header if that's possible
 
8:40 PM
International dates are prefectly saved in the yyyymmdd format with regional representations to be set to whatever you like.
 
@iArnold yeah it's valid in rebol
 
The header is useless for that purpose, you then should release all your software with regional settings in it, sounds like a horror scenario to me
 
@iArnold really?
I'd just imagine it could be used for date and currency formats
What else is there?
 
yes. let them get display settings from a .ini file or something. Don't want a global product to be downloaded and ppl need to choose their local settings version, let alone me compiling for all regions
I would even rather switch to Java before doing that.
 
why can't the script grab the locale settings from windows?
and whereever they are in *nix
 
8:48 PM
I don't know, but that is an alternative better than providig it from the header.
 
@iArnold hmm. I need explanation as to how that would work
If I write dates in mm/dd/yyyy format in my script, how is your .ini file going to help you?
 
Rebol just takes away the burden by setting its standard (date, line ends)
Having the user set settings in an ini file you can depending on that info decide how to represent the data.
 
but if the dates are in the wrong format already in the file, how does that help you?
the ini file can't read the script author's intent
 
SO in practise this will be general settings for around the world and just as you want them in your region.
The dates are never in a wrong format internally.
 
@iArnold Ok, I think you're talking about how rebol behaves and it's not so different as using the OS locale
An ini file could over ride locale settings
but still doesn't help you with a file that has dates encoded in a different format
 
9:08 PM
@HostileFork, have you looked at Qt 5.8? They've revamped the GUI stuff - looks like it's even better for mobile apps. It'd be nice to hook up ren-Cpp to it.
 
9:20 PM
@Adrian got an example of a mobile app written in Qt 5.8
 
don't know if the one I did look at more closely was 5.8
let me check
IIRC, the main thing with > 5.6 was going towards more customizable UI widgets, rather than looking like a desktop UI transplanted to mobile
 
I see
 
@Adrian I'd like to do a mobile build of Ren Garden. We need a new build anyway, and I'm doing some makefile stuff to try and build the analogue to libRed in a proper, vs. hacky way
 
@Adrian I'd like to be able to turn old mobile phones into smart controllers for home use
 
I want to do a nice debugger demo too
 
9:24 PM
If this helps me get a UI, let's all pressure @HostileFork to support it :)
 
With a listbox that has stack frames, etc.
 
that'd be nice, @HostileFork
 
Linking to Qt is a giant force multiplier. It makes things so easy, where bashing your head into the wall at the hard core systems level of C89 all the time is a major pain
 
I wonder what sort of minimal effort would be needed to deal with/generate some kind of QML bindings
 
But, I want to play the game right. I want the evaluator to be within the bounds of small system comprehension.
 
9:26 PM
@HostileFork what does that mean in dummy talk?
 
also seem to recall that things are more modular in recent Qt versions so that you don't end up with the whole kitchen sink if you don't need it
 
@GrahamChiu Qt is a behemoth, if you depend on it, you're breaking one of the Rebol rules, which is dependency control.
I do not want to depend on it.
 
@HostileFork You would only depend on it for GUI
There's no need to use anything else from it
 
this is informative, especially for you @GrahamChiu - blog.qt.io/blog/2017/01/23/qt-5-8-released
 
I'm willing to do that, yes, and this is a Red/Ren-C split point of philosophy.
While on the systems side, we are playing more the same kind of game (when speaking of the interpreter)
 
9:29 PM
So, Qt can bring in http/s stuff as well?
 
@GrahamChiu, @HostileFork look at the size differences in 5.8
 
Qt Serialbus has now graduated to be fully supported in Qt 5.8. It allows you to use Qt APIs for device bus communications and protocols. While the API is rather generic, this version includes implementations for CAN and Modbus.

Qt Network and Web Sockets gained full support for TLS PSK cyphersuites. Qt Network now supports configurable Diffie-Hellman parameters and HTTP/2 in QNetworkAccessManager.

Qt Bluetooth gains BTLE Peripheral support on macOS and iOS as well as BTLE Central support on WinRT.
 
@Adrian You could always pare it down linking only what you needed, but that was a big build time. They're just making it easier. Good for them.
Qt has always won fans for competence and clarity, I've been a Gregg Irwin for them.
 
There's a lot of stuff there .. it would be nice to not have to reinvent the wheel which is rebol's raison d'etre
 
"Starting with Qt 5.7, we will require a C++11 compliant compiler to build and use Qt. This allows us to use many of the new features in Qt itself, and renew our codebase using features such as constexpr, move semantics, range-for and auto."
 
9:33 PM
We don't have OAuth2
 
one problem with Qt is the licensing - don't think you can make commercial apps without paid licensing
 
@Adrian that was before
Is it still true?
 
think so, but I might be wrong
 
And QML is VID?
 
@Adrian That was a long time ago.
 
9:35 PM
yeah, something like that
 
Richard Stallman picked a fight about it, and he was right to do it.
But people gave him plenty of haterade, and it created the whole Gnome/KDE fight.
 
@HostileFork, what was a long time ago?
 
@HostileFork more epic than the red/ren-c fight?
 
@Adrian Qt used to have dual licensing that was not satisfactory for FSF
@GrahamChiu Uh, significantly more consequential.
 
@HostileFork oh, only consequential if it affects me
 
9:37 PM
Well, consequential in terms of number of people and man-hours that were affected.
 
so you're saying that now you can build commercial apps with it?
 
@HostileFork not my worry :)
 
@Adrian The usual LGPL stuff. If you modify Qt itself, to make your app edgier or better or something, you have to open source that modification.
But you can keep your own app closed source
 
doesn't the static/dynamic linking come into consideration there?
 
As long as people can substitute a dynamic library of their own choice for the modified Qt you used.
Yes.
But if you static link an unmodified Qt, no one is going to pick on you.
 
9:39 PM
I thought it changed when Qt ownership changed
 
well, I don't know if for mobile use you'd be using dynamic linking
 
So, you can use it now without OS your app
 
You technically, probably, legally shouldn't statically link a closed source app.
But if you have a static build, and someone challenges you in court for some reason, and you deliver a non-static linked version and it runs against any Qt DLL, all's well.
 
Doesn't it make sense for rebol to leverage off existing works?
afterall it runs on non rebol os
 
when you provision mobile apps, don't you need to do that as a single file?
 
9:41 PM
so it's leveraging different kernels
 
It's not that you can't, for convenience, make a static build...you just need to be able to make a non-static build running against publicly available source, else you violate the license.
But you can honor the license if you publish your modifications to Qt. That's all. You don't have to publish your app's source.
No one is going to bug you unless they suspect you of foul play, or Tivoization, or whatever.
 
however, ancient rebols still run without the need mostly for different libraries so there's value in being independent but crippled
 
seems that you can link dynamically to Qt, for Android/iOS - wiki.qt.io/Licensing-talk-about-mobile-platforms
 
Rebol's philosophy is that it's better to build one's own steam engine because there's no guarantee that every town will have a bullet train
Elon Musk should take ren-c to Mars
I believe he wants to reboot humanity there
 
@GrahamChiu I think that, long term, a Qt build would even be rational for Atronix. But again, put in your mind the question of why Rebol beyond "I'm old and don't feel like learning new things".
 
9:47 PM
in the event the war with doc escalates
 
@redhappyshoes @TheHopefulHT @tombennett71 Then a wee plea to all: if you decide not to go to #REDlang - please let them know!
RT @Ms_Jenkinz: @redhappyshoes @TheHopefulHT @tombennett71 Then a wee plea to all: if you decide not to go to #REDlang - please let them kn…
RT @TheHopefulHT: Really loooing forward to #REDlang next weekend on home turf! Who is coming #womened #bameed? https://twitter.com/tombennett71/status/841333514175934464
 
eeek!!
I"m all for removing these feeds
 
It seems, that we might make people happier, removing Red entirely.
[Rebol] is fine.
No one here speaks for Red.
 
Graham Chiu has stopped a feed from being posted into this room
 
@GrahamChiu, this was developed with Qt 5.7 - it looks like a "regular" native app, i.e. not a Qt specific look.
 
9:52 PM
If we want perfect parity, I will promise to not speak about Red here. Is this an acceptable contract?
 
@HostileFork yes
and not talk about Doc
 
I don't have a problem with Red being talked about here. Why does it matter?
 
@Adrian No, it's just @HostileFork .. we can do what we want
It's not our contract
 
@GrahamChiu Hey wait, no, I meant we banish Red entirely, not just me.
 
oh - then sure
 
9:54 PM
No deal if it's just me
 
@HostileFork sorry, we already agreed
Can't renege in front of all these witnesses
 
Well I guess if we change the room name to just [Rebol], and if Doc keeps quiet, I might hold my tongue for at least a while.
 
room topic changed to [Rebol]: to make it simple: building [ blocks ] rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq [homoiconicity] [jit] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [red]*
 
There are about a dozen deleted drafts to Gregg and Doc that I've wanted to write but then said "nah", don't say that. :-)
 
that's going to screw up rebolbot
:(
@RebolBot are you now screwed?
 
9:57 PM
Doesn't RebolBot use the room number?
 
@GrahamChiu What do you mean?
 
whew!
@HostileFork yes, but the room title is also there I think
I'd have to check the sources
 
I think it's worth pointing out that 291 is a small chat room number. If you start a new one now, you get something a bit later than 138621
 
yeah, we were late to the game
291 is quite a large number
Was I the second member here?
Or third? I can't recall now
 
Day one conversation is "first day" in the log
I was either in Hawaii or about to go
 
10:01 PM
anyway, the new contract here is red/doc are off-topic for @HostileFork
3 room owners were present at this decision :)
 
Why don't we keep it off topic in general?
As opposed to just for me.
 
you're being serious?
you really don't need to mirror Doc in that aspect
 
@HostileFork because the room owners don't agree
but it was time to remove that feed which was plain annoying
Pity we couldn't stop those rEDlang people from using that #tag
 
@GrahamChiu, read the section on Quick Controls 2 here, wrt mobile use - blog.qt.io/blog/2016/06/16/qt-5-7-released
 
@Adrian so what does that mean in non license talk?
I have no idea of what all these licenses mean
Anyway, I have no plans to build commercial apps using Qt
 
10:11 PM
if you read the previous link I posted from the wiki, they explain it better there
you can build commercial apps with dynamic linking even with a non-commercial license
even static linking is suggested as not being something that would be contested
 
What I want to do is replace these
With a single voice controlled panel
The left light switch is RF controlled, and the right is a RF transmitter for my room heating
Seems redundant to have both there
Wife is telling me that there are 38 ways of referring to wife in Chinese ... learning a new language is so difficult :(
 
10:28 PM
@johnk you also use rpi and not just arduino?
 
10:59 PM
@ShixinZeng thanks for fixing Echo
 
@GrahamChiu No problem.
 
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