« first day    last day (9 days later) » 

7:04 PM
@Shog9 nonsense. It would've been closed and deleted as a rant if anyone else had posted it. The post you linked to is not a good example for "see, it's not just Joel" because it's about a product that is part of SO and directly relates to an action that SO can take about its own practices. This was just a rant saying "Trump and his policies are divisive and not what I believe in"
 
@TylerH Nope.
First sentence:
> I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration.
Getting tired of folks trying to spin this into, "Joel attacks Trump"
So I'm gonna quote that a few more times
Very. First. Sentence:
> I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration.
Not, "Trump and his policies are divisive"
Not, "Screw you, Trump supporters"
> I am extremely upset by President Trump’s executive order on immigration.
You wanna argue that's irrelevant? Good - there's a solid argument to be made there. We can discuss that.
 
You're spinning my words by attempting to make them sound like they are spinning Joel's
I didn't say he attacked trump
 
@TylerH You wanna argue a strawman instead of what's actually written? Get used to return in kind.
 
I'm not arguing any strawman fallacy. I'm refuting your defense of keeping the question open for reasons other than 'because ceo'
 
@TylerH and I'm suggesting that your crystal ball isn't as clear as it seems.
1 hour ago, by Shog9
right. The effect works both ways: Joel gets a lot more attention and good will because of who he is, but he also knows how to write such that he gets that attention, which is why he is who he is. Meanwhile, folks who might've just shrugged it off have in some cases stuck to this because of the perception that it's being treated specially (which of course it is, but... See previous sentence)
 
7:09 PM
I don't think perception of Joel's oratory ability is relevant here
 
@TylerH of course it is.
 
TBH, I think if anyone other than Joel wrote such a post, it would've ended up having a similar fate, except the [featured] part
 
Why? So if I post a sweeping, impassioned, beautifully stated rant about Jif vs Peter Pan, it's OK because I spoke so eloquently?
 
The post we're discussing got more upvotes in the first few minutes than most meta posts get in their entire history. Before it got a single downvote, or close vote, it was already well-received. That is simply not the case for your average rant.
 
@Shog9 right, overwhelmingly because of things other than Joel's oratory skills, which are above average at best
to be fair much of the reason is perception, but not of his writing skills
 
7:11 PM
I blame Twitter
 
So you wanna compare apples to apples here, it becomes really hard because:
1) most posts like this are not well-written
2) most posts like this are not well-received
3) most posts like this do not have the CEO backing them
4) most posts like this do not have employees backing them
You want to pick out one of several factors here and ignore the rest
But the truth is, there are numerous people on meta who could probably pull off a political discussion, at least for a while - yeah, it'd probably get closed eventually, but the "anyone else would get sat on" narrative doesn't match my experience at all.
 
It is hard, yes, but let's look at the facts:

1. Political posts are off-topic on Stack Overflow, and, therefore, discussion of politics and political posts are off-topic on Meta Stack Overflow.
2. The CEO posts a political post (rant or not) that is not directly related to the subject matter of the site, disregarding whether it's a divisive post or not.

Do we close this post as off-topic, which it surely is? Or do we provide an exception for the CEO because he's the CEO and can do whatever he wants?
 
@TylerH ok, that's a discussion we can have without speculation
 
I think the biggest argument to be made is that SO is not for political discussion, and that's why Joel can post it (or any other employee, for that matter) and no one else can. In all fairness Joel speaks for SE itself, now if the SE policy is unclear or foggy, Joel (and co.) is expected to clear it up. In this case, he's simply nipping it before it gets out of hand.
 
It was in fact closed as off topic a few times
 
7:15 PM
@Shog9 I think that's what the whole debate has revolved around all the time, just at times with the topic of the discussion not being always that obvious.
 
1. Political discussion is off-topic on meta except as it relates to Stack Overflow. I've already given examples there. So the critical test is always: how does this relate?
 
@Shog9 Can you point me to those examples?
 
@TylerH you just responded to one of them!
Stay focused for a minute
 
Pekka's feature request?
That's not political
 
you kidding?
 
7:16 PM
@TylerH wait a minute and let Josh elaborate first
 
@Shog9 No. He's asking for Stack Overflow to change its own policy regarding one of its features, Careers (now Jobs).
 
2. Yes, if you own the site you can post whatever the hell you want. That's irritating, but it's also completely expected. I can post whatever I want on my own website. Might annoy people, but I can still do it.
 
user1596138
Just joining to repeat what everyone has read a thousand times but not listened to.
 
@TylerH doesn't make it not political. Does make it relevant, which, as I said, is the critical test - hence why I used it as an example.
 
user1596138
That post is just political banter... You guys should know better.
 
7:17 PM
@Shog9 Is it also in the best interest of the company?
 
@Shog9 the fact that it does not relate to politics is what makes it not political
 
@Shog9 how many people does it cause to leave, though?
 
@Shog9 Anyway, to stay focused: if this is the case, and company policy, then we need to stop saying Stack Overflow and Meta are community-driven, community-moderated sites
 
Not the rant itself, but the way it was moderated
 
user1596138
It's like when a bunch of users got banned by @TimPost for being on the "wrong side" of the "Gamer Gate" shit. Keep your personal opinions off the site, especially if you're a mod.
 
user1596138
7:18 PM
<reason/>
 
Or you should post in bold in the Help Center somewhere that "The company and CEO reserve the right to override any of these rules as necessary"
 
We had more or less this same debate over the SOPA banner, if y'all recall - folks arguing that it was exceptionalism (it was) and that it was irrelevant to Stack Overflow (it wasn't).
 
@TylerH well, they are community-driven and moderated, with the employees having the last word though. That's how it's always been TBH
 
@TylerH - Why? Because you disagree with one post?
 
@TravisJ No, because that seems to be the message the company employee, Shog, is sending
 
7:20 PM
No, he hasn't said that at large this is how it is. It is specifically related to Joel's post.
 
@Shog9 In that case SO as a whole was impacted though. Now you're trying to compare apples to oranges.
 
"If you own the site you can post whatever the hell you want"
That seems pretty clear to me
And that's fine, and reasonable, but that should be explicitly referencable somewhere (say, Help Center), so that, next time this happens, a mod can shut everyone up by linking to it
 
Perhaps you got a little too used to having collusion work for you on meta. It isn't your site.
 
@TylerH Funny story: the last place I worked for our CEO was allowed to do whatever he wanted. He had a private garage in the back of our company building (with about 7 cars there), had freight for his personal use regularly shipped to our company, and basically did whatever the hell he wanted. You have that everywhere. The nice thing about owning a company is that you can do whatever the f--- you want with it. It's your company.
 
instead of us having a meta war for 4 days over something the CEO did
 
7:21 PM
Hang on, I have another couple of relevant post (because, again, this has happened repeatedly in the past so I have lots of material)
 
If Joel decides tomorrow that SO is now 'The Pink Pony Brigade', do you know what say we have in it? None.
Zero.
 
@TravisJ I don't know what you're referring to but it doesn't seem like you're trying to be constructive here and it feels a little like you're attacking me personally
 
30
A: Find a better mechanism for Stack Exchange-facilitated recruitment attempts

Shog9I'm so sick of this nonsense. The only sane reason for posting something like that here is to solicit discussion and debate from the community. Meta sure as hell is not the best way to promote something, a fact I wish we could convince the nightly supplement spammers of; compared to SO, it ba...

39
A: Should Stack Exchange Inc promote its pet projects on meta sites?

Shog9YES. Not doing so would be a huge disservice to the folks on these sites. We learned this lesson the hard way, long ago: trying to do anything for the benefit of a community without encouraging feedback from that community always ends badly. This is literally why Meta sites exist - to bring us ...

 
Sorry, should I guise it better and make it seem like I am instead building up false cases to attack that resemble you?
 
these two, again, is directly in the interests of the company @Shog9
 
7:23 PM
Because that is what you are doing to Joel
 
@bwoebi folks still got real upset about 'em
Same arguments in both cases:
1. Not relevant to Stack Overflow
2. Only the company can get away with this
So here we are again
 
except.. those are features the company is implementing into the application. This policy on the other hand isn't.
 
Yeah, yeah, now they're different.
But at the time, folks were every bit as upset about them being discussed on meta as y'all are about this discussion.
That's why I have two answers handy. You don't spend time writing a defense of something that everyone already agrees is appropriate.
 
yeahh
 
So we have this history of the company posting stuff on meta that, arguably, most others could not get away with posting.
 
7:26 PM
@Shog9 Folks will get upset about everything. I personally am not upset, just disagreeing and trying to figure whether "1. Not relevant to Stack Overflow" is general policy for employees to deliberately ignore.
 
And we have this history of the company posting stuff on meta that, arguably, isn't relevant to Stack Overflow.
 
hmm
 
And the question becomes... Do you want to debate #1 or #2?
 
So, if the dev team has the ability to overturn any decision, should they be given the tools to, so that it's official?
 
both?
 
7:27 PM
Question of clarification: So political posts are OK so long as they get significant upvotes?
 
Because... #1 - only the company can get away with it - is sorta pointless. If you're wrong, you just wasted a bunch of time. If you're right... Well, shit, you've just proved that SO Inc can get away with posting stuff on the website it owns and operates.
I think #2 has a lot more lasting value
 
user4639281
Does the content posted have to be offensive though?
 
what?
 
@Shog9 Well, we're debating #2 in the context of #1? … but yeah, if we remove #1 from the question, the discussion still needs to be hold somewhen somewhere
@TinyGiant Huh?
 
Look, @Tiny... I'm taking time for this discussion that arguably would be better spent dealing with a troll who is posting unbelievably vulgar stuff on another site, directed at a moderator who did nothing to deserve it. So I may have a little bit of a high bar for "offensive" just now.
If you don't mind, please be less assuming of what is obviously offensive?
 
7:30 PM
The language used directly insults those who oppose joels view. intentionally i'd expect, but nontheless. Edits were made to fix it, but were rolled back.
 
user4639281
^ that
 
@bwoebi If you remove #1, you're left deciding whether or not to be bothered by the fact that this isn't a pure democracy.
@KevinB I reviewed that last night, listened to folks' arguments, and made an edit.
 
@Shog9 it does bother me. The community is better off if it's lead by example.
 
The edits folks were trying to make that crammed the post full of weasel words were not much of an improvement IMHO.
 
@Shog9 The question is how apparent the oligarchy shall be.
 
7:32 PM
@bwoebi well, who decides that?
I occasionally post "questions" on meta that are just stats dumps, or pleas for a change in attitude.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 I and many others still find it offensive.
 
@Shog9 in this case, the oligarchs… and that's a bit where the problem lies. They can deliberately set their own limits.
 
Yup.
 
@Shog9 Right… and that's always in the context of SO too…
 
I understand all your views, but everybody needs to step back for a moment, the one posting is the owner of SE!, it can never be off-topic, he his asking for advice, while he could just do what ever he likes... all discussions like "now everybody can do this is just stupid", whether you like or not Joel owns the company, if he is upset, have ideas or other problems this directly effects SE, just give advice with respect for who owns and had the idea for this platform.
 
7:33 PM
@bwoebi which is why I find the "not relevant to Stack Overflow" argument a lot more interesting
 
user4639281
I don't think that the be nice policy is a policy that the company should deviate from, whether they are allowed to or not.
 
This used to be more obviously relevant to meta before the split.
 
Because... I mean, I've posted a lot more stuff that I only "got away with" because I'm an employee than Joel ever has.
 
There was all sorts of fun in Icelandic fridays prior to the split.
 
Y'all want me to stop doing that, well... No.
@TravisJ those were mostly ancient history before the split
 
7:34 PM
@Shog9 The users who don't agree, have to go. … And that's by the way why constitutions exist in this world.
 
65
Q: Why isn't Meta funny anymore?

EarlzI remember when I first began to frequent Meta there were jokes galore. And the moderators seemed pretty lax with humorous questions (and sometimes answers). Then, something changed and Jeff began to lock and delete joke questions, and even joke tags. Why exactly did such a change occur? Is i...

 
I appreciate that the owner choose to post his problems, doubts on meta...
 
@bwoebi "have to go"?
 
@Shog9 Actually, I don't. But then again wouldn't others have gotten away with a stat dump for a question?
 
@Shog9 - To some degree, but I thought that it showed actual culture as opposed to such a cut and dry, thick line in the sand, yes or no mantra that some people seem to think meta should be now.
 
7:36 PM
@Shog9 In the sense of if they do not feel like they want to be part of SO, their only choice is leaving.
 
@JanDvorak I'm posting questions, not answers. I'm not asking a question or trying to resolve a point. I'm using data that non-employees don't have access to. Those posts - look, for example, at my various "2016 - A year in ..." posts this past month - are very dependent on my status as an employee.
 
@PetterFriberg - That is a nice sentiment :)
 
whatever decision Joel makes, reflects directly on SE do we not like that he ask us for advise first?
 
@bwoebi That's hardly dependent on a meta post
Folks decide that every day
 
@Shog9 - I look forward to posts like that.
 
7:37 PM
@Shog9 Is it not possible for the public to do stat-dump questions with publicly-available data?
 
@Shog9 I personally agree with you. Others are more rigid in their thinking.
 
@Shog9 Watching the close war on that question might have swayed many
 
It is a nice reprieve from "why did my flag get declined" or "lets get rid of this really old question because it is causing problems"
 
We get tons of deletion requests from folks who explicitly state they don't want to be part of Stack Overflow because [someone left a comment on their post | they got a downvote | they saw someone doing something they didn't like | it's too addicting | they got q-banned]
 
user4639281
@petter him being the CEO does mean that offensive content should not be corrected
 
7:38 PM
@Shog9 the "it's too addicting" made me smile
 
@EBrown sure. And sometimes they do:
212
Q: I estimate 10% of the links posted here are dead. How do we deal with them?

AndyTL;DR: Approximately 10% of 1.5M randomly selected unique links in the March 2015 data dump are unavailable. To be more precise, that is approximately 150K dead links. Motivation I've been running into more and more links that are dead on Stack Overflow and it's bothering me. In some cases, I...

@bwoebi yeah, it's funny but totally serious we get a non-trivial number of deletion requests for that reason.
 
@Shog9 I just wondered because I keep daily stats on certain metrics of every SE site, I may want to dump trends in data on Meta.SE or Meta.SO sometimes.
 
@EBrown And I think you should be allowed to.
 
@TinyGiant him begin CEO makes tons off difference (you may like or not), I really hope he continues to speak to us on meta, instead of doing what he wants...
 
And I think I should be allowed to.
 
7:40 PM
@TinyGiant - He is just calling it what it is.
 
I don't think meta needs as much policing as we give it
 
@Shog9 Absolutely. If you have the data, share it.
 
I kinda miss the old... Friday fun.
 
@Shog9 - I agree.
 
I miss folks posting their opinions.
 
7:40 PM
So... should I have been okay with the question entirely?
 
\o/
 
I miss editing questions by trolls into something that's actually interesting and can be answered.
I miss certain trolls posting popular ideas in an intentionally inflammatory tone so that I can shoot them down more easily.
Ok, don't actually miss that one quite so much.
Hard to miss something that just won't go away.
But the rest... Yeah. I think we've gotten too serious.
 
I think the whole network has done that.
I've mentioned it in the main chatroom of my home site several times.
 
The "fun" kinda died out on MSE when it was MSO because it had to serve as Meta to the Network.
But after the split... That's not so necessary.
 
I think it's partially motivated by certain changes and announcements that the staff (including you) have made.
Some of them motivated by user requests.
Some, not so much.
 
7:43 PM
?
 
@Shog9 Sorry, I got called away. So, there's some precedence for posting normally off-topic things on Meta, but so far these are about company initiatives, either asking for input or they are posted on MSE rather than MSO. So, sure, we can say that, in some specific exceptional cases, stuff that doesn't relate to the purpose of MSE/O is OK, like specific company initiatives or company-relevant actions. That's reasonable. So, what about political rants that aren't even specific calls to action?
 
If we allow political statements like this, perhaps we should allow anyone to post them.
 
@Shog9 Too long and off-context here, I can email you later if you like.
 
sure
 
@TylerH is ideas, problems that CEO have off-topic on meta?
 
7:44 PM
The question didn't actually ask anything, and it didn't actually call for any specific action.
 
@TylerH that's where I've been trying to get here. If we can put aside the hurt and irritation about exceptionalism, we can discuss whether / how this is relevant.
 
@Shog9 You can either email me, or I'll (try) to remember to email you later. I start work in 1 hour 15 minutes (1600 EST) and get off work at 0030 EST.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 you mean all of that unnecessary policing by mods and employees yesterday?
 
(I still believe it was so relentlessly defended [read: reopened by mods] primarily because of the poster's position in the company, but we don't have to bring that into the discussion right now)
 
Yeah, that reopen war was kinda annoying
 
7:45 PM
I know you have access to my email, feel free to send one out if you like.
 
@TylerH I tend to agree that that's a bit of an issue. I think folks came through with some interesting notions in spite of it, interpreting the post as a request for ideas even though it didn't explicitly ask for them.
We're gonna start following up on at least one of them this afternoon.
 
@Shog9 perhaps you just somewhere shall declare on Meta.SE that it may happen in order to have to show that it's company policy to allow employees to put personal pleas on meta.
 
@Shog9 To be fair, I do agree with what Joel believes and was saying. And I believe I could have easily edited it into basically a question asking the exact same thing without changing any of his words, just, maybe, adding a few
but I figured I would get reverted back/shat on by a CM for doing that
 
@bwoebi or maybe we just do it often enough that folks stop being horrified by it
 
@TylerH Some of the words (I.e. 'stupid') definitely deserved to be changed or removed and Shog did that.
 
7:46 PM
@Shog9 Yes, I really like the Stack Overflow Foundation
 
It wouldn't get nearly as heated if it were left to its ends regarding the closevotes instead of the CMs pushing hard against the community.
 
if StakOverflow/StackExchange want to do a public political announcement, they can do it on their company blog
 
@Shog9 that's a solution too, but if infrequently enough, probably still evoking such a discussion each time … better just have it once at the declaration… perhaps…
 
or better - do it on twitter, where all the worthless announcments are made
 
user4639281
@EBrown he removed one of the offensive words. The rest remain
 
7:47 PM
@tereško no, if it's a company policy/statement it should be through the blog, not twitter
 
I also think 'un-American' has no place in that question, that's moderately offensive to me.
 
@tereško so... That's another can of worms; suffice to say, we're considering ditching blog comments for meta posts because meta is easier to moderate.
Disqus has crappy moderation tools compared to our sites
 
can't you build a blog on top of SO engine?
it's not like you don't have developers there
 
user4639281
@Shog9 so... why hasn't anyone said that until now? That seems like a rather important detail.
 
Simply because it's very wrong to say something like that is un-American, but other than that the post itself isn't too bad. (@Shog9 perhaps you can consider an edit for that?)
 
7:49 PM
@TinyGiant I did, although I probably said it in blog comments so no one read it.
 
I hope Tim's post (no pun intended) puts some significant effort toward clarifying the exceptions to the "community moderated by you" consensus that has previously been cultivated on meta
 
@tereško They tried for the site blogs IIRC, but it wasn't popular.
 
@EBrown I'm probably biased, but I don't find that particularly problematic. I mean, if that's a problem then we got a statue in New Jersey somewhere that's probably a lot more offensive.
 
@EBrown so?
 
user4639281
@Shog9 I'm talking about after any of the countless times someone expressed confusion as to why this was not posted on the blog.
 
7:50 PM
@Shog9 Eh, it rubs me a bit the wrong way, but you already got rid of 'stupid' which is an acceptable compromise I suppose. Out here 'un-American' is a serious insult, but I'm out in the country so it may be different.
 
@Shog9 as a Latvian, I can say this: I don't care if something is unamerican or not
 
user4639281
Like, the very first time someone asked that. Or even right off the start
 
@tereško I don't think it was a good/stable platform to begin with. I recall seeing something about it a short time ago when the blogs were going away.
 
@EBrown it's pretty serious here too, if applied to a person
 
@tereško Yeah, a lot of the language really showed some American exceptionalism
 
7:51 PM
I am un-American as fuck, deal with it
 
@Shog9 Right, and in this particular context it's hard to not draw the conclusion between the action and the person. (I don't disagree with your sentiment that the question is not about the person, I just don't like the possibility of drawing that conclusion.)
 
USA kinda is exceptional
and I say that as an unamerican
 
@JanDvorak Yes, and more relevant than most countries because SO is based there
still...
 
@TylerH ... funny, especially since that's one of things the harp on about regarding Trump's opinions
 
@EBrown Eh... At some point this becomes that story of the shopkeeper who kept editing his sign until it said nothing.
 
7:52 PM
@TylerH yeah, that HQ placement kinda makes US politics sorta relevant for SO
 
@JanDvorak insofar as they affect internet access, IMO
and not beyond
 
@Shog9 Aye, never said it was a requirement, just that it would make me feel a little better.
 
Yes, you could misinterpret it. But the obvious interpretation in context (wherein context also includes "unconstitutional") is that the policy is not in keeping with our core philosophies as a nation.
 
@Shog9 at which point we can finally delete the post
 
at least, with regard to what's on-topic to discuss here
 
7:54 PM
@TylerH But beyond does affect SE/SO. If the U.S. government deports all immigrants (even green-card holders) then we lose a lot of valuable SE/SO staff. Is that not important to the company, network and user base?
 
@JanDvorak If a CEO makes a post on meta and there's no one around to hear it, is it considered on-topic?
 
Yes. You need five people or one mod to close a question.
 
Or is it in a suspended state inbetween on and off topicness
 
histolock?
 
@JanDvorak I asked for that and it was rejected
 
7:55 PM
Why the heck do you like to close and delete it?, what is the really motive?... you have the CEO upset etc, which effects directly SE, why do we want him to shutup?
 
of course it's locked now by Tim
 
@TylerH A situation like this is very important to SE/SO because, as you saw, the lead of the Mobile Development team has been very distraught from it. What's that mean? Mobile Development may (probably will) stagnate and that affects all of us.
 
I'd love to see the transcript of the mod/cm discussion on what to do about the post, if there were ever a chance of hell freezing over and them releasing that :-P
 
@EBrown well, not just that (although that ain't great). We also run something of a job-finding service, which funds the company by getting employers to pay for job ads; could throw a wrench into that too. Also (and I mentioned this yesterday) it's just kinda bad precedent, since the core function of the site depends on being available worldwide; it's bad enough we have China behind a firewall, if we end up with US law dictating that we have to filter requests that'd be crippling.
 
@Shog9 enforcing borders is one of the governments roles. How it is done can be discussed and you can definitely say, that the initial executive order legitimately unreasonable, but I actually think that's how Trump operates - he starts out any negotiation with outrageous demands in order to have direction in which to compromise
 
7:57 PM
@Shog9 Aye, but I wanted to apply it to this specific issue. :)
 
@tereško Yes, he has said this himself, and it's in his book
 
@tereško so, consider this a negotiation I guess? Awful crappy that we gotta be involved in that, but so be it I guess.
 
@TylerH I read sci-fi
 
something like "come into a negotiation, drop a bomb/unreasonable demand, and then work backward"
 
@PetterFriberg if we want to turn MSx into a blog for the company, then yeah, it's on-topic. Otherwise...
 
7:58 PM
When you demand everyone give you $1,000,000 at gunpoint, for example, they're much more willing to give you $1,000 at gunpoint instead as a 'compromise' than if you just started out with asking $1,000 in the first place
It's how we normalize more extreme views as a society in general
 
If the rule is that this is okay (as a discussion, not as a blog post), I think it should be okay for anyone.
 
@Shog9 I'm bouncing, work time. I'll try to remember to email you about that thing later tonight (like, 0100EST/UTC-4) if you're up for it, or I can wait for another day.
 
@JanDvorak yeah I want this, if SE or it's CEO or Shog have a problem that may effect SO I like that he/she post it on meta... it can not be compared to a question of a regular user,
 
@JanDvorak yes, if only they'd come out and say it. Though to Shog's point, it'd help if they did it a bit more often and obviously such that people didn't freak out every time it happens
 
@EBrown can't say when I'll reply, but send when you have time
 

« first day    last day (9 days later) »